[Brent Hutto]

In that case the simple answer is "Not if they have to buy the land, build the course and "affordable" is less than 100 bucks or so". Maybe 75 bucks in places where land is still cheap (but those tend to be places with very few people willing to spend 75 bucks to play golf.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

You speak of playing golf for $22 and $35 which is awesome but are they making any money or at least breaking even?  Revenue has to exceed expenses.  Any idea how many rounds those courses do?

Steve Blake

That's my whole point.
With affordable golf everywhere, why on earth would anyone want to bring in more supply?
Played all three courses in under 4 hours in 4somes and 2 of the course in 3 hours in 4some
never been a better time to be a golf consumer, if people can stop fixating on what Doral, Streamsong, and Bandon charge

[Lou_Duran]

And to piggy-back on what Jim Sherma says above, the muni was their country club. That generation took civics classes in school, joined the scouts and lived, breathed and preached nationalism. Supporting the town golf course lined up perfectly with their approach to God, Country and Golf.

And then the governments thought they discovered a new source of revenues to fund other non-fee generating parks and recreation ventures, so they got into the CCFAD business.  Human nature being what it is, it became a game of keeping up with the Joneses.  If City A nearby had a new great Keith Foster course, City B built a more impressive Graham/Panks design complete with a better clubhouse and a high cuisine chef.  These began to compete with the more upscale privately owned daily-fee courses and the country clubs, and as the economy and golf market turned south, they jumped right in and lowered their proforma green fees which were used to secure voter approval and bond financing, helping to exacerbate the vicious circle the golf industry is still in today.  Nothing is more demoralizing to a risk-taking owner/operator to know that he, as a taxpayer, is forced to compete with his own business, which is driving it into the ground.  We all like subsidized stuff.  Given the many much more serious public needs facing most communities, I would suggest that golf at more than a very rudimentary level is not among them.  

[Brent Hutto]

...never been a better time to be a golf consumer, if people can stop fixating on what Doral, Streamsong, and Bandon charge

And as a callback to that Other thread...

The golf equipment business is also totally a buyer's market. The golf balls you can buy for a dollar or two and the clubs you can get when they're a couple models out of date (but often NOS) for much less than the inflation-adjusted price of clubs decades ago are superior to anything on the market in the 80's or 90's.

But you can point to the rack rate price of the current model-of-the-month Taylormade gear and the $50/dozen retail price of the latest ProV1 and say "Oh, nobody can afford to take up the game. A bag of clubs costs $2,500 and the golf balls are 4 bucks a pop". No they're not, those prices are overstated by at least 4x even if you ignore used clubs which are practically free. And in an awful lot of the country you can play golf twice a week for a year for what Kavenaugh spent on 36 holes plus caddy fees and tips at Streamsong.

[BCowan]

''When you grew up there weren't so many damn old people like your parents clogging up the fairways day in and day out.  There just ain't room for the help no more.  When I was a kid there were four women and two old men who maybe played three times a week.  On a nine hole course it was nothing to have 20 tweens out playing, learning and loving the game.  Doesn't work now with modern medicine and early retirement.''

   It does work, this was in 2000 and they still do it today.  Are you saying your course does 280 rounds a day?  You don't have slots open after 3pm at the Head Pro's discretion to allow a kid who actually works now a days to play golf?  Please..  Many Florida courses allow their cart boys playing privileges along with the job.  

I'm talking about the nine hole course where I grew up and people work for a living.  The course is full all day.  In the morning with retired teachers, bankers and shift workers.  In the afternoon with working teachers, bankers and their friends who don't play until they get off work.  My point being that in the last 30 years the golfing demographic has drastically changed.  There just isn't room for non members to play.

Nigel Islam visited me to play this year, either December or January, and the course was full mid week.  It is astonishing.

I played everyday from 1968 until 1978 and the course was empty during working hours because back in the day everyone worked until they were physically broken or dead.  It is amazing how old the golfing public is today.  Maybe it is because old people where I live can't afford to move to Florida.  We can't bury them fast enough.

