News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.

Pages: [1] 2

Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Best Golf Developent with Housing
« on: August 13, 2003, 01:48:15 PM »
I know that many here would agree that they would like to never see a house on or near a golf course.

My question is that there may be a few examples of where the developer and designer worked together to find the happy medium.

What are some of the better developments that could be models for future development?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2003, 01:48:41 PM by RCS »
Logged

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2003, 02:22:58 PM »
RCS:

Aren't Cypress Point and Pebble Beach the best examples?

Both were part of the Del Monte company's plan to lure East Coast visitors and sell real estate.

Didn't the developer and the designers work togther beautifully?

Other fine examples would have to include The Country Club in Cleveland and Crystal Downs in Michigan. For something more modern, I remember enjoying Love Cove in Hilton Head.
Logged
Tim Weiman

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2003, 02:49:40 PM »
Wentworth.
Logged

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2003, 03:13:24 PM »
Bob,

You find Wentworth better than Pebble?  (I can't call Cypress a housing tract, since no homes are on the interior and most of the visible homes on the exterior border just holes 2-4.)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2003, 03:15:12 PM by Scott_Burroughs »
Logged

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2003, 03:14:22 PM »
 :D

I'm biased..

The Woodlands CC has historically had Residential Design standards, including some for golf adjacent fencing (height, color, & style) and setbacks..  I think it has worked pretty well, measured by the fact that I only have several house/roof type aiming points at the Oaks, Panther Trail, Palmer, Player or TPC courses combined.  Then there's Carlton Woods' Nicklaus and soon to come Fazio course, where residential densities are just low to start.  

If there's just a little bit of natural separation and the housing isn't in your face all the time it can be more than OK..   Now take some of the CCFAD courses and surround them with 50-75' wide lots and you have a disaster, Like Southwyk in Pearland and perhaps in the future at Magnolia Creek in League City.    
Logged
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2003, 03:28:50 PM »
Scott,

Re Wentworth and Pebble.There is nothing as jarring at Wentworth, as the houses alongside the 18th at Pebble, the most jarring I am afraid, owned by a TEXAN!  
Logged

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2003, 03:48:02 PM »
Scott Burroughs:

I understand RCS to be looking for a "model" for golf and real estate development. Why disqualify Cypress Point just because it doesn't have any homes in the interior? Wouldn't you like to see more real estate developers follow the example set by the Del Monte Company?

FYI, by your logic one would have to disqualify Country in Cleveland as well. All the houses are around the outside and one can barely see them. Why do you think there is a better "happy medium"? What is your better idea?
Logged
Tim Weiman

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2003, 03:59:49 PM »
Tim,

I was actually answering Bob's response incorrectly, not Cliff's question,  and I (for some strange reason) got to thinking of which was the better housing course, not which was a better model for a housing course.  I think Cypress' model is virtually ideal (using the best or mostly best land for the course, on one central part of the property, having the housing on the exterior, as out of sight as possible), one I hope that the 3rd and 4th courses at Bandon follow.

Based on Bandon's expansion plans (straight from their web site) I posted a little while ago, I was a little afraid of the possibility of too much development around those courses, especially the 3rd.
Logged

Jeremy_Glenn.

Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2003, 04:02:50 PM »
Never seen it, but I've heard Muirfield Village is a very good example.
Logged

A_Clay_Man

Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2003, 04:04:57 PM »
Redlands Mesa compromised with the front nine holes w/ houses visable and are quite quick to point out that homes will never be built on the back nine. But even the homes sites on the front, are not too constricting, Worth a look.

The Preserve has strict restrictions on the placement of any home, with as I understand it, the goal of making no structure visable from the course. Does anybody know how they are surviving the recent downturn? Bob?
Logged

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2003, 04:05:11 PM »
St George's Hill was the first (1912/3) and the best.
Logged
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2003, 04:10:03 PM »
Paul,

Any pics or a plan?  What about aerials.

IF anybody has a few pics that would be great.
Logged

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2003, 04:15:18 PM »
Scott:

Thanks.

