[Mike_Young]

How many golf courses would we have?

How many golfers would we have presently ?

And how much would the average green fee be?

I say we would have 40% less courses, 40% less golfers and green fees would be 50% higher.

Say you??

[Bill_McBride]

I dunno except there would be a lot less golf played in the Deep South between June and September!

You are assuming that carts are a significant addition to the bottom line.   Are you factoring in original cost of constructing cart paths, as well as cart-caused damage repair and cost of leasing and operating the fleet?   I always wonder....

[Brent Hutto]

Are you asking about rack rate "green fees"? Or are you talking about the amount per golfer taken in?

I suspect there's a tendency for the total amount extracted from the pocket of each golfer, on average, to be similar whether it's a "green fee" for a walking-only course or a "green fee" plus "cart fee" for a carts-only course.

So I'll buy your 40% of courses not built, maybe I'll buy the 40% fewer golfers (maybe) but I think the revenue per golfer would be very similar to what it is now. It's just that all the revenue would be labeled "green fee".

[Jason Topp]

While the situations are not identical, you could compare changes in number of golf courses, participation, and costs in the UK (where carts are still rare) between 1950 and the present with similar changes in the US. 

[DMoriarty]

Well since we are just making things up . . .

I'd say that golf courses that did exist would be better.  The golfers would be more committed to the game.  Green fees would be down.  And we'd have a lot less golf course architects, but that is no skin off my nose.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Probably be fewer courses over 6,500 yards.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - A quarter of the courses, less than a quarter of the golfers, and Donald Ross would still be alive today, designing his 4,000th course (every course in America being one of his, except for NGLA and Merion) while at the same time counting to infinity twice as the costs of playing the game (at private clubs only, there'd be no such thing as public golf) approached at least $500 k in initation fees and about 30 k in annual dues. You wouldn't be here, nor would Tom D nor Jeff B, and I certainly wouldn't be either -- in fact, all that would be left of gca.com would be Ran trying to moderate interesting discussions between John K and Pat M (the only two participants), and failing every time. So in short, HURRAY FOR CARTS!

Peter

[Mike_Young]

Peter,
I think you are closer than some of the others.

IMHO it seems the other post are missing the fact that if the existing courses could not shoe a profit they would close and so greenf ees would not be lower they would have to be higher.  I think the reality of the modern golfer and the cart relationship is missed on this site.  Forget the cost of paths etc...   I just think many would not even consider taking the first swing at a golf ball if the cart had not been there....and I'm not saying either is right or wrong...

[DMoriarty]

Mike, your calculation might apply if golf courses were suddenly barred from golf, but if carts had never been invented the economics of golf would have been entirely different from the beginning.  I don't think you can say that the cost would necessarily be higher without carts. 

[Mike_Young]

Mike, your calculation might apply if golf courses were suddenly barred from golf, but if carts had never been invented the economics of golf would have been entirely different from the beginning.  I don't think you can say that the cost would necessarily be higher without carts. 

David,
You're right...let's say they were suddenly barred...then the economics would have been much different and golf probably would never have been used as an amenity for housing...but if the average public course were to tell golfers today they couldnot use carts it would be a disaster...

[BCowan]

Mike

    If we did this hypothetical, how many American golfers can walk and would walk if carts weren't available?  Growing up at a walking course, I see 70 year old's walking and lazy 30 year old's taking carts.  I know people that take carts in the US and when they play golf in Ireland they all of a sudden can walk all the courses.  There would be less courses for sure without carts, but the average run of the mill public would be better IMHO.  I think looking at UK numbers would be interesting.  $30k for a private course and $500k initiation, lol! How did courses survive prior to the carts?  Was maint spending more in check prior to the golf carts?

