News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #225 on: March 10, 2014, 05:47:47 AM »
Ryan, you keep repeating the same mistake... You can't criticize an ENTIRE COURSE because a few pros chose to to hit driver on a short par 4...

I'm about to change my font to green and refer to you as Pat would... :)



How many more times, Bill?

My criticisms are numerous, in addition to the point you highlight. Hope this clarifies.

Ryan, you sound pretty young. I'll guess that you are in your 20's. Here's a really good piece of advice: when you make a mistake, freely admit it. People will be impressed. But it is a hard skill to master... The flip side of admitting a mistake is babbling on and on trying to shift away from the mistake. People make different assumptions about you when do this...

Here is what you SHOULD be saying: OK, I was wrong to use the comments of a couple of pros (who were going for the green on a short par 4) as the basis for for criticizing ALL the bunkering at Doral. I took those comments out of context. I now realize that the players were not aiming at bunkers on a consistent basis as I implied. That was dumb of me. I realize that it hurt my argument. Even though I may have come to a correct conclusion, when I make my case with specious statements, my thesis will not be well-received.


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #226 on: March 10, 2014, 08:47:43 AM »
Total nonsense
if this were the TPC there'd be GCA orgasms spewing
30 mph winds at Royal Portrush or Bethpage Black would produce the exact same results-except they would be walking back to the tees hitting three after countless 5 minute searches::) ::)
Amazing how the US Open produces the same scores with no weather and that's expected and applauded.

It's called the Blue Monster-not the pink kitten

a tough weather day, and the PGA can't fathom pacing the greens appropriately.
The weather has been predicted since monday.

As Mike Young says, the weekend will be more benign.

  But even so, where does that leave the punter?
 I wasn't terribly interested in making an effort to see Doral prior to this event and I am even less inclined to do so now.  

Ciao

My guess is it leaves the punter in the same position as the punter at Portrush-filling every available tee time. ;) ;D

Your last sentence summarizes this thread (and the $450 Doral thread)
People that weren't interested in playing Doral, still aren't, or probably are even less so (but what's the difference? they're not coming anyway)
and people that WERE, are at least as interested if not more (and will line up to play it).

The criticisms about Doral for the last 20ish years were always that if the wind didn't blow that it was pretty benign course (and the scores reflected that), certainly not as "jazzed up" as say a TPC, Bay Hill, or ANY of the fly by night water laden, optionless Honda sites.
The same criticisms came from the media and hotel guests about the more pedestrian holes.

At TPC there is water penally in play on nearly EVERY hole, whereas at Doral it is least strategically placed as opposed to just punishing EVERY wayward shot. and Doral has way more width, except 10. and 18 for those who can't fly water-though 18 has more fairway than before

the unfortunate thing is that a lot of really good architectural improvements at Doral are being missed, or ignored, even by those smart enough to know better, by setup and weather. Yes there's a bit too much water in a couple places for my tastes-I wasn't that big of a fan of the course to start with-but a fan of the event.


One note:In many, many case the ball scurried across the slick greens,down a slope and into the water.
The drop was often right next to the green, and many players got up and down from that spot.
that's not much different than a really penal bunker or heavy rough.



Jeff

I would have thought those interested in tour stop golf were playing Doral before any splash of cash for a redo.  In any case, the use of water is far too redundant for my tastes even if the design works well around the water (which I seriously question if there is wind).  Its no different to me if these were bunkers rather than ponds; its question of variety.  The stupidly high green fee is merely the crap on the cake ensuring I tick the no box.  I will leave you to all the Doral soup you can stand, it doesn't suit my palate  ;D

Ciao    

Sean,
Doral's price tag immediately eliminates from your consideration.
For that price tag, they can't present a subtle thoughtful test such as the one presented a mile away at Miami Springs for $35.
The average Doral customer wants glitz, bells, and whistles, particularly now that the hotel and grounds are a case study in Trumpishness.
I remember guests coming for lessons in their bathrobes from the spa.
It was never any different at Doral, just that the course was tired and more over the top destinations were getting all the attention.

