[SPNC_Chris]

http://www.thepilot.com/golf/072303Renovations.html

Reactions? They're messing with Ross. I'm sure there will be opinions here.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Chris,

Considering Howard Ward's other article, I don't think this guy will get a whole bunch of respect here.

HOWARD WARD: Spare Me The Purist’s Pandering

http://www.thepilot.com/golf/072303HWard.html

Ran, does this guy know that you exist down there?

[RJ_Daley]

But you show me a man who would prefer going to England or Scotland and playing an ugly, poor-conditioned course to something like one of our Pinehurst area courses, and I’ll show you a man who is badly in need of some mental renovation.

Save for about 4 PInehurst area courses, I'll take the trip to the old sod, thank you very much!  A least we have Dr Katz on call...

RSG and the like will most likely be around long after Mr. Ward is pushing up daisy's in his "green acres".

[SPNC_Chris]

Funny you looked up the other article. Reading it, I cringed at the thought at how bad you guys would tear him up if you read it.

RJ, I would, however, say that there are probably more than 4 decent courses around here.

Back to my original post though, the changes to Pine Needles are quite relevant to many GCA discussions.

[DTaylor18]

I am dissapointed at this news.  The course is long enoungh for anyone other than PGA Tour players.  I played there in April and my friend and I enjoyed it better than Pinehurst #2.  I'm not saying it's a better course, but it was extremely charming and fun.  That short par 5 on the back wasn't the hardest hole, but it did offer risk reward and was fun for our group which included both a low and high handicapper.  As a huge fan of DOnald Ross courses, I know nothing about the guy they hired, but I hope he is up for the task.  Pine Needles is a great Ross course that should not be drastically changed.

[Dunlop_White]

John Fought III was a member of the 1976 BYU Cougar golf team that finished second at the NCAA Championships. His teammates that year were Mike Reid, Jim Nelford, Mike Brannan, Jim Blair, and "Pat McGowan"

Interestingly,"Pat McGowan" is Peggy Kirk Bell's son-in-law, who is a partner and teaching professional at Pine Needles............. The other son-in-law, Kelly Miller, a great national amateur golfer, is also good friends with Fought from what I understand.

Like it or not, this is precisely how an architect with little, if any, prior restoration experience was hired to come across country to work on a Donald Ross gem. From what I understand, Fought is eager to learn the restoration trade as he has visited many other sites. Fought also has spent numerous hours in the Tufts archives.

Kris Spence, from Greensboro, NC, who just finished restoring Mimosa Hills and Grove Park in the western part of the state, would have been a good choice. If Pritchard, Forse, Weed, or Silva were not over-extended, then they would have been good choices as well. These guys have more experience and a track record.

Fought may very well do a great job....As for Hole 15, it is always good advice to make long par 4's even longer to coincide with today's technological advances. If Ross meant for it to be a long par 4, then make it even longer today to bring the old landforms in the landing area back into play, but don't change the par.....especially to an indistinguishable 3  shotter simply because you have room.

Meanwhile, there isn't as much room to extend Hole 14, but enough to keep it an interestingly short Par 5 with risk/reward site lines from the tee. Instead Fought and company have decided to change this hole to a Par 4.

This entire project appears to be more about creating a championship venue for the MEN, than anything else. Knowing the people involved, the Ross flavor will be preserved at all cost.

[T_MacWood]

With PN being in the heart of Donald Ross country (and I would guess that Pinehurst/SPines is considered the spiritual home of the Ross Society)...the Tufts Archives, Ross's home, six courses, including his masterpiece #2--they have to be all over this project.

Other than a change in the routing, PN appeared to me to be pretty well preserved...is that not the case?

[Dunlop_White]

I do not know whether the Donald Ross Society Bd. members were consulted. I was not! Brad Klein likely has spoken to Kelly, but I don't know that for a fact.
I would like to believe that someone on the Societies Bd. gave their input considering that we hold some functions at Pine Needles about every third year.