Jkava, I am talking about private clubs allowing bagroom kids to play in the afternoon.  Most of their tee sheets aren't solid booked morning till night!

[John Kavanaugh]

Awarii Dunes made the effort.  As their first every stay and play customer I still love the place.  It is nice to see them making progress but I am still troubled by the use of the creepy Mother and Son picture on their website.  Looks like the clubhouse is up.

http://www.awariidunes.com/stay-and-play-application

[John Kavanaugh]

Ben,

The people who work the bag rooms at clubs that have bag rooms do get to go out and play.  It's just hard to schedule.  Sadly it is almost impossible for one kid not to ruin it for everyone else.  Last year we had a bag room kid hit into us twice after standing in the fairway with his hands on his hips throwing eye daggers at us for taking longer than his precious schedule allowed.  I haven't seen a kid out there since.

I think if you look into it you will find the problem is not with the members it is with the modern work ethic and lack of respect for people and property that pollutes our youth.

[Mike_Young]

  You can certainly find a local community that is willing to subsidize a golf course because of its benefits including recreational as well as green space.  AND  I attended Richard Mandell's symposium and Ron Whitten demonstrated that no matter how little you pay for a course you can still lose money as a course operator. 

Jerry,
A few thoughts:
1.  One of the biggest problems for owners trying to provide affordable golf is muni golf.  The small owner is paying taxes and trying to compete with a course using his tax money and being subsidized by his county or city.  That's just pure BS....

2.  Most of us have heard of the best restaurants  in NYC or DC or any other large city but very few of us know of the best small restaurants in small town America.  The same goes for golf.  Don't base affordable golf on round rates.  In any small town if a person plays enough golf he can join a course for around $150 or less per month.   Also most of us eat at a Subway or something much more than fine dining.  Fine dining doesn't try to compete with Subway nor should Trump or Keiser.  A frequent problem on this site is that so many profess to be fine dining Connoisseurs when it comes to golf yet they don't know how to fold a napkin or hold a fork or even know which fork to use.

3.  Ron Whitten has no clue about how a profit is made by the average owner in America.  I like Ron and recognize his knowledge as it pertains to areas of golf but that's not one of them.  When guys come to speak of how to make golf affordable and they have not been signing the front of the checks then forget it.  Go find the owner that can keep a greensmower for 15 years or a fairway unit for 20.  Find a guy who buys 15 golf cars a year and doesn't lease them but makes them function PROPERLY for 10 years.  Find the guy who is at Sam's on Friday morning buying hot dogs and hamburgers, candy bars for the weekend rounds.  Find the guy who takes a beer out to his good customers when it's hot as hell and they had to wait for some slapdicks playing in front of them all day.  Find the guy that buys last year's closeout shirts for less than half of this year's model and make more profit than the shop with four assistants.  Find the guy who tells the PGA pro  he does not acknowledge his comp since he called his private club a few days ahead of when he was to play there and was told he could not be comped since he was just an owner and not a PGA member.  

Often so many forget that this site is made to discuss maybe 250 golf courses.  Those of us that have made a living designing and building courses that many may find "not worthy" of this site are not intimidated when we see a PGA President speaking on affordable golf.  We are humored.  People have to understand that there is an element amongst the 16000 golf courses that sees thru the bullshit and just does their thing.  They respect the supt that keeps a course in peak shape with four guys not the association president that speak of how he needs four assistants.  So much of what you see at conferences is all spoken by employees whether golf pros, supts or club managers.  And often there is an air amongst them that the smaller operator has no clue.  

You will not be taught affordable golf by people you have heard of nationally.  Think about it.  Their associations and livlihoods are depending on sponsors such as irrigation companies, equipment companies,ball companies, shirt companies that would not want to hear the truth.

So, affordable golf is an option but it was never meant to be an option for Trump or Keiser....their golf was meant to be that treat just like a fine dining restaurant....