It's a palm tree waving, glitzy throwback to the 60's featuring big, bold bunkers and frequent water hazards that originally begat the courses name. As i said, Hanse served many masters at Doral, not the least of which was serving the Wilson heritage of the place, and the childhood memories and dreams of a generation of high rolling, New York fast money, nightlife,beach weather,white sand,big spending, and palm tree loving high handicappers.
it was never the kind of place you and I would frequent as players, but Trump, in this case, knows his market.
I question whether this same clientele will fly all night to enjoy a links course in crappy weather in Scotland or Ireland-If you think Doral is unplayable for a high handicap, I can't even imagine a hack in the hay(can't wait for someone to chime in about wispy rough-an occasional weather and frequent maintenace occurrance) and pot bunkers in Aberdeen---in the wind and rain.

Kudos to Hanse for not trying to build that would serve a bunch of GCA nerds,require a public reeducation, and be a commercial disaster.
If I were hiring an architect to build a course as a business, not a labor of love, I'd want to hit my target market, and that's a certain type who doesn't flinch at a $1000 dinner check or a $450 green fee.
the good news is Hanse worked in a tremendous amount of width, and very interesting greens which TV just does not make clear.

I'd say Trump got exactly what he wanted out of this event.
Hanse doesn't need our unconditional approval, but his employer does need the spender's attention and atttendance
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 08:59:10 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #227 on: March 10, 2014, 08:56:18 AM »
Jeff,

You're spot-on in your analysis. I'd short-cut it by saying that Gil did a good impersonation of Rees Jones. He gave the customer what he wanted: toughen up my tour stop. Let's hope the end result is better than what happened at Cog Hill in Chicago where the Dubsdread course was pilloried by the players and the event moved to the decidedly pedestrian Conway Farms.

Thus far, the Blue Monster experience is pretty similar.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #228 on: March 10, 2014, 09:06:22 AM »
Jeff,
I think you are spot on.
I also think Gil knew exactly what he was getting into, and I think he delivered exactly what was asked of him. I have no criticism of his work.
What is interesting is to listen to his supporters. In the past, they would have railed against this type of work. Now, it is strategic, well thought out, and all the pros are wimps. Old Geoff S would have been all over this, now, it is a great restoration.
This is a lesson in how we view and critique architecture.
If Nicklaus, Fazio or Dye had built a course with balls hitting into the middle of the greens and trickling into the water, these pages would be on fire.
I thought it was a good test for these players, and there were enough under par to show they could play it just fine.
Short of playing courses 8500 yards long, how else do we test these guys and make them hit shots? We can say score doesn't matter, but I'm not watching a tournament where 30 under is winning. We have to test them to see them at their best.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #229 on: March 10, 2014, 09:18:10 AM »
Jeff,

You're spot-on in your analysis. I'd short-cut it by saying that Gil did a good impersonation of Rees Jones. He gave the customer what he wanted: toughen up my tour stop. Let's hope the end result is better than what happened at Cog Hill in Chicago where the Dubsdread course was pilloried by the players and the event moved to the decidedly pedestrian Conway Farms.

Thus far, the Blue Monster experience is pretty similar.

Thanks Terry,
But he also gave GCAers many of the things they want, but they are getting distracted by a freak weather occurrance.
I worked there 10 years-we never had a day like that during the event-plenty of windy days,but frankly many calm days, and none like that.
the problem is people hear 22-30 mph winds and think they often play in that-they don't- as people always overestimate wind.
Gmac was quoted as saying the winds were 30-40 mph and he knows a thing or two about wind.

Hanse honored the heritage of Doral, and added a few modern GCA twists(width, strategy, centerline hazards), as well as adding a few PGA tour twists (more water).

can't speak for Dubsdread-never been

Don,
thanks
and understand that I can respect the process and the course for what it is (Tour stop and glitzy resort) and much prefer to play elsewhere.