[RJ_Daley]

SPNC_Chris

There may be more than 4 courses in that area that are quite good, but I'm thinking there aren't more than about 4 that I'd rather play over the many found about the old sod that I'd rather play.  Strictly a personal choice you know...

Dunlop's report is alarming.  If they want to lengthen and mess with pars at PN, would MidP be far behind?  And, if 7000 yards gets them as far back as possible, then it is still only a marginal men's venue.  Is this designed to deal with the Michele Wie's of the brave new world?

Fought is a competitive archie who like all the others desires to ply his trade. If he gets the gig based on a cosy relationship with the Bells, well then he will make or break his reputation.  If he smooths out and over works the Ross flavor of the course, he will pay the price in the end.  Didn't Silva face the same anxiety before he did Seminole and Biltmore?  But, Silva came out of it with good reputation of being true to Ross, or at least that is my understanding.  Does anyone feel differently?

[SPNC_Chris]

I have a question relating to Pine Needles. While most people on this board would consider Pine Needles a well-done and well-preserved Ross treasure, how do others see the course?

PN got much press from its two Women's Opens. It's also written about quite a lot as being one of the most women-friendly golf facilities in the world. Add to that its 6,700 yard length. Is there starting to be a perception (outside of this board of course) that Pine Needles, while nice, is more of a "woman's course?" Could they feel as they have to lengthen the course just to appeal to the vanity or machismo of the male golf tourist?

While it has bounced back some, the golf trade around here has been hurting since 9/11/01. Everyone is fighting for a piece of a much smaller pie.  Are some people overlooking PN because of its feminine-leaning reputation? If so, I obviously think they're making a mistake, but misguided people spend their dollars elsewhere.

[Mike Erdmann]

It's unfair for me to prejudge the outcome, but I just have huge concerns about Fought doing this work.  As Dunlop states, Fought has done virtually no restoration work and it would appear that his selection is based on friendship with the current ownership/management rather than his restoration qualifications.  It's clearly a renovation and not a restoration, and that opens the door to Fought leaving his style upon the course.  I've played the majority of the courses Fought has designed, and that's what gives me the biggest concerns.  If his bunkering at The Reserve (South) represents his 'interpretation' of Tillinghast, I worry how he'll 'interpret' Ross bunkers.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I can understand Dunlop's concern.  The reason that Bob Cupp (who partnered with Fought on several of the highly-regarded courses in OR) got the "restoration" at his Old Town Club in 1996 was through mutual friendships.  Dunlop is not entirely pleased with the results.

Bill Coore was lobbying hard to get that job, as he loved the course dearly since his days on the Wake Forest golf team, where OTC was their home course (see his interview on GCA).

Maxwell thought very highly of Old Town.

[Dunlop_White]

Guys, Please don't get me wrong. As I said before, Fought may do a very good job at Pine Needles. He cares about the course and is eager to get involved with restoration. This is evident from the amount of time he has spent at other courses and at the Archives. Sometimes the best work he done by a newcomer in the restoration business, someone who wants to get his name out. I know the people at Pine Needles do care about their Ross heritage and will see to it that it is preserved, while adapting the course to the length of the modern game.

[T_MacWood]

I agree with those who believe Fought is an odd choice. I would hope the Ross Society would monitor & assist this project.

[Ron Kern]

I recall that during the 50th ASGCA meeting, the then super did a presentation regarding the remodeling work that he had done on the bunkering at Pine Needles prior to the Women's US Open.  I think some of the bunkers were relocated at that time.

Ron Kern

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thaks for posting this Mike. I have been spending the better part of the morning trying to figure out a way to capture the images and put them up without the link.

The only positive of this Pine Needles thing is Brad Klein. At least they got that right.

[Ran Morrissett]

Lads,

Take heart! I have seen the plans and all shall be well.

