[BCowan]

Joe Hancock made a great post and I would like to delve further into it.

''In all fairness, not all native grass situations are as unplayable as you are blanket stating. There's a lot of factors:

Soils
Irrigation/ rainfall
Native plant species/ varieties
Seeding rates(often the most overlooked/ erred of all)
Fertility
Diligence in maintenance

Some places do native very well, apart from the wettest of seasons. Crystal Downs comes to mind.''

   Examples of great maintained Natives/Fescue in more clay soils?  Maint practices?  Other than controlled burn?  Seeding rates is the most overlooked IMO.  The reason this needs to be discussed is that Native/fescue can get a bad reputation if not maintained and or planted properly.  Sandier soils are going to be easier to maint., but examples of Clay Soil courses with great Native/fescue would be great.

[Jason Topp]

At Windsong we have a 5 year program to convert our native areas taking place.  It is very expensive and is supposed to look terrible for two years but terrific thereafter.  The program started last year.

The company's description of the process is described on this web page - you need to scroll down.

 - http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs115/1101992522056/archive/1112822746805.html

[Joel_Stewart]

A course I play a fair amount last year tried to plant fescue on a large hill but it failed.  I'm not sure what the supers reason is but to me it looks like the soil was too rocky.

It grew for a while, maybe 7 inches but then died.  I'm not sure how much water it needs, but it seems it was fine until they cut back the water?

It's not as easy as one thinks. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

We have had some trouble eat Four Streams growing fescue.  Our super kills all the grass and plants the fescue.  After a few months old native grasses grow back and become think and unruly.  Not sure what the problem is but it is impossible to play out of and much of the time hitting into it is a lost ball.

[BCowan]

Tommy and Joel

   I am trying to find examples of easy to play out of native/fescue/wispy grass and successfully maintained especially in clay soils.  Besides controlled burn, i want to know if any keepers are doing any physical means of thinning it out on a monthly basis or so?

[Ryan Swilling]

Tommy and Joel

   I am trying to find examples of easy to play out of native/fescue/wispy grass and successfully maintained especially in clay soils.  Besides controlled burn, i want to know if any keepers are doing any physical means of thinning it out on a monthly basis or so?

I found this when researching broomsedge for our course a few months ago. It is about The Standard Club in Duluth, GA. Some good information there.
http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/1990s/1995/950509.pdf

I cant get the other link to work from the GCSAA.

[Ian Andrew]

I am trying to find examples of easy to play out of native/fescue/wispy grass and successfully maintained especially in clay soils.  Besides controlled burn, i want to know if any keepers are doing any physical means of thinning it out on a monthly basis or so?

Since I live and work in clay soils .... I honestly believe there's no such thing "over the long term"

It's just the wrong soil. There's too much fertility. The plant materials you choose thrive to a point of congestion and other invasive species have an easy time establishing themselves and contributing to the overall density. It takes more maintenance than just cutting and keeping rough if you want the ball to be found and played. The initial plantings are often OK, "if sprayed and thinned", but nature looks to change a monoculture as quick as it can.

[BCowan]

Tommy and Joel

   I am trying to find examples of easy to play out of native/fescue/wispy grass and successfully maintained especially in clay soils.  Besides controlled burn, i want to know if any keepers are doing any physical means of thinning it out on a monthly basis or so?

I found this when researching broomsedge for our course a few months ago. It is about The Standard Club in Duluth, GA. Some good information there.
http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/1990s/1995/950509.pdf

I cant get the other link to work from the GCSAA.

Thanks for that link.  I took a quick glance over it, I'll read it tomrw for sure. 

[Jason Thurman]

Erin Hills has worked hard to manage theirs. They had severe invasive grass problems in the early years, but they've fastidiously eradicated those unwanted species.

The native areas were nice when I made my visits there a few years ago. From Ran's review, it sounds like they've put large amounts of sand down on the course over the years which will obviously help thin things out. I'm not sure what their soil underneath is like.

Short of something that drastic though, I agree with Ian. In my experience, clay courses and "native areas" don't really go together, at least if you think playability from those areas is important.

[BHoover]

Erin Hills has worked hard to manage theirs. They had severe invasive grass problems in the early years, but they've fastidiously eradicated those unwanted species.

The native areas were nice when I made my visits there a few years ago. From Ran's review, it sounds like they've put large amounts of sand down on the course over the years which will obviously help thin things out. I'm not sure what their soil underneath is like.