What would I rather see?
Wooden clubs and balata balls and the old 1970 Blue Monster(though I thought hanses's greens and bunker placement were way better) -but I know that's a fantasy as too many amateurs cling to their crutches they hit no better, whil pros hit it 320 routinely now.
If we aren't going to address equipment look for longer, tougher designs and/or goofy setups, all of which make the game take longer
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #230 on: March 10, 2014, 09:23:25 AM »
I haven't wanted to play a course more after watching it on TV than Doral this week. 

Now just gotta wait for GolfNow to get some tee times  :)

Kyle Casella

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #231 on: March 10, 2014, 09:32:42 AM »
In the context of producing a thoughtful and interesting renovation, while re-introducing the strategic merit of the course, I think Gil did an outstanding job given what he had to work with. As I stated in another thread, if you didn't like the original premise of Doral (that is, flat Florida golf with lots of sand and water), you were never going to like the post-Gil Doral. The argument of water as a hazard, in my mind, is totally separate from the argument about the quality of Gil's work on the course.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #232 on: March 10, 2014, 09:35:08 AM »
I haven't wanted to play a course more after watching it on TV than Doral this week.  

Now just gotta wait for GolfNow to get some tee times  :)

There's your proof that Gil Hanse is the Paul George of GCA. Those tickets for April 13 are getting cheaper all the time. I'm laughing on the outside, but I'm crying on the inside. America needs the Pacers to beat the Heat this season.

If you get a Hot Deal, I'll come too. I hear the strategy is to aim at the bunkers.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #233 on: March 10, 2014, 09:37:07 AM »
Can someone share where width was added? I don't know the course so could not tell on TV.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #234 on: March 10, 2014, 09:38:13 AM »
Interesting points throughout this thread.  I hope they give the course a few years to mature before they decide to make any major changes. 

I enjoyed watching the tournament but was shocked at how many apparently good shots wound up in the water.  I wo

I agree if this would have been a Rees Jones project, he would have been burned at the stake on this board by now.  I wouldn't be surprised if I were a part of the chorus.

The course seems like a great test for the pros off the tee - it rewards distance, accuracy and the ability to work the ball. 


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #235 on: March 10, 2014, 09:41:31 AM »
Jeff,
I think you are spot on.
I also think Gil knew exactly what he was getting into, and I think he delivered exactly what was asked of him. I have no criticism of his work.
What is interesting is to listen to his supporters. In the past, they would have railed against this type of work. Now, it is strategic, well thought out, and all the pros are wimps. Old Geoff S would have been all over this, now, it is a great restoration.
This is a lesson in how we view and critique architecture.
If Nicklaus, Fazio or Dye had built a course with balls hitting into the middle of the greens and trickling into the water, these pages would be on fire.
I thought it was a good test for these players, and there were enough under par to show they could play it just fine.
Short of playing courses 8500 yards long, how else do we test these guys and make them hit shots? We can say score doesn't matter, but I'm not watching a tournament where 30 under is winning. We have to test them to see them at their best.

Don and they did it with 4 par 5's, the only way to test a longer approach these days,
rather than taking the USGA copout of making a par 5 a par 4

JIm,
Several posters have posted links to an overlay of new fairways vs. old I'd say 40% more greens area and 20-30% more fairway
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 09:50:07 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #236 on: March 10, 2014, 09:54:03 AM »
Can someone share where width was added? I don't know the course so could not tell on TV.

Jim, have you had the chance to look at these links?

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-doral-front-9-then-and-now/

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-doral-back-9-then-and-now/


Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #237 on: March 10, 2014, 12:46:32 PM »

Having watched the final round I thought that the course would be better suited for a swimming meet.

I sympathise with Jiminez and his club throwing; the fall off from the greens into water seemed bizarre.

Bob

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #238 on: March 10, 2014, 01:26:26 PM »
Thanks Jeff and Bill...will check them out.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #239 on: March 10, 2014, 01:36:44 PM »
"Hanse served many masters at Doral, not the least of which was serving the Wilson heritage of the place, and the childhood memories and dreams of a generation of high rolling, New York fast money, nightlife,beach weather,white sand,big spending, and palm tree loving high handicappers."