[Peter Pallotta]

Yup, I've had to stop griping about this, as I realized it was probably mostly envy and want and idle speculation driving my words, not anything actual/real in my experience.  As Brent notes, good solid equipment can be hand for very little (just last week, just to remind myself that golf was indeed coming in a month or so, I bought a set of Titlelist DCI irons - around the Ping Eye 2 era -- in almost new condition for $69, and a box of slightly used Bridgestone E6s for $9); and my home course can be played for as little as $30 dollars later in the day, walking, and i do that as much as I can. And as jeff notes, I bet that experience of affordable golf is replicated in smaller towns or outside big cities all over North America, the golf being good and the courses modest and architecturally sound. In short, the game is more affordable than ever before, and even the peak experiences of bandon or Streamsong etc etc aren't 'unaffordable' (I've had to admit), they are simply more money than I want/need to spend on golf - any kind of golf, anywhere.
Peter

[jeffwarne]

Peter,
Those "small towns" I played in were Phoenix and Miami, in both cases a stone's throw from the airport and within a mile of Doral.
It's out there.

[BCowan]

Epic post Mr Young!


JKava, I actually agree with you for the most part.  It is too bad to let one or two bad apples ruin it for the rest. 

[Brent Hutto]

Peter,
Those "small towns" I played in were Phoenix and Miami, in both cases a stone's throw from the airport and within a mile of Doral.
It's out there.

Did you play at Papago? I liked Papago but it was more than that the day I played.

[Paul Gray]

Mike,

An excellent post, the essence of which I entirely agree with. However, I must take you up on the following:

This site, surely, doesn't solely exist to discuss 250 courses. We may well discuss at length the TOCS, Pine Valleys and Royal County Downs of this world but there's surely a place for lesser, more affordable places.

Is a review of Painswick not welcomed here? Is TD not supposed to mention golf in Afghanistan? These places are surely the essence of affordable, 'pure' golf and have a place on this site.

Since the food analogue seems to work well around here, there's room for the Michelin star places and room for the quaint bistros as well. What we don't need is a review of McDonalds.

[Sean_A]

Jeff

I agree with you.  The world is made of affordable golf.  Its down to the consumer to discover what floats his boat.  Sure its a compromise, but so is all of life.  Why should golf be any different?  To be fair though, the US is a great place for purely affordable golf.  I can't imagine anywhere else in the world can touch the US for quantity and quality of affordable golf.   

I can't honestly see a rich guy investing in a course charging $30 unless he is doing it for some other reason than to make money.  I can, however, see a guy investing time and money in the same project with the hope of making a decent living. 

Ciao

[ChipRoyce]

A few comments:

I think its safe to define affordable golf as $60 or less in major US cities with high costs of living (and golf) (NY, LA, San Fran), and Sub $40 in the rest of the country.

Can affordable work? To me that's really only a factor for Privately owned, daily fee courses. And for those, a very complex formula that I don't think there's an easy answer for.

Daily Fee courses, unlike the other 2 categories are all about return on investment / capital.

So many factors to take into account:
Current Market: Competition, demand, customer expectations for amenities, etc...
Up-Front capital: What to invest to build a new course / acquire existing facility
Expenses; Water, Labor for Maintenance, Equipment and fertilizer, etc...
Capital Expectations: Whomever fronted the $'s expect X return and that will influence the biz plan

For the other 2 categories: Municipal and Private clubs:

1) Municipals course? Yes - they'll find the optimal maintenance mix based on an equation that factors a) how much municipal subsidy goes into it b) revenues and c)

2) Private clubs? Perhaps, just comes down to how the club is organized, cost vs. amenity expectations and cost inputs.

[jeffwarne]

Peter,
Those "small towns" I played in were Phoenix and Miami, in both cases a stone's throw from the airport and within a mile of Doral.
It's out there.

Did you play at Papago? I liked Papago but it was more than that the day I played.

Encanto,
$22 after 3- $35 before
Other course was Miami Springs which is a Donald Ross very near Doral.
Back nine is as good as ANY course I've played in a long time
Miami Springs(the course, neighborhood, and town) was always an oasis in the middle of the urban hell/blight that is Miami-and a renovation since i was last there has it presented in reasonable condition-a real joy to play.

