Dufner on Doral

[Bart Bradley]

Am I correct in my understanding that many on here are defending the design as long as the greens are kept soft (softer)?  Don't we praise design where the greens are kept rock firm but the design allows the use of slopes/counter slopes to control ball roll.  Don't we praise design where the architecture would allow a shot to land short of the green and bounce forward toward the target or at least to a recoverable position?  (It appeared to me that many balls that landed short were funneled toward the water hazards). 

In my opinion, the combination of the design, set-up and weather conditions simply did not work yesterday.

I suspect that the set-up is much different when the pros are not in town and that is likely why those who have played it came away with a positive impression.  I think most 5 HCPs would have lost 6-12 balls in the water yesterday.  (The best players in the world averaged 2).

Bart

[jeffwarne]

Total nonsense
if this were the TPC there'd be GCA orgasms spewing
30 mph winds at Royal Portrush or Bethpage Black would produce the exact same results-except they would be walking back to the tees hitting three after countless 5 minute searches:
Amazing how the US Open produces the same scores with no weather and that's expected and applauded.

It's called the Blue Monster-not the pink kitten

a tough weather day, and the PGA can't fathom pacing the greens appropriately.
The weather has been predicted since monday.

As Mike Young says, the weekend will be more benign.

  But even so, where does that leave the punter? 
 I wasn't terribly interested in making an effort to see Doral prior to this event and I am even less inclined to do so now. 

Ciao

My guess is it leaves the punter in the same position as the punter at Portrush-filling every available tee time.

Your last sentence summarizes this thread (and the $450 Doral thread)
People that weren't interested in playing Doral, still aren't, or probably are even less so (but what's the difference? they're not coming anyway)
and people that WERE, are at least as interested if not more (and will line up to play it).

The criticisms about Doral for the last 20ish years were always that if the wind didn't blow that it was pretty benign course (and the scores reflected that), certainly not as "jazzed up" as say a TPC, Bay Hill, or ANY of the fly by night water laden, optionless Honda sites.
The same criticisms came from the media and hotel guests about the more pedestrian holes.

At TPC there is water penally in play on nearly EVERY hole, whereas at Doral it is least strategically placed as opposed to just punishing EVERY wayward shot. and Doral has way more width, except 10. and 18 for those who can't fly water-though 18 has more fairway than before

the unfortunate thing is that a lot of really good architectural improvements at Doral are being missed, or ignored, even by those smart enough to know better, by setup and weather. Yes there's a bit too much water in a couple places for my tastes-I wasn't that big of a fan of the course to start with-but a fan of the event.


One note:In many, many case the ball scurried across the slick greens,down a slope and into the water.
The drop was often right next to the green, and many players got up and down from that spot.
that's not much different than a really penal bunker or heavy rough.

[Ken Fry]

So let me get all this moaning straight.

The 68 highest ranked golfers in the world are playing in a tournament with no cut for a purse of $9,000,000.

An odd weather occurrence stirred up winds to 30 mph on what's essentially new greens.  The conditions are the same for all players, correct?  Then shut up and play.

And stop pointing to the 113 balls in the water like Terry Gannon felt necessary the entire telecast (would someone stick a sock in his mouth???).  I sat and watched Rory hit an approach shot from 130 yards that never touched land.  How is that Gil Hanse's problem?  On the same hole, Tiger at least touched land although 15 yards short of the green before it ended up in water.  Why did that happen?  They were both shooting for a front pin location.  That's not poor design.  That's poor choices.

We as a group cry for firm and fast conditions and greens with character.  That's what the players got.  These guys are playing for money, not for the thrill of finessing a shot off a contour to a tucked pin location.

The USGA butchered a US Open at Shinnecock with a silly course set up.  I never heard ANYONE make comments about how they lost interest in ever seeing the place.

Lighten up and enjoy the tournament.  You're still watching guys doing something none of you will get the opportunity to do.

Ken

[BHoover]

Spot on, Ken. Not sure I'd want to plunk down the cash and play Doral myself, but I don't see any problem with it as a tournament course. It's refreshing to see a Florida course playing firm and fast for a change.

The Tour pros are used to being coddled. Put them on a course other than your average Tour stop, or ANGC, and they ALWAYS complain. I say make the course even firmer and faster. Make it brutal. Okay, just kidding, but there's nothing wrong with making these guys think out there.

[BCowan]

So let me get all this moaning straight.