Jeff - I thought this was really cool, a very good insight. There are lots of kinds of history in gca, and I guess one kind is the history of a place, of an idea and an ideal of the good life. For some, that good life would be Dornoch, very late in the day on a long summer evening, alone, with a pint awaiting in a small inn, and the quiet of it all. For others, the good life is up tempo high rolling and big spending both day and night, in the sun and vibrancy of south Florida. (I have to admit, for better or worse I think both lives just great!) Again, really good point that Hanse was serving a history/legacy....had never thought of that.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 01:41:05 PM by PPallotta »

Brent Hutto

Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #240 on: March 10, 2014, 01:40:22 PM »
'Struth.

Miami specifically and South Florida more generally are the very i.e. of the sort of place I wouldn't care to set foot ever. And come to think of it, Doral (new version or old) is the sort of golf course I wouldn't choose to play even if the green fee were comp'd. So it's perfectly emblematic of the Platonic ideal of South Florida.

J Cabarcos

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #241 on: March 10, 2014, 01:43:27 PM »
Bill,

I'm anxious to learn more about the opinions of those who have actually played the course.

How many rendering an opinion on Trump Doral have actually played it ?


I'm a SoFla local which played the course in Late Jan/ Early Feb 2014 with a member.  As I expected, the new course was going to be great for PGA tour viewing.

As for the mortal amongst us that go and play it, well, it only got tougher.  Quick Synopsis - More water creeping alongside green complexes, more sand on the fairways, more convoluted sight lines from tees and longer water carries to greens & fairways.

By itself those additions are a good challenge for a course that goes by the name of the Blue Monster with PGA pedigree, but when I had to deal with a steady 20+ mph wind thats when this 12 hdcp thought it was too much.

Will this turn recreational resort golfers and local members away from Trump Doral?  The answer is No.

Why? It is my conclusion that there are many golfers amongst us which have a sadistic streak for punishment.  Don't count me in as one, but file this course for the crowd that digs places like TPC Sawgrass, Oakmont and Bethpage Black.  The folks which no matter how shitty they played will say, I played Kiawah (another example).

Trump Doral needs to be cognizant of the natural winds and adjust accordingly for the non sadistic mortal golfers. The course with a club or less of wind is a fine challenge, but not even Trump can instruct the wind not to blow harder.  As for the pros, I could care less about their plight, they are getting their paychecks.   Let them duke it out, it makes for good TV.  The rest of us who wish to consider playing Trump Doral better bring their A game or check the weather forecast before showing up.

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #242 on: March 10, 2014, 02:04:41 PM »
back to Dufner...



and his doppleganger (Buzz from the Melvins)



J Cabarcos

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #243 on: March 10, 2014, 02:18:53 PM »
'Struth.

Miami specifically and South Florida more generally are the very i.e. of the sort of place I wouldn't care to set foot ever. And come to think of it, Doral (new version or old) is the sort of golf course I wouldn't choose to play even if the green fee were comp'd. So it's perfectly emblematic of the Platonic ideal of South Florida.

Brent Hutto

Your comments do not add anything towards the discussion about the changes to the Trump Doral except to indicate your judgmental and disapproving nature towards a geographic area of the country which you probably are not entirely familiar with.  IMHO, you sir waste your time and ours with such a petulent post.  

Lastly, anybody which calls himself a golfer would aways play a course for free!

Brent Hutto

Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #244 on: March 10, 2014, 02:34:39 PM »
Actually, we had a whole thread get derailed back before The Great Crash of '14 on the topic of courses one wouldn't play for free.