[Mike_Young]

Ben,
I don't know all of those answers but if it were as David says and "all carts were banned tomorrow".  We would have a disaster. 
If carts had never existed golf may have been in better shape today.  We would not have many of the routings we now have with the long walks from green to next tee etc and we would just have less courses.  Fat guys do not walk and golf has a lot of fat guys playing.  They don't have the same view of golf as a Scot or Irishman.  For so many here it is a chance to drink beer, it the ball and hangout at the clubhouse afterwards.  I don't think many of the participants even try to really improve their games...

[BCowan]

''I don't know all of those answers but if it were as David says and "all carts were banned tomorrow".  We would have a disaster.
If carts had never existed golf may have been in better shape today.  We would not have many of the routings we now have with the long walks from green to next tee etc and we would just have less courses.  Fat guys do not walk and golf has a lot of fat guys playing.  They don't have the same view of golf as a Scot or Irishman.  For so many here it is a chance to drink beer, it the ball and hangout at the clubhouse afterwards.  I don't think many of the participants even try to really improve their games...''

   If you banned them tomrw there would definitely be a disaster.  Many would figure out ways to drink and still play golf (Irish, English, and myself).  Golf is addictive sport and like I said the guy that went over to Ireland was a fat guy.  The ''case study'' would be if they would change their outlook if carts were removed from the equation?  ''Walking and drinking beer'', that is what golf bags are for, beer cart girls, and halfway houses are for depending on the course.  Most definitely don't try to improve their game, agree completely.  If the golf cart is heroin, you don't cut an addict off cold turkey, you ween them off.   Keiser could charge $100 for a golf cart, just a fun case study, what do you think of that?

[Dwight Phelps]

I think the pace of play would be much improved if golf carts didn't exist or were suddenly banned.

[Nick Schaan]

The golf cart may have been the single biggest thing that grew the game. There must be a stat out there that indicated the percentages of rounds played using a cart. How many people would play without it?

When confined to the paths they make golf miserable and slow, when you can drive right to your ball they are quite useful. When sharing a cart, people need to be taught to drop one player off, and go to the next ball. The player to play first can walk to the cart while the other plays. Instead we share a cart and act like each others caddies, wait for each player to play before moving on and take far too long. It not the tool, but the mechanic.

The golf cart allows me to play a few holes after work with my young kids and wife a couple nights a week. We hop a cart, I play, the kids hit a few from a spot of my choosing, and she drives. Once they are 10 or so, then it will be time to walk. Without the cart I would either miss out on golf, or my family. With it I get to enjoy both.

[BHoover]

I don't want to contemplate a world without golf carts.

[Frank Giordano]

Mike,

A theoretical approach to answering your questions:

Try to learn the number of courses that existed here when the first Arthritis Special was put into play at the River Oaks Country Club.
Try to learn too what percentage of the population played at that time, at both private and public courses.
And try to calculate what the average round cost at that time, figuring average costs of both private clubs' annual dues and public courses' average fees.

When you get all that information -- if it's even possible -- and compare it to contemporary figures, you'll probably learn what a very small part golf played in American life before the cart rolled up.  The estimates offered so far are likely to be very optimistic.

[Lou_Duran]

Interesting questions.  50%+ fewer, 60%+ fewer, up by inflation.

Probably of greater consequence, what would it be like if the air conditioner was never invented?  Would Detroit's population exceed its peak of the 1950s?

[Sean_A]

Typically, the responses are N American centered.  I don't think any difference has occurred in GB&I.  Okay, you get the odd guy who can continue to play despite infirmities, but big picture - no difference.  Probably the centre of golf would still be the UK rather than the US - and that would probably be a very good thing. 

We presume the world would have less golfers and courses and overall better quality courses, but I wonder of golf stayed close to its roots in the US if this would actually be the case.  I don't think golf would be more expensive, likely about the same as now.  The true cart courses necessarily on stupid land for golf don't drive golf prices because these courses tend to be in the sticks. 

In summary, overall, golf would be far better off without carts.

Ciao

[Steve Salmen]

Last I read there are roughly 14,600 golf courses in the US.  It has been declining by roughly 150/yr the last five years or so.  