The 68 highest ranked golfers in the world are playing in a tournament with no cut for a purse of $9,000,000.

An odd weather occurrence stirred up winds to 30 mph on what's essentially new greens.  The conditions are the same for all players, correct?  Then shut up and play.

And stop pointing to the 113 balls in the water like Terry Gannon felt necessary the entire telecast (would someone stick a sock in his mouth???).  I sat and watched Rory hit an approach shot from 130 yards that never touched land.  How is that Gil Hanse's problem?  On the same hole, Tiger at least touched land although 15 yards short of the green before it ended up in water.  Why did that happen?  They were both shooting for a front pin location.  That's not poor design.  That's poor choices.

We as a group cry for firm and fast conditions and greens with character.  That's what the players got.  These guys are playing for money, not for the thrill of finessing a shot off a contour to a tucked pin location.

The USGA butchered a US Open at Shinnecock with a silly course set up.  I never heard ANYONE make comments about how they lost interest in ever seeing the place.

Lighten up and enjoy the tournament.  You're still watching guys doing something none of you will get the opportunity to do.

Ken

Ken, I didn't know that the pro's lost 113 balls at Shinnecock and that you couldn't use a ground game at Shinnecock?  I much prefer a tough Shennecock and it fairly determines the best golfer.  Would Cory Pavin win at Doral in his prime?  How many forced carries at Doral?  I loath the TPC too.  ''how dare someone criticize Pete Dye on here''.  Brent or Jeff made a great point that the greens were running too fast.  F&F has to have a means of running shots up.  F&F on a Rees Jones track is not good IMO.  It has been the worst winter I can remember and that is my rant!

[BCowan]

Total nonsense
if this were the TPC there'd be GCA orgasms spewing
30 mph winds at Royal Portrush or Bethpage Black would produce the exact same results-except they would be walking back to the tees hitting three after countless 5 minute searches:
Amazing how the US Open produces the same scores with no weather and that's expected and applauded.

It's called the Blue Monster-not the pink kitten

a tough weather day, and the PGA can't fathom pacing the greens appropriately.
The weather has been predicted since monday.

As Mike Young says, the weekend will be more benign.

I don't care for the TPC!  You are now comparing Portrush to Doral, does Portrush allow run up game, yes?  Did pro's lose 113 balls at Bethpage?  Would a 5 handicap player lose more balls at Doral non tourney vs Bethpage non tourney?  Luckily the US Open doesn't select courses with water on 12+ holes, for I would never watch any more Opens and new golf courses would be built worse than they already are!  Pink Kitten, that's cute.  I am also not Anti-US Open like many are on here.   

[JR Potts]

The hypocrisy is amazing.  This is a resort course, remember.  I truly believed you guys that you thought that courses should not be built or designed for one week.  I truly believed you guys that you favored golf courses where you could play the whole round with one ball.  I truly believed you guys when you said that only good courses are playable in all conditions.  I guess all those beliefs get suspended when one of GCA's own designs something that meets none of these standards.

When one of GCA's own builds a brutal, unplayable in wind, water-world, it's fine because we are showing the best in world what it's like to truly suffer.

It's okay when a sacred cow does it...just not when Rees, Jack or Fazio does it.  I got it.

Can't wait for the adoring public to get destroyed out there over the next 51 weeks. God bless the guy who gets the ball retrieving contact...as there will be thousands of brand new ProV1s in those waters in weeks.  Hopefully alligators aren't allergic to elastomer...or were going to have a crisis in our hands.

[Mark Saltzman]

Total nonsense
if this were the TPC there'd be GCA orgasms spewing
30 mph winds at Royal Portrush or Bethpage Black would produce the exact same results-except they would be walking back to the tees hitting three after countless 5 minute searches:
Amazing how the US Open produces the same scores with no weather and that's expected and applauded.

It's called the Blue Monster-not the pink kitten

a tough weather day, and the PGA can't fathom pacing the greens appropriately.
The weather has been predicted since monday.

As Mike Young says, the weekend will be more benign.

I don't care for the TPC!  You are now comparing Portrush to Doral, does Portrush allow run up game, yes?  Did pro's lose 113 balls at Bethpage?  Would a 5 handicap player lose more balls at Doral non tourney vs Bethpage non tourney?  Luckily the US Open doesn't select courses with water on 12+ holes, for I would never watch any more Opens and new golf courses would be built worse than they already are!  Pink Kitten, that's cute.  I am also not Anti-US Open like many are on here.   