Any course with as continuous an experience as Doral of having to actively avoid hitting balls anywhere near the water is one I'd decline a free on. I"d rather go play somewhere else and pay for my round than try to defensively steer the ball around a course like that. The "torture test" that seems to draw a certain class of punters in droves (especially once it's been on TV) leaves me cold. Sorry.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #245 on: March 10, 2014, 02:35:41 PM »
So, I've posted a couple thoughts on this thread, watched the tournament a bit,
and for full disclosure, I consider myself a good friend of Tommy Nac.  Guilt by association,
I want Gil to succeed and like what I see of his work.
From the tournament perspective, there seemed to be a broad mix of scores each day.
A good number of under par scores other than carnage day on Friday.
For the tournament, I of course, was not there, but it seemed like the course was reasonable.

I have been a person against bifurcation, would not be against a roll back across the board, but do not
think it would help the "business" of golf.
A course like Doral though, is where I get concerned.  We are having a pretty large debate in this thread, about
the presentation of Doral for a tournament with a great field, and I want to know (because I haven't seen it),
how the paying golfers like/dislike the course in it's normal day-to-day maintenance presentation.

My favorite course in my career is Kingston Heath.  I played one year when the first round was near ideal.  I shot 69
(I think) in the first round and was somewhere just inside the top twenty.
The wind blew a gale in round two, I shot 67 and led by 2 at the end of the day.  I don't remember if there were any other scores
under 70 that day, and the filed average soared.  Nobody ever thought to say that Kingston Heath sucked because the wind made it a nightmare.  The ONLY condition that regularly beats up tour players is wind, no matter the course.

ps  I purposely aimed at 2 bunkers during that second round at Kingston Heath! ;D

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #246 on: March 10, 2014, 02:55:10 PM »
I feel compelled to chime in here.

I played Doral Blue in mid February, just a few weeks ago.  I played the Blue tees (6700 yards).  My handicap is 13, though I can hit it a decent distance (can hit a driver 270-280 if I catch it) though I can be very erratic when not playing well.

I wanted to play the course to check it out after the re-do, regardless of what people thought.  I go to Miami a couple times per winter and have not been overly enthused with the public golf options there.  I was pretty excited by Mark Satlzman's photo tour, and the fact that he really liked it, but was a little afraid it would be too hard for me, since he said it was quite tough and is a low handicapper (or so I inferred):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57652.0.html

When I did play it, I didn't just like the place, I thought it was terrific. I found most of the difficulty to be in the greens, and in the lines of play the course forces you into if you want to avoid trouble, NOT the water itself. Now, if I took an aggressive line and went for every pin, I'm sure I would have dunked in a few more balls than I did, but in general I played safe and avoided the blue stuff (notable exception: yanking my 2nd shot on 8 into the water with only a 7 iron in my hand and wind behind to get to the green).  Off the top of my head, my other water adventures included #10 (when I took a too aggressive line and didn't give the wind the proper respect) and #1 (when I thinned/shanked a wedge into the pond right of the green).  I think that's it, and probably put more balls in the water on Streamsong Red this past Saturday.

Do I think the course is easy? No.  Did I score well? No (but not because of the course).  Was it fun to play? ABSOLUTELY! In fact I liked it so much I went back the next day and played it again.  Fairly generous fairways, huge greens, and oceans of sand - it was a real treat.

I don't really expect it to be a "golf destination" - more as a great golf option for people who are going to Miami anyway.  It strikes me that a lot of the criticism here is due to 1) the look - ok, I guess you hate all south Florida golf (and would rather just go without playing in the North?); 2) the water - ok, what do you do if you  hit it in the tall fescue at Shinnecock?  at least with water you can drop 2 instead of re-tee shot #3, and 3) the fact that it is owned by Donald Trump (and if that's your issue, I can't help you).  It's not Bandon, it's not Scotland, it's not the Hamptons, and it's not Streamsong, but in my estimation, it's a great golf course for what it is and where it is.  Barring an invite to Indian Creek, I will be playing it again the next time I am in Miami.  If you don't want to play it, well that's your call, but I think that's your loss.

Final point - I played Streamsong Blue on Friday, and had similar wind conditions to Doral. That was also borderline unplayable too.  Bashing Hanse because the pros had a very tough day is just silly.