I take it a step further and wonder how fewer courses there would be in the absence of carts and beer sales.  I think there would be closer to 6000 courses in the US.

My point is that playing golf is not enough.  Americans like to ride and drink beer and because we are willing to pay for these compliments, growth in the game has been incredibly higher than it would be otherwise.

[Brent Hutto]

Or at least growth in riding around, drinking beer and slapping at the golf ball once in a while.

All depends on ones definition of "the game". In my reckoning, some of the activities taking place on a golf course are more tenuously related to "playing golf" than others.

[Brent Hutto]

As I'm overly fond of pointing out, already far more than half the golf courses in my area are unavailable to me simply because they won't let me walk their course.

So if carts disappeared and half the courses in the country went up in a puff of greasy smoke the next day, I might still end up with more places to play.

[V. Kmetz]

The golf car is only behind

1. the feathery-gutta innovation
&
2. the hickory-steel innovation

as to importance for subsequent billions to enjoy the game.

If one would remove carts from the equation, it tells me instantly they only give a shit about themselves and their opinions

As a leftist prick, I don't give too much thought to the aspects of industry and capitalism that they may or may not have bolstered, but I suspect--as other's say here--that it has been good for those who do concern themselves with that.

As a leftist prick who cares about a carts' impact on the health of a course, I think agreeable policies can be established governing their use.

I like carts; I like cart paths; I like driving a cart. I like that the infirm, old or disabled persons can play golf with them. I like throwing my smokes and wallet and a handful of tees into the cubby; I like carts with a lot of cup holders to hold many beverages. I like Dusty League guys at the local muni 9-holer pulling beers from the 30 pack in the basket, like arrows from a quiver. I like sitting in a cart and marking down the score on the hub of the wheel.  I like taking refuge in the shade of a cart with a roof. I like bullshitting with my partner under its shelter while we wait for the rain to subside. I like when we're out there alone and decide to go back and play the hole again. I like watching fools who drive their cart poorly, pushing their cart out of the mud or taking a hill so fast that they have a near-death experience doing a '720' near the bottom.

I like carts - its one of the few things that is just as grand and glorious as when it was first invented--perhaps, even better.

cheers

vk

[Bill_McBride]

The golf car is only behind

1. the feathery-gutta innovation
&
2. the hickory-steel innovation

as to importance for subsequent billions to enjoy the game.

If one would remove carts from the equation, it tells me instantly they only give a shit about themselves and their opinions

As a leftist prick, I don't give too much thought to the aspects of industry and capitalism that they may or may not have bolstered, but I suspect--as other's say here--that it has been good for those who do concern themselves with that.

As a leftist prick who cares about a carts' impact on the health of a course, I think agreeable policies can be established governing their use.

I like carts; I like cart paths; I like driving a cart. I like that the infirm, old or disabled persons can play golf with them. I like throwing my smokes and wallet and a handful of tees into the cubby; I like carts with a lot of cup holders to hold many beverages. I like Dusty League guys at the local muni 9-holer pulling beers from the 30 pack in the basket, like arrows from a quiver. I like sitting in a cart and marking down the score on the hub of the wheel.  I like taking refuge in the shade of a cart with a roof. I like bullshitting with my partner under its shelter while we wait for the rain to subside. I like when we're out there alone and decide to go back and play the hole again. I like watching fools who drive their cart poorly, pushing their cart out of the mud or taking a hill so fast that they have a near-death experience doing a '720' near the bottom.

I like carts - its one of the few things that is just as grand and glorious as when it was first invented--perhaps, even better.

cheers

vk

V, I would love to play a few rounds one of these days.   Great post!

[jim_lewis]

If the cart had not been invented, I would invent it. Some days driving the cart is the only fun I have!  There are many mountain courses that would never have been built absent carts. BTW most of the guys at my club ride, but I can't remember the last time I saw someone drinking a beer on the course.

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