Hang on a sec, how many holes at Trump Doral allow for a running approach if played from the correct side of the fairway?  And yes, there is sufficient width to pick sides of a fairway.  In fact, I'd say it's a necessity.

I'd say you could hit a running approach on 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 17

As for the guys that hit it in the water long on 15... first, the hole plays predominantly into the wind, so they got it in an unusual wind.  Second, the green must be twice as deep on the right side vs the left side (left of the spine).  I have no idea why the guys were playing for anything close to the pin.. but they did and paid the price.  It's not as though balls were landing front edge and going in the water long, they were landing (downwind) pin high at a narrow portion of the green.

I said it earlier, but I don't think one guy on this board that has actually played the course disliked it or found it unfair.   Amazing how we have to wait for the best players in the world to play it to find out that it's actually too hard for the average golfer.

[Kyle Casella]

I just don't understand why the players seemingly refused to adjust to the conditions. I watched the online live coverage of 15 most of the afternoon and I'm not sure if most guys weren't paying attention or were just being stubborn. If the guy in front of you hits a draw with a hard right to left wind onto a right to left slope and it rolls into the water, maybe that would make you think to not try the same thing.

On at least two instances, and I didn't see much of his round, I saw DJ land 5-10 paces in front of the green to get it close. Isn't that something everyone on here supposedly clamors for?

[JR Potts]

Total nonsense
if this were the TPC there'd be GCA orgasms spewing
30 mph winds at Royal Portrush or Bethpage Black would produce the exact same results-except they would be walking back to the tees hitting three after countless 5 minute searches:
Amazing how the US Open produces the same scores with no weather and that's expected and applauded.

It's called the Blue Monster-not the pink kitten

a tough weather day, and the PGA can't fathom pacing the greens appropriately.
The weather has been predicted since monday.

As Mike Young says, the weekend will be more benign.

I don't care for the TPC!  You are now comparing Portrush to Doral, does Portrush allow run up game, yes?  Did pro's lose 113 balls at Bethpage?  Would a 5 handicap player lose more balls at Doral non tourney vs Bethpage non tourney?  Luckily the US Open doesn't select courses with water on 12+ holes, for I would never watch any more Opens and new golf courses would be built worse than they already are!  Pink Kitten, that's cute.  I am also not Anti-US Open like many are on here.   

Hang on a sec, how many holes at Trump Doral allow for a running approach if played from the correct side of the fairway?  And yes, there is sufficient width to pick sides of a fairway.  In fact, I'd say it's a necessity.

I'd say you could hit a running approach on 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 17

As for the guys that hit it in the water long on 15... first, the hole plays predominantly into the wind, so they got it in an unusual wind.  Second, the green must be twice as deep on the right side vs the left side (left of the spine).  I have no idea why the guys were playing for anything close to the pin.. but they did and paid the price.  It's not as though balls were landing front edge and going in the water long, they were landing (downwind) pin high at a narrow portion of the green.

I said it earlier, but I don't think one guy on this board that has actually played the course disliked it or found it unfair.   Amazing how we have to wait for the best players in the world to play it to find out that it's actually too hard for the average golfer.

Is the average resort golfer able to find THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE FAIRWAY in winds that average 11 mph?  Don't need to answer as that answer is clearly no.  And should the likely result for missing the right side of the fairway on most of the holes be a water ball with your next shot?  No need to answer that one either.

[BCowan]

JR

    You are hilarious.  

Mark

     Courses that are prone to have lots of wind from time to time don't need water on 12+ holes.  Forget the fact that the pro's carried the ball pin high, the consequences are a water ball.  I don't complain about deep rough.  I'll take deep rough all day for a tourney all day with very few hazards.  I am glad that the people who played it enjoyed it.  

[Lou_Duran]

It's called the Blue Monster-not the pink kitten

and

The 68 highest ranked golfers in the world are playing in a tournament with no cut for a purse of $9,000,000.

An odd weather occurrence stirred up winds to 30 mph on what's essentially new greens.  The conditions are the same for all players, correct?  Then shut up and play.

Pretty much says it all.  Give the course another year to mature, for the tournament folks to figure things out, and for the designers to make necessary tweaks and all will be well.

As to the charge of hypocrisy, what is new?  We give those we like all the latitude in the world when things don't go as planned, after all, their intentions are noble, and, like us, they are good folks who "get it".  Those we don't identify with- say Fazio or Trump- will they have horns, don't they?   

[JR Potts]

Pretty much says it all.  Give the course another year to mature, for the tournament folks to figure things out, and for the designers to make necessary tweaks and all will be well.

As to the charge of hypocrisy, what is new?  We give those we like all the latitude in the world when things don't go as planned, after all, their intentions are noble, and, like us, they are good folks who "get it".  Those we don't identify with- say Fazio or Trump- will they have horns, don't they?   

So now we're okay with designers getting second or third bites at the apple to tweak designs that did not work or perform as intended.  I thought that was a no-no.  I'm having a hard time keeping up.  #sacredcowstatus. 

[Jim Tang]

I know of two people who have played the new Doral.  While neither guy raved about the course, they also didn't say it was unfair.  I may be playing there in a month and will report my thoughts on GCA once I get back.

I think we all need to give Doral some time.  I always know much more about a golf course and the architect's design after I have played the course multiple times.  We have seen two days of golf at Doral in some extreme weather conditions.  That's a pretty small sample size.  Let's see what happens this weekend, and perhaps, even take the long view and wait to render final judgement until after we have seen 2 or 3 years of the pros playing Doral.

Is Doral awesome?  An abomination?  Somewhere in between?   I don't know because I haven't seen enough of it, yet.

[Jim Tang]

I do agree with JR, however.  If Jack or Jones had done the redesign at Doral, this site would be decidedly hammering the layout and riping how it was put together.

[jeffwarne]

Total nonsense
if this were the TPC there'd be GCA orgasms spewing
30 mph winds at Royal Portrush or Bethpage Black would produce the exact same results-except they would be walking back to the tees hitting three after countless 5 minute searches:
Amazing how the US Open produces the same scores with no weather and that's expected and applauded.

It's called the Blue Monster-not the pink kitten

a tough weather day, and the PGA can't fathom pacing the greens appropriately.
The weather has been predicted since monday.

As Mike Young says, the weekend will be more benign.

I don't care for the TPC!  You are now comparing Portrush to Doral, does Portrush allow run up game, yes?  Did pro's lose 113 balls at Bethpage?  Would a 5 handicap player lose more balls at Doral non tourney vs Bethpage non tourney?  Luckily the US Open doesn't select courses with water on 12+ holes, for I would never watch any more Opens and new golf courses would be built worse than they already are!  Pink Kitten, that's cute.  I am also not Anti-US Open like many are on here.   

Hang on a sec, how many holes at Trump Doral allow for a running approach if played from the correct side of the fairway?  And yes, there is sufficient width to pick sides of a fairway.  In fact, I'd say it's a necessity.

I'd say you could hit a running approach on 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 17

As for the guys that hit it in the water long on 15... first, the hole plays predominantly into the wind, so they got it in an unusual wind.  Second, the green must be twice as deep on the right side vs the left side (left of the spine).  I have no idea why the guys were playing for anything close to the pin.. but they did and paid the price.  It's not as though balls were landing front edge and going in the water long, they were landing (downwind) pin high at a narrow portion of the green.

I said it earlier, but I don't think one guy on this board that has actually played the course disliked it or found it unfair.   Amazing how we have to wait for the best players in the world to play it to find out that it's actually too hard for the average golfer.

spot on Mark
I saw plenty of room to run the ball on my detailed walk around and plenty of opportunities for strategy.

Someone who DRAWS a 9 iron with a 30 mph right to left wind to a green sloping right to left, with water left. deserves what they get
and what he got was a bogie
wouldn't work on a links course course either

and BCowan,
i am comparing the penal DAILY SETUP of Bethpage and Portrush, though they are actually more penal as a lost ball is stroke AND distance AND involves a 5 minute look each time
Better courses-crappy daily setups

[Lou_Duran]

J.R.- I was not thinking of you when I replied.  Sorry for my failure once again to communicate clearly.

As to tweaking designs, it is not only "okay", but something that is common and ordinary on all of the best courses.  Too many variables are involved to get things right out of the box.  Do you think that Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Augusta National, #2 weren't tinkered with since their inception? 

[jeffwarne]

I do agree with JR, however.  If Jack or Jones had done the redesign at Doral, this site would be decidedly hammering the layout and riping how it was put together.

Jim,
I agree 100%.
If they had done the redesign, I certainly would be ripping them also.
Because it would have at least as much water as it does now, without the width,strategy, and greatly enlarged greens.

It's Doral-no one here was crazy about the design to start with-but it is a great tournament and those that patronize the resort will love it.

JR,
No, average guys can't hit the proper side of the fairway in Doral's 11 mph average winds-but they can't hit ANY of the fairway or even the playable corridor  at Kiowah, TPC or PGA National

[Steve_ Shaffer]

John Paul Newport of the WSJ on Doral:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304554004579425320987961970?mod=WSJ_LifeStyle_Lifestyle_5&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304554004579425320987961970.html%3Fmod%3DWSJ_LifeStyle_Lifestyle_5

[BCowan]

''Someone who DRAWS a 9 iron with a 30 mph right to left wind to a green sloping right to left, with water left. deserves what they get
and what he got was a bogie
wouldn't work on a links course course either''

   I wouldn't say D Johnson has the best course management (18th hole of the PGA).  Links course you would have found your ball in a penal bunker, vs all these shallow abundant Florida bunkers.  I amazed at the lack of shot making and thinking on tour today vs the 80's PGA tour guys.  

''i am comparing the penal DAILY SETUP of Bethpage and Portrush, though they are actually more penal as a lost ball is stroke AND distance AND involves a 5 minute look each time
Better courses-crappy daily setups''

    They can cut the rough, can Doral pump out water of 80% of the ponds?  Remember I did a thread on maint. fescue 1-2 times a year, which is important IMO.  

A positive note, the green complexes look much better. 

[Mike_Young]

Lou,
"weaking designs" is fairly common with signature firms but form us regional guys it is a different thing all together.   They hire someone else and blame you if it doesn't work right the first time.  A signature can eat lunch with the green chair or golf pro and be paid to come back and "Tweak".
___________
Golf pros look at courses just like football teams view the defense of different opponents.  Sometimes they don't match up and they can't make it match so they lose then other times they match perfectly and bingo....
________
Sort of feel for Gil or any other archie in this spot....you know the RJ's and GN'stypes  are going to use this type of stuff to convince major venues as to why they are the "expert" for championship play....

[Adam Warren]

First, if its a 30 MPH wind, how do you know someone is DRAWING the ball with a 9 iron.  For all we know, they could have hit a straight ball and the wind took it to where it looked like a draw.  Use your heads.

I agree with the sentiment that if this were Jack, RTJ, Fazio, etc that did this exact design, the sky would be falling and Doral would be ripped to the extent they wouldn't consider it a golf course.  There would be cries for it to be blown up and allow the likes of Doak, Hanse, etc to start from scratch.  

So they were rained out for the most part the first day and there were quite unusual winds yesterday, and we are judging the course.  I know its what we like to do, but obviously its not appropriate just yet.  I think most guys will say they design the course for the conditions that are most likely to affect the course.  Not a once a year or every other year storm that just happens to fall on the weekend the course is most recognized.  How many tournaments past were there similar conditions?  I think that probably answers the question there.  A lot of golf courses would have played tough in those conditions.  If I am a single digit handicap, and I am smart enough to not go firing at pins in adverse conditions, I'll be damned if these guys can't figure it out.  

[Jason Thurman]

Things GCA loves:
Gil Hanse
Firm and fast
Wind
Green contours
Courses that require playing away from the "line of charm"
Courses that fight bomb and gouge

Things GCA hates:
Water
Difficulty
Lost balls
Donald Trump
Any aesthetic style that can't be described as "minimalist"
Expensive courses
CCFAD atmospheres
Idiots spectators who pick up balls from the rough during a tournament and walk off with them


I often lament that there's no "blind taste test" with golf design. There's no way to ask a GCA Kool Aid drinker to evaluate a course objectively, because their take is always cluttered by their knowledge of who the designer is, their general perception of courses from its era, and numerous other influences. The closest we can get to seeing what people REALLY think is to show them a course that presents such an interesting dichotomy of features that GCA loves crossed with features that GCA hates.

[Wade Whitehead]

I wonder what scores would have been if the women had been playing Doral yesterday.

WW

[Michael Moore]

The wind was often blowing at more than 20 mph in South Florida in the last 24 hours.
Did you play in South Florida, close to Doral today, or are your comments based solely from viewing the telecast ?

Pat, according to you, if you were only "close to Doral" your observations are worthless.

South Bend is a few miles from the campus, you weren't on campus and you weren't on site to judge what the conditions were.