Jeremy Glenn:

Muirfield Village is okay. It is basically the model I've described - housing around the outside. But, I don't feel like it was done with the same class as Country or Crystal Downs. To be fair, maybe it is just age.
Logged
Tim Weiman

Robert_Walker

Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2003, 05:40:35 PM »
Pebble's worst aspects are its housing and its cart paths.
The housing along the 18th hole is most annoying.
Windsor at Vero Beach has housing away from the course, and it is set on a traditional street grid. More developers should do this and SELL the idea.
I despise the Cul de Sac gated culture.
Side Yards are useless.
Keep the DogLeg
Lose the Cul de Sac
« Last Edit: August 14, 2003, 01:01:16 PM by Robert_Walker »
Logged

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2003, 06:00:33 PM »
Can't name names, but both Fazio and Rees have recently done housing/golf club combos where the course is essentially a core course.  I remember lots of articles touting the idea that the best course would enhance the values more than individual views.  If so, these would qualify in my mind.....
Logged
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2003, 06:11:37 PM »
I nominate Royal Dornach and Ballybunion....the Trailer Park motif  works for me! ;D;D
Logged
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2003, 06:47:25 PM »
It's still too early to tell, but Cuscowilla seems to be going about it the right way. There is a core golf area. The housing is in a separate section, with most of the lots on Lake Oconee well away from the course.

Bob
Logged

Art_Schaupeter

Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2003, 07:39:51 PM »
Jeff B.,

Do you recall the specific articles that discussed the value of a core golf course in a residential development?  I could use some additional ammunition with a specific partner on one of my projects.  High end private club that routes beautifully as a core course.  The development overall pencils out well into the eight figures, yet one partner is continually trying to change the routing to create maximum frontage, all while using minimal acreage! ::)

I have been able to fend him off so far, but additional material backing up my arguments wouldn't hurt.

(By the way, my new favorite NHL player...Derian Hatcher! ;D

Art
Logged

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2003, 08:09:10 PM »
....i think if the housing ,and property lines ,extend into and affect play ,thats not good.....but can be forgiven if 'good' golf overcomes the intrusion......does the 'ould town' and #17 adversely affect the st andrews experience ?............the key is in the balance................

   we are currently designing this same element into some of our recent designs ,to provide for the best 'good' golf .


  others ,[and RCS][hey!],will decide if this proves successful......
« Last Edit: August 13, 2003, 08:12:33 PM by paul cowley »
Logged
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2003, 08:20:38 PM »
Art,
There was an article in a Landscape magazine(?) this year written by Hal Philips about the trend towards developments having a core golf facility separate from housing.
I recall a course mentioned was Brian Silva's Black Rock in Mass.
The message as I interpreted it was if you wanted to have the golf portion of the plan be a profitable entity (not just a loss leader to sell real estate) you ought to make some considerations for the layout.
I'll also vote for Cuscowilla as a fine example.
Mike

Logged
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2003, 08:40:42 PM »
Desert Island by desmond Muirhead has always been considered one of the great land plans with golf and housing. In fact, Desmond was a master an integrating housing without throwing golf under the bus.
Logged
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2003, 09:22:57 PM »
I'd go with Mountain Lake--probably the very first planned golf course/residential development in the world--a 1915 collaboration of Seth Raynor for golf and Olmstead for a residential plan. The place probably hasn't changed all that much either.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2003, 09:23:56 PM by TEPaul »
Logged

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2003, 09:34:08 PM »
TE Paul,
Pasatiempo was Olmstead also but maybe a little later.  Know it was one of the first.  Also had some FLW houses
Logged
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Steve_L.

Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2003, 10:52:40 PM »
Jeff/Art,

A core Fazio project with two 18-hole coures is Berkley Hall, west of Hilton Head Island, SC.  It is very impressive, with an excellent entry.  The clubhouse is overdone, but the golf/residential relationship is positive.

Chechessee Creek also has just a few cottages integrated in a low key fashion.  Spring Island, SC may be the best integration of housing/environment just about anywhere - and oh by the way there is golf there too...
Logged

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Golf Developent with Housing
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2003, 11:17:54 PM »
Played the 2nd Fazio course at Berkeley, an impressive facility no doubt, with some good holes on the course i played, course was still young(only a few weeks old when we played), but nothing memorable.  was nice to see a course in that area without homes all over.

long cove did have homes, but nothing that i remember that really came into play.

if you want the worst courses with homes, or how homes ruined a course, i could certainly nominate a few!
Logged
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com
Pages: [1] 2
Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back