Cheers,
Kevin

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #247 on: March 10, 2014, 04:08:20 PM »
I feel compelled to chime in here.

I played Doral Blue in mid February, just a few weeks ago.  I played the Blue tees (6700 yards). 
Having played WITH Kevin at Doral, I am in agreement.
We played 6700 yards. I think I lost two balls in the water. I know I lost the same or more balls at Streamsong as well.
I rather enjoyed myself at Doral. I thought the work on 8,9, 10 was especially terrific.
I rather enjoyed myself at Streamsong too.
I'd love the chance to go back to either. 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #248 on: March 10, 2014, 04:37:30 PM »
I feel compelled to chime in here.

I played Doral Blue in mid February, just a few weeks ago.  I played the Blue tees (6700 yards).  

We played 6700 yards. I think I lost two balls in the water. I know I lost the same or more balls at Streamsong as well.
 
 

Well, after reading Bruce's post and this one,I guess there's no reason to read the first 9 pages.
case closed, Doak and C&C don't know what they're doing either. ;D ;D ;) ;)
and Pat Burke, a tour player, aimed at 2 bunkers while leading an eventplayed on a GCA sacred cow. ;) ;) ;D ;D

and Kevin, and Bruce, and Mark,
What do you know?
You only played the course ;)
and for that matter I only walked it.

It's not like we have the insight of someone who watched it on TV on an extreme day or saw a 2 dimensional picture . ;) ;D

Interesting that all 4 on this thread that saw it and played it appreciate the new version,for those keeping score at home that's 4-0.
but carry on-I'm getting quite an education. ;)
maybe I should get over and try some of this links golf stuff, and broaden my horizons.


 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 04:45:02 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dufner on Doral
« Reply #249 on: March 10, 2014, 04:47:13 PM »
I feel compelled to chime in here.

I played Doral Blue in mid February, just a few weeks ago.  I played the Blue tees (6700 yards).  My handicap is 13, though I can hit it a decent distance (can hit a driver 270-280 if I catch it) though I can be very erratic when not playing well.



When I did play it, I didn't just like the place, I thought it was terrific. I found most of the difficulty to be in the greens, and in the lines of play the course forces you into if you want to avoid trouble, NOT the water itself. Now, if I took an aggressive line and went for every pin, I'm sure I would have dunked in a few more balls than I did, but in general I played safe and avoided the blue stuff (notable exception: yanking my 2nd shot on 8 into the water with only a 7 iron in my hand and wind behind to get to the green).  Off the top of my head, my other water adventures included #10 (when I took a too aggressive line and didn't give the wind the proper respect) and #1 (when I thinned/shanked a wedge into the pond right of the green).  I think that's it, and probably put more balls in the water on Streamsong Red this past Saturday.

Do I think the course is easy? No.  Did I score well? No (but not because of the course).  Was it fun to play? ABSOLUTELY! In fact I liked it so much I went back the next day and played it again.  Fairly generous fairways, huge greens, and oceans of sand - it was a real treat.

I don't really expect it to be a "golf destination" - more as a great golf option for people who are going to Miami anyway.  It strikes me that a lot of the criticism here is due to 1) the look - ok, I guess you hate all south Florida golf (and would rather just go without playing in the North?); 2) the water - ok, what do you do if you  hit it in the tall fescue at Shinnecock?  at least with water you can drop 2 instead of re-tee shot #3, and 3) the fact that it is owned by Donald Trump (and if that's your issue, I can't help you).  It's not Bandon, it's not Scotland, it's not the Hamptons, and it's not Streamsong, but in my estimation, it's a great golf course for what it is and where it is.  Barring an invite to Indian Creek, I will be playing it again the next time I am in Miami.  If you don't want to play it, well that's your call, but I think that's your loss.

Final point - I played Streamsong Blue on Friday, and had similar wind conditions to Doral. That was also borderline unplayable too.  Bashing Hanse because the pros had a very tough day is just silly.

Cheers,
Kevin


Couldn't help but repost this.

carry on.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey