Dufner on Doral

[Mark Saltzman]

It seems like the guys that have played the course defend it and the guys that saw it on tv thought it sucked.

[Brent Hutto]

So what I get from this thread is that the Treehouse is basically cool with ANYTHING that induces Tour players to hit less than driver. Even if it's aquatic goofy golf when the breeze picks up. But at least they won't be able to play their errant shots.

Frankly, I see nothing to commend the course at all as it has been presented yesterday and today. It's like greens that don't even have water surrounding them are playing like island greens. There's too much good golf to be played on courses that don't require the best players in the world to open up their third sleeve of balls to finish a round. I'll take a pass on Trump Doral no matter who the architect is.

[Tom ORourke]

Do you think that's normal for South Florida in March ?

Yes. I used to live in South Florida and very often there were days in February and March where we would play holes where we could not reach the fairways, and we were in our 20s and could actually play a bit. My point is not that this was the usual day, but if one is building a course down there for a tournament held this time of year you need to consider width and bail out areas a bit more than what I saw. When 8 and 9 irons are running 20 yards into water hazards there might be problems. How many shots the past two days landed on a green and ended up in a water hazard? Way too many. The course may play very nicely on a calmer day but there is no way South Florida is not going to get a good share of 20+ MPH days.

[Patrick_Mucci]

You'd  be surprised at the invitations I get Mr Mucci. 

You're full of crap, no one's paying your way to Miami and your guest fee to play Doral

You're not the only one on here who can claim the title as America's Guest....but thanks.

I've never made that claim.

So if the wind were blowing 20 mph,

The wind was often blowing at more than 20 mph in South Florida in the last 24 hours.
Did you play in South Florida, close to Doral today, or are your comments based solely from viewing the telecast ?

how many balls would have missed the water and hit the grass, err, I mean miss the grass and hit the water.

Alas, I knew you were the expert on Florida golf, Northeast golf, Notre Dame, Augusta and Seminole, but I didn't know you were also a meteorologist.
There are many, many, many things you don't know, but, that comes as no surprise to me.

My fault...I guess my 30+ years of recollection is flawed. 

I think your guess is right, your recollection is flawed

And, I guess my buddies playing in the event and at the event are just being overly dramatic.

Or, you could be embellishing to further your position.
You seem to be relying on hearsay, whereas I'm relying on first hand experience with the wind today.

You're right, my apologies.

Apologies accepted.

[Patrick_Mucci]

We should have another thread... Mucci on Doral. 

I don't have the time right now, but, I'll start one in a week or so.

Why the vitriol? 

There's no vitriol, just a B.S. detector and objector.

I thought the course sucked today.

Did you play it today ?
I didn't see you inside the ropes.
Did you play a course not far from Doral today ?
How windy was it ?

[JR Potts]

My fault...I guess my 30+ years of recollection is flawed. 

I think your guess is right, your recollection is flawed

And, I guess my buddies playing in the event and at the event are just being overly dramatic.

Or, you could be embellishing to further your position.
You seem to be relying on hearsay, whereas I'm relying on first hand experience with the wind today.

Apologies retracted.  You're a fool if you think my comments are based on hearsay or embellishment.

And since the average wind speed in Miami is 11 mph in March, a 20 mph wind shouldn't render a course unplayable...at least not when properly designed/maintained/set-up.  It certainly wouldn't be accepted if Rees or Fazio designed this - not Hanse.

[JR Potts]

Do you think that's normal for South Florida in March ?

Yes. I used to live in South Florida and very often there were days in February and March where we would play holes where we could not reach the fairways, and we were in our 20s and could actually play a bit.


 The course may play very nicely on a calmer day but there is no way South Florida is not going to get a good share of 20+ MPH days.

You sure your recollection isn't mistaken?  My recollection is apparently wrong...you sure yours isn't as well?

[Jason Walker]

Take the weather and wind out of the discussion...

JRPotts has a very valid point.  If this renovation was anyone other than Hanse/Doak/C&C, and still run by Trump, is it fair to say this board would be lit up with criticism given what happened today?

[Gene Greco]

I thought most on here knew Patrick is an avid and enthusiastic student of meteorology,  one who developed the anemometer app found on most smart phones.

The app works well in all places except western Nebraska. 

[Mike_Young]

I think some are jumping the gun here....firm and fast is one thing but a new USGA sand based green with no thatch is almost like concrete...that will go away in a year or so....I think by the time most guys get to the PGA tour they have lost the ability to adapt...they have a certain way they play and if the course doesn't fit their style that week they don't play.  This is good golf course and most of the pissed off pros know what happened to them.  Give it two more days...

[Gene Greco]

And I say Doral will do very well and prosper.

People will be eager to play the " Blue Monster" for the same reason they line up at Bethpage Black.

Just a different target market.

[Gary Slatter]

Sad to read many of the negative comments, from a supposedly golf  knowledgeable group!
The weather today was not normal, sustained +30 mph winds caused the havoc, certainly not the superb course.

The greens are new, to me that means firmer.  I heard nothing but good comments on the TV golf today, many people want to give the Blue Monster a try.  By the end of the weekend, I hope you guys change your minds, but really that might not be possible, and I'm sure the Donald doesn't care either.

From shorter tees golfers will love The new Doral.  If Dick Wilson were alive and could see the new pro game, and saw that finally someone had fixed his Blue course to reflect the changes since his death in 1965, he'd buy Gill Hanse a drink in appreciation.

[BCowan]

68 players today...113 water balls.  I can only imagine the response on this board if Rees or Fazio did the redesign.  Must be great to be a GCA sacred cow.  Hypocrites.

epic!

[Bill Brightly]

And I say Doral will do very well and prosper.

People will be eager to play the " Blue Monster" for the same reason they line up at Bethpage Black.

Just a different target market.

+1

Outside of GCA.COM. most of the golfing public equates very hard as very good. Gil probably does a get a pass here on all the water around the greens, but there is no denying that he did great work in terms of adding width and playing options. He was hired to modify a pro stop course, and he certainly did that in a refreshing manner: he made them THINK.

I saw Dustin complain about the 9 iron that failed to hold the green and went in the water. But he failed to acknowledge that his draw hit the slope and rolled out, while the next player hit a fade to 4 feet.

[BCowan]

Sad to read many of the negative comments, from a supposedly golf  knowledgeable group!
The weather today was not normal, sustained +30 mph winds caused the havoc, certainly not the superb course.

The greens are new, to me that means firmer.  I heard nothing but good comments on the TV golf today, many people want to give the Blue Monster a try.  By the end of the weekend, I hope you guys change your minds, but really that might not be possible, and I'm sure the Donald doesn't care either.

From shorter tees golfers will love The new Doral.  If Dick Wilson were alive and could see the new pro game, and saw that finally someone had fixed his Blue course to reflect the changes since his death in 1965, he'd buy Gill Hanse a drink in appreciation.

Southeast Florida is known for high winds I have been to Doral and seen the 18th flag stick bent in half practically.  Unlike Doral, Scotland another windy place doesn't have water on 12+ holes to make for interesting challenging holes!  Also, with the course playing under windy conditions, is there much of chance for a run up option?  I'm sure Dick would be proud!  Doral gives Florida golf a bad name, but whatever floats your boat! 

[BCowan]

Bob:  How does that statement constitute a "home-run"?

I'll take a shot. 

Because the strategic demands of the updated design require some thought rather than full tilt boogie bomb & gouge. 

   I guess I have to relearn what strategic golf is...  I'll have none of that strategic design...

[Tom ORourke]

Comment from Mickelson - "The only thing I would say is that if you only have 15 mile per hour winds, no problem. But this isn’t an anomaly. We get this every year, so you’ve got to kind of be ready for it.”
From Chris Kirk - “The golf course in no wind is a difficult golf course; in 30 mile-per-hour wind, it’s nearly impossible,”
The ninth hole is a par 3 and Bubba laid up. That reminds me of the 91 Ryder Cup at Kiawah when Faldo spent 5 minutes on the 14th tee Sunday trying to convince himself to lay up as he did not have the shot for that hole. There might be a problem there.

The fact is that 68 players hitting 113 balls (113!!) into water hazards in one day, albeit a very windy one, especially when a good number of them were hit onto greens with short irons, means that not enough thought went into strategy. Yes the greens need another year to mature. But I am not going to be one of the people who spend $450 to see how it plays when it softens a bit.

[Connor Dougherty]

Comment from Mickelson - "The only thing I would say is that if you only have 15 mile per hour winds, no problem. But this isn’t an anomaly. We get this every year, so you’ve got to kind of be ready for it.”
From Chris Kirk - “The golf course in no wind is a difficult golf course; in 30 mile-per-hour wind, it’s nearly impossible,”
The ninth hole is a par 3 and Bubba laid up. That reminds me of the 91 Ryder Cup at Kiawah when Faldo spent 5 minutes on the 14th tee Sunday trying to convince himself to lay up as he did not have the shot for that hole. There might be a problem there.

The fact is that 68 players hitting 113 balls (113!!) into water hazards in one day, albeit a very windy one, especially when a good number of them were hit onto greens with short irons, means that not enough thought went into strategy. Yes the greens need another year to mature. But I am not going to be one of the people who spend $450 to see how it plays when it softens a bit.

To be fair, I did not watch the coverage today, so I'm merely asking questions, not trying to force conclusions.

How many players attempted to reach the 15th green? How many were successful/unsuccessful? Who ended up in the water there? Is that a good indicator of the quality of the hole?

I refuse to believe that the 15th is a terrible hole because Bubba Watson decided to lay up. Isn't that one of the greatest characteristics of the 16th at Cypress Point? Bubba fired a 72 today, an excellent score given the conditions the guys faced today.

Others mentioned the new greens. I agree with them: next year, they will be softer.

Despite all of the comments on the golf course today, I've been amazed by the amount of width there is at Doral now. Is the 113 water balls is a matter of the tour guys being aggressive, windy conditions, or flawed course design? Looking at the course via pictures and briefly through television, I believe it's the latter.

Something to keep in mind: These are almost the toughest possible conditions these guys could face, and two guys ended up under par. Since when did we require golf courses to be designed so the best in the world would consistently go under?

[Matthew Rose]

Pretty much all the water balls I saw (and I saw a BUNCH) were seemingly well-struck balls that bounded and then trickled into the hazards. I'm shocked at how little the rough on the banks did to resist the balls from going in.

[Bill_McBride]

Bob:  How does that statement constitute a "home-run"?

I'll take a shot. 

Because the strategic demands of the updated design require some thought rather than full tilt boogie bomb & gouge. 

   I guess I have to relearn what strategic golf is...  I'll have none of that strategic design...

Strategic golf means sometimes you have to play away from the line of instinct to score well.  It's not always possible to fly the ball up close to the flagstick with water behind a hard green downwind.    It's a style pretty foreign to modern pros who are pretty much one trick ponies.  That's one reason it's so much fun to watch the Open Championship every July on those hot links courses in the UK.  Can Dustin Johnson finesse a bump and run?   Does he want to try?

[jeffwarne]

Total nonsense
if this were the TPC there'd be GCA orgasms spewing
30 mph winds at Royal Portrush or Bethpage Black would produce the exact same results-except they would be walking back to the tees hitting three after countless 5 minute searches:
Amazing how the US Open produces the same scores with no weather and that's expected and applauded.

It's called the Blue Monster-not the pink kitten

a tough weather day, and the PGA can't fathom pacing the greens appropriately.
The weather has been predicted since monday.

As Mike Young says, the weekend will be more benign.

[Pat Burke]

Quick recap, not that it means anything!
I was born in S. Florida, and played a ton of golf there.
My dad was a head professional in the Hollywood area.
I played 4 Honda classics, and 3 tournaments at Doral.

Two of the Honda's, we suffered rounds at least as difficult as (it appeared) today was
at Doral.  Scores soared, and the field averages were comical.  I went from T-65 (or so),
to T-5 after a 67 on a Saturday at Honda (Weston Hills).  It was easily a 3 club wind.

So?
My experience of early March golf in S. Florida, consisted of nervously waiting for the wind storm
that would hammer us.  For me, it is an expected part of golf there.

[Greg Chambers]

the wind is why we play the game

[Sean_A]

Total nonsense
if this were the TPC there'd be GCA orgasms spewing
30 mph winds at Royal Portrush or Bethpage Black would produce the exact same results-except they would be walking back to the tees hitting three after countless 5 minute searches:
Amazing how the US Open produces the same scores with no weather and that's expected and applauded.

It's called the Blue Monster-not the pink kitten

a tough weather day, and the PGA can't fathom pacing the greens appropriately.
The weather has been predicted since monday.

As Mike Young says, the weekend will be more benign.

Because Portrush is too narrow (and it certainly is) to allow for the sort of weather it enjoys does not make Doral good for not having enough space.  From what I saw, the design does not accommodate the sort wind that will whip up in that part of the country.  To me, this is a design fault.  Maybe things will calm down once the course settles in.  But even so, where does that leave the punter?  I wasn't terribly interested in making an effort to see Doral prior to this event and I am even less inclined to do so now. 

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

I will credit Jeff's point early in the thread that this course would be working out far more reasonably with two feet less pace on the greens. The lost balls on approach shots seem to be more of a trickle problem than a bounce problem.

Two feet less on the Stimp and the occasional strip of 1/2" longer rough along some of the fairway fall-offs and you'd still see lots of balls in the water. But at least attempts to play properly flighted shots or those aimed properly away from the flag would be more often rewarded. I saw plenty of shots that were attempting to accommodate the rock-hard greens and wind none the less find water after rolling 30-40 feet (after they stopped bouncing).