Short of something that drastic though, I agree with Ian. In my experience, clay courses and "native areas" don't really go together, at least if you think playability from those areas is important.

Just don't hit it into the tall grass. Simple.

In all seriousness, is it crucial that native areas be thinned out and easily playable? Sure it may be nice to be able to play. Shot from wiry fescue at times, but I wouldn't expect to always be able to play a shot from the tall grass. Sometimes being forced to wedge out is reasonable to expect if I hit it miles off line.

[BCowan]

''From Ran's review, it sounds like they've put large amounts of sand down on the course over the years which will obviously help thin things out''

   Someone mentioned that tonight at our gathering, makes sense. 

I have dethatched a lawn with a walk behind power rake 2.5ft wide.  I wonder if a tractor with a tow behind ''power rake'' would help thin out those areas?  Probably not much demand to build them. 

[BCowan]

''In all seriousness, is it crucial that native areas be thinned out and easily playable? Sure it may be nice to be able to play. Shot from wiry fescue at times, but I wouldn't expect to always be able to play a shot from the tall grass. Sometimes being forced to wedge out is reasonable to expect if I hit it miles off line.''

    I am all about punishing a very bad shot.  I just don't think avg golfers losing 5 balls a round is going to help promote the idea of more native/fescue/wispy grasses.  I think that places will avoid it and give up on it too soon

[Grant Saunders]

To me, the whole advantage/selling point of native areas is the fact they should be cheaper and easier to maintain. If they are having to be constantly thinned and have grasses removed, there possibly reaches a point where it actually costs more than simply mowing them. Certain soils will dictate that for periods, they will be an unruly jungle of growth irrespective of how they are managed.

Its an approach that works on links courses with their low fertility soils but you cant expect to replicate that in all different locations. Much like fast and firm conditions that occur naturally on some courses, its is unreasonable to believe that all courses can be maintained to produce the same characteristics.

[Stephen Pellegrino]

I know of several courses here in the northeast that use a flail mower in the Spring and/or Fall to thin out the turf stand in native grass areas.  The flail mower is (typically) attached to a tractor, and the unit itself looks like a bunch of chain links attached to a rotary reel.  It is often used to cut the grass/brush on the sides of highways.

For native grass areas on a golf course, if you set the "cutting" hight low enough, the unit essentially acts like a verti-cut, ripping out some amount of the grass/roots.  It thins out the turf stand and, when the grasses grow back in the spring, the result is less grass per square foot.  One key is to do this process early in the spring, before the seed heads have sprouted in the new grass.

-Stephen

[Keith OHalloran]

I am not sure how they do it, but Atlantic on Long Island does an amazing job with their native. It adds to the aesthetics, and is very playable. Bob Ranum does a great job out there.

[Jason Thurman]

In all seriousness, is it crucial that native areas be thinned out and easily playable? Sure it may be nice to be able to play. Shot from wiry fescue at times, but I wouldn't expect to always be able to play a shot from the tall grass. Sometimes being forced to wedge out is reasonable to expect if I hit it miles off line.

I totally agree with you. When I talk about playability in this context, I'm really only talking about the ability to find your ball most of the time. Sadly, most native areas on courses near my home are virtually impenetrable to even walk into, let alone search for a ball.

[Steve Okula]

I'm working in clay topsoil. There is a Round-Up resistant species of sheep's fescue (Festuca ovina) called "Arurora Gold". Once established, this fescue will tolerate, to a certain extent, light doses of Round-Up (glyphosate) that will eliminate pretty much everything else. It's resistant, but a full rate will burn it good, so you need to be careful and apply 1/4 to 1/2 rates and repeat application a few weeks apart. And don't try anything until the fescue is mature.

The Aurora Gold will grow thick in fertile soils, and will still swallow balls, but you can achieve a more uniform, lower growing cover that gives the golfer more of a chance and is an improvement over a general mix of species.

[Josh Tarble]

This is something that probably only affects me and is kind of silly, but the other thing I think about and notice is poison ivy and similar  I'm prone to pretty bad reactions, so a lot of times I notice poison ivy and don't even think about venturing into a native area, regardless of playability.

I also am of the opinion that these natural areas should be pretty far out of play, so if you're in them you deserve what you get.  If they are close enough to play that people are frequently getting in them...just mow it.  Even if it's once or twice a week.

