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Chris Cupit

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Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2014, 05:50:35 PM »
I realize that pictures do not always tell the entire story and sometimes we see what we want to but I really prefer the "after" pictures of HH.  I played there in college in the 80's and remember lots of thin weak areas of turf.  Plus I was most likely in the wooded areas anyway after my tee shots so that may also be why I remember it that way.

But to me the wooded pics show a lot of weak, stressed and thin tuf.  The after photos seem to show a much healthier grass and on several pictures the tall grasses seem to draw my eye away from the cart paths which is a nice bonus. 

I agree that lost balls inside the park are no fun but playing off roots and dirt underneath trees isn't a bowl of cherries either.  Lasltly thought was that it seemed like the trees that were eradicated were pretty ugly pines for the most part though I could certainly be wrong :)

The picture looking back down 18 fairway (I think) is a huge inprovement and the tall grasses don't seem intrusive at all.

I do agree that if the tall grasses are lush, it is pretty pointless to go search.  As annoying as that is, give me tall grass inside the park to OB stakes lining holes any day of the week!

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2014, 05:58:57 PM »
Chris,

I agree, the fairways at Holston are 40-50+ throughout the entire course, when you figure in a rough buffer of 12-15 paces on either side, you have to really hit one off the map to get in the FEW native areas that Donald Ross would hate ;D.  I have not played your course, but have looked at the photo tour many times.  I love the (un)natural you have added in spots as well.
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Joe Sponcia

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Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2014, 06:02:54 PM »
More horrific  ;D pictures of Holston:





Looking back from #18 over #10 and beyond




Holston Hills (Ross), #15
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 06:06:35 PM by Joe Sponcia »
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2014, 06:11:54 PM »




Holston Hills (Ross), #14







Holston Hills (Ross), #3 Tee
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2014, 06:23:38 PM »
Didn't read through the thread to see if its been posted, but Flossmoor CC has a set of before and after photos for each hole.

Start with 1 and work your way through:

http://www.flossmoorcc.org/renovation/hole_01.html
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2014, 06:24:22 PM »




Holston Hills (Ross), #3 approach





#6 (My favorite hole)








#18 Approach

Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

BCowan

Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2014, 06:25:50 PM »
I don't like most of the after shots. I'd rather see a few trees rather than fairways and greens lined with knee deep rough.

However native the grasses are, they offer no real chance of 'recovery'. Just slow play and a wedge out if you're lucky or unlucky enough to find it.

In all fairness, not all native grass situations are as unplayable as you are blanket stating. There's a lot of factors:

Soils
Irrigation/ rainfall
Native plant species/ varieties
Seeding rates(often the most overlooked/ erred of all)
Fertility
Diligence in maintenance

Some places do native very well, apart from the wettest of seasons. Crystal Downs comes to mind.

Joe

Great post, agree completely and well said.  Great photos Joe, the changes look much better!

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2014, 06:30:39 PM »
18th hole at Essex County CC (NJ)





Alex Lagowitz

Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2014, 06:35:53 PM »
Another view:

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2014, 06:36:28 PM »
18th hole at Essex County CC (NJ)






The After shot looks like HH Before.

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2014, 06:38:07 PM »
Get your Pepto...last one





Holston Hills (Ross), #11

« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 06:40:23 PM by Joe Sponcia »
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2014, 06:38:58 PM »
18th hole at Essex County CC (NJ)



The After shot looks like HH Before.

Its a work in progress.  Ideally I would want to see it look like Holston Hills, but thats just not going to happen right now.  The amount of tree removal has been tremendous, and hopefully will continue.  I wish I had a picture of the 17th hole before and after, that was probably the most dramatic change.

BCowan

Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2014, 06:41:40 PM »
Joe

    What do they do to maintain or thin out the Native at HH?  I really want to start a thread about varies options.  Burn out being one of them.  Was wondering if a tractor pulling wide dethatcher would help thin it out?