As a generalization, the two key components to Pine Needles are:

1) the lay of the land in the driving areas. Holes like 1, 2, 6, 7, 11, and 12 have crest of hills/ridges in the driving area. Whereas the golf ball once hit into these crests, the decent golfer now carries them and gets huge kicks forward. Many of the holes listed above are (were) tough two shotters where players now hit the green with short irons. The need for a variety of approach shots to the greens has been lost. Part of Fought's master plan is to re-capture this playing aspect. By extending the tees back, the better golfer's tee ball should once again hit into the upslope of these hills and leave the golfer with a range of clubs into the greens. This is as Ross intended.

2) The green complexes. Having played Pine Needles numerous times since moving here a few years ago, I have come to view PN as one of Ross's finest courses tee to green. Its weakness is in its greens. The history of PN is a tough one with as it opened in 1928. From then until after Ross's death when Peggy Kirk Bell bought it in 1953, the course suffered through the brutal economic and world times. And the greens took the biggest hit. The character in the greens reflected in some of Ross's notes/drawings in the Tufts Archives simply aren't there today and have been MIA for decades. I don't know what photogrpahic evidence Fought has to work from in oder to restore these greens but I do know he has spent A TON of time at the Tufts Archives and at Pine Needles accumulating all pictures possible (as a resort, PN has always advertised and so there are lots of pics).

Brad Klein is consulting and the Bell family (who live on property) will be right on top of things as work begins next fall. The net result will be positive with nothing drastic being done but the greens will have long lost character returned to them as will PN's unique challenge off the tee.

GolfClubAtlas.com is going to have a gathering here in Southern Pines at the appropriate time and the work being done at PN will be a focus of that get-together.

Cheers,

PS I have no idea who Howard Ward is and the link to his article appears to be dead.

[Dunlop_White]

Ran,

Fought is doing some good stuff here.  I love the fact that he is bringing the original landforms back into play from the tee with extra length.  Trees removal is also a good thing.

Its nice to see that Fought has added some elaborate movement to the fairways too. Ross fairways tended to be curvilinear in that they would gently bow in one direction from the tee, and then bow back into another direction toward the approach. Often, a tee shot, which suggested a draw, was followed by an approach which suggested a fade. Fought (probably with Brad Klein's influence here) also nailed this feature.

Since the Open, PN has maintained quite narrow fairways. It looks just awful and "forced", especially between PN's broad tree lines. Not in keeping with Ross or nature! Fought appears to be reviving some wider fairway widths too (35 yds.)

 I just went through a few Ross routing plans, and as I remembered, Ross' fairway bunkers seem to tilt-in or tip-in at certain angles, typically in conjunction with prevailing landforms. Fought's bunker drawings here do not correspond?  Fought has their shape and position running with or parallel to the hole instead. Additionally, Fought did not bring many of these bunkers out of the rough on his drawings either? Still other bunkers, which were moved forward, in effect were taken were away from their natural position/landform.

 Fought is incorporating many new aerial game characteristics.  On Hole 5, he will re-work the front/right of the green to develop a usable front pin location. However, the only way to create a pinable position up front here would be to "soften" the slope of the green to accommodate faster green speeds. This will definitely require raising the front edge. Integrating it with the approach will be difficult, especially if they even care about retaining any sort of ground game entrance. This is a needed option from such a distance for many players. The raised green front will compromise the current kickup which naturally runs up from the approach.

On Hole 10, Fought has located a greenside bunker smack in the line of the ground game entrance at the front/right corner. No more kickup here either. This green must be approached from above.

On Holes 15 and 17, two of the great ground level greens of all time will be "raised 2 feet to add interest to pitch shot and putting"?

Help me out here? This is precisely what Bob Cupp, who Fought used to team with, did at Old Town Club.

[Dunlop_White]

Incidentally, a GCA outing here sounds wonderful! Perhaps I'll be able to determine first hand from the original routing plan that Ross actually designed the tee on Hole 14 way up the hill to the left, essentially straightening out the hole.  

The current angle presents the best shot value from a teebox on the entire course. Here, you may chose to carry diagonal cross bunkers and bite off as much as you please. Diagonal cross bunkers are among the best strategical elements in classic architecture.... and these will simply become lateral hazards from the new angle.

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