[Sean_A]

To me, the whole advantage/selling point of native areas is the fact they should be cheaper and easier to maintain. If they are having to be constantly thinned and have grasses removed, there possibly reaches a point where it actually costs more than simply mowing them. Certain soils will dictate that for periods, they will be an unruly jungle of growth irrespective of how they are managed.

Its an approach that works on links courses with their low fertility soils but you cant expect to replicate that in all different locations. Much like fast and firm conditions that occur naturally on some courses, its is unreasonable to believe that all courses can be maintained to produce the same characteristics.

I don't think added colour texture should be ignored.  The example of HH is a good example of texture providing a far more attractive view than cheap looking trees much of the same colour (one of my biggest beefs with trees flowing down fairways).  Even so, unless there is a guarantee that the native will be kept whispy, it should serve as background colour if it isn't expensive to maintain.  I seriously soubt any such guarantee can be provided.  Even a huge percentage of links struggle with keeping their fescues thinned.  I think over the years, watering and feed meant for fairways have impacted the "native" too such a  degree that at many places it would probably be best to bale the stuff, kill the unwanted growth and start over. 

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

I am not sure how they do it, but Atlantic on Long Island does an amazing job with their native. It adds to the aesthetics, and is very playable. Bob Ranum does a great job out there.

Keith,
I can't tell you how much work,money, and effort went into that.
and still does.
few have the budget for that, to say nothing of the dangers of tickborne illnesses

 "maintaining" "native" areas seems like an oxymoron to me, with the emphasis on the last 5 letters

Mowers make great herbicides,though don't photograph as well

[Keith OHalloran]

Jeff,
I have no doubt that it is expensive. I also have no doubt that the club gets the quality they pay for. I am all for the idea that if you are willing to pay for it, and can afford it, go ahead.

[BHoover]

I also am of the opinion that these natural areas should be pretty far out of play, so if you're in them you deserve what you get.  If they are close enough to play that people are frequently getting in them...just mow it.  Even if it's once or twice a week.

I agree that native areas generally ought to be far enough away from fairways and greens that they are effectively out of play absent a truly terrible shot. If you have tall grass close to the playing area, then it should be thinned out and whispy enough that the golfer has a chance to play out of it (and of course find his/her ball). But for areas that aren't ordinarily in play, why bother spending time and money maintaining them--as natural areas, they should be left natural.

[BCowan]

Recap

''From Ran's review, it sounds like they've put large amounts of sand down on the course over the years which will obviously help thin things out. I'm not sure what their soil underneath is like.''

''I know of several courses here in the northeast that use a flail mower in the Spring and/or Fall to thin out the turf stand in native grass areas.  The flail mower is (typically) attached to a tractor, and the unit itself looks like a bunch of chain links attached to a rotary reel.  It is often used to cut the grass/brush on the sides of highways.

For native grass areas on a golf course, if you set the "cutting" hight low enough, the unit essentially acts like a verti-cut, ripping out some amount of the grass/roots.  It thins out the turf stand and, when the grasses grow back in the spring, the result is less grass per square foot.  One key is to do this process early in the spring, before the seed heads have sprouted in the new grass.''

''I'm working in clay topsoil. There is a Round-Up resistant species of sheep's fescue (Festuca ovina) called "Arurora Gold". Once established, this fescue will tolerate, to a certain extent, light doses of Round-Up (glyphosate) that will eliminate pretty much everything else. It's resistant, but a full rate will burn it good, so you need to be careful and apply 1/4 to 1/2 rates and repeat application a few weeks apart. And don't try anything until the fescue is mature. ''

http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/1990s/1995/950509.pdf

 - http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs115/1101992522056/archive/1112822746805.html

[Tom_Doak]

It is almost impossible to grow fine fescue roughs in heavier soils without having them get too thick.  You really shouldn't try that look.

But it has been done.  My sometimes-consultant Tom Mead knows as much about it as anyone, but I won't give away all his secrets here.  All I will say is it involves treating the soil differently than you would normally do, and using entirely different seeding rates from what they suggest on the bag.

[Jon Wiggett]

It is almost impossible to grow fine fescue roughs in heavier soils without having them get too thick.  You really shouldn't try that look.

But it has been done.  My sometimes-consultant Tom Mead knows as much about it as anyone, but I won't give away all his secrets here.  All I will say is it involves treating the soil differently than you would normally do, and using entirely different seeding rates from what they suggest on the bag.

I agree with Tom. The best way is to strip the topsoil back taking the richer darker layer and then rotavate and seed at a low rate. you might get problems with soil erosion though so have to be careful.

Jon

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