I am not suggesting more munis or that these are good business models-certainly not from scratch.
I'm saying there is a ton of affordable golf out there ,whether on purpose or not.
Enjoy it while it lasts, because unless subsidized by something, it won't last forever.

[Jerry Kluger]

Mike: Ron Whitten bought a golf course in Kansas that was very affordable and lost his shirt.  He gave a very informative presentation about his experience at Richard Mandell's symposium.

[Jim Tang]

What were the rates at Bandon when it first opened? Any significant difference from what they are now? I'd always heard that it was planned to be much more affordable before the market spoke as loudly as it did.

Mark - I remember being at Bandon in July the 2nd year Pacific Dunes was open for play.  I believe the first round was $100 and the second round was $50, which I considered a complete steal.  I also was under the impression that Bandon's original model was to provide fairly affordable, high quality golf.  I absolutely love Bandon, having been there three times.  I have also been a bit disappointed by the skyrocketing prices out there.  A four day stay on site is now very expensive, at least by my standards.

There is plenty of affordable golf out there.  I live in the Chicagoland area and many daily fee courses can be had for $35 to $50 during the week or at off peak times.  Are they world class facilities?  No.  But, many are decent, solid layouts and I am happy to play the majority of my rounds there. 

[Sam Morrow]

Great post Mike.

[Steven Blake]

Mike Young is on FIRE!! Good stuff and well said.

Steve Blake

[DMoriarty]

A few thoughts:
1.  One of the biggest problems for owners trying to provide affordable golf is muni golf.  The small owner is paying taxes and trying to compete with a course using his tax money and being subsidized by his county or city.  That's just pure BS....

Mike, recently you started a thread asking what golf would be like without the invention of the golf cart.   While some (including me) didn't agree with some of it, the general implication was that the game was better off because carts brought people to the game, made the golf more accessible, and tilted the economics so as to keep green fees down, etc.  

Perhaps you should consider what golf would be like if municipal golf had never been invented.  

[Mike Schott]

Mike, I have an issue with your point #1. The city where I live has 2 muni's and nearby are many more. None of these city's have the financial strength to subsidize the cost of the golf. I suppose the initial cost was subsidized but that's no different than a local sports complex or performing arts center. These courses are affordable and get a lot of play, mainly in carts which is their business model. They also outsource the dining areas which brings in income. They are certainly not charity cases. In my town which won't even pass a millage to improve our aging schools, a course that was subsidized would never make it.

As far as a private owner being able to compete at these rates, in 2014, there is no chance and it would be a bad business decision. All of these local courses are at least 15 years old and most are 40-50 years old. I agree with you here.

[BCowan]

http://www.southtoledogolf.com/

Here you go right here.  3 muni's and one private owned public course all managed privately.  All the 18 hole courses are the same price.  Yes, now with oversupply you have public courses that are as inexpensive as muni's.  If there was never a muni, there would still be inexpensive Golf in most of the US. 

[Mike_Young]

David,
That's a good point...I have sort of a hybrid take on muni golf.  I have designed and built 5 for various municipalities.  If a town is in a spot where there is no other privately owned public golf course competing then OK...BUT once the private sector comes in they need to make sure each is on the same playing field or shut it down. 

Mike S,
You are right. These courses are usually built no different than a local sports complex or performing arts center.  If there were no private owners in the area then perhaps it is acceptable but once the private sector enters they need the same playing field...the way I read your post is that a privately owned public course could kill it in your area if the muni's were not involved    JMO

[Mike_Young]

Mike: Ron Whitten bought a golf course in Kansas that was very affordable and lost his shirt.  He gave a very informative presentation about his experience at Richard Mandell's symposium.

Jerry,
I respect RW and I don't like to see anyone lose their shirt in the golf business.  I am sure he gave a very good presentation.  My comment stated "Ron Whitten has no clue about how a PROFIT is made by the average owner in America.".... 

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