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2014, 06:47:09 PM »
18th hole at Essex County CC (NJ)



The After shot looks like HH Before.

Its a work in progress.  Ideally I would want to see it look like Holston Hills, but thats just not going to happen right now.  The amount of tree removal has been tremendous, and hopefully will continue.  I wish I had a picture of the 17th hole before and after, that was probably the most dramatic change.

It was meant as a compliment Alex. Best example in this thread by far in my opinion.

Greg Chambers

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Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2014, 07:54:19 PM »
Joel,

Although I don't have pictures to post...the before and after at Palos Verdes is dramatic.  They opened up some great views of the Pacific.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2014, 05:36:54 AM »
I think the tree huggers have a point, HH doesn't seem to be the course one wants to use for evidence of tree removal.  That said, I do think the course looks better with trees cleared and native introduced.  A few do show some vistas which aren't brilliant, but are better than framed shoddy tree growth.  I think the bigger issue for me with all the peripheral trees is the wide recovery shots become too similar.  No matter what the hazard or feature, it shouldn't be used to the point where the course can be accused of lacking in recovery variety because recoveries are such an important part of the handicap golfers' exeprience. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2014, 06:41:21 AM »
Introducing more light into shady/enclosed areas and permitting more air/wind circulation are sometimes given as reasons for tree removal.

At those courses where considerable tree removal has been undertaken has the quality of the playing surfaces improved since the tree removal took place?

atb

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2014, 10:33:28 AM »
Get your Pepto...last one





Holston Hills (Ross), #11



This is one that shocked me in terms of the perceived need for tree removal.  The before shot seemed to be fairly open, with the remaining trees well off the intended lines.  The before picture didn't have the feel of "tree-lined, Vertical Bowling" that often would get me screaming for a tree removal program.

The after picture here is much more "sphincter-puckering" to me.  You may see an open vista, but all I see are two-stroke, lost ball penalties from the native grass.  Given the option of
a) reloading after a pull, vs.
b) trying some miracle recovery from the left trees (even if on wispy grass or bare ground),

I'd take option b) six days a week and twice on Sunday.


Joe & I have debated Holston Hills a few times before:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57272.msg1335453.html#msg1335453

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57268.msg1335167.html#msg1335167


For me, I think there just needs to be a balance between the extremes of "demanding, tree-lined corridors" and "trees are bad."  As Sean said, variety is often a casualty when we tip toward either extreme.

My main concern with widespread tree removal is whether the greens are interesting enough to reward / punish approaches from different angles.  As a Ross design, I would imagine that Holston Hills' greens would meet that requirement.  But on a course with fairly benign greens, overzealous tree removal will simply make a boring set of greens even worse.

But even in those cases, I'm all for 'tree-thinning," since I often see clusters of 6-7 redundant trees in cases where 1 can probably achieve the same strategic intent.
 

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2014, 10:48:45 AM »
An account on Twitter called @OakmontHooks run by a gentleman named Curt Coulter frequently posts before and after pics at Oakmont.

https://twitter.com/OakmontHooks

Most of his pics are currently of wintertime photos but he may be willing to share some of his shots with you.

BCowan

Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2014, 11:01:52 AM »
Kevin

    I don't think that HH went to extreme going by photos.  Extreme would be Oakmont.  The greens are going to more healthy, the keeper can keep them firmer (if clubs is okay with it).  Firm greens are the courses defense and it also encourages player to think.  Now the fescue looks way too think just going by photos.  I think that you can't rule out native, just because it wasn't possibly seeded at lower rate, and or maint sporadically to thin it out.  I hate nothing more than losing balls and or reloading.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2014, 11:20:53 AM »
I really wish I had old "before" photos... so I'll have to use aerials. But this is the Redan, Hole #12 at Hackensack. 1987. There was such a "chute" that as a left-to-right player I had no chance of going for a left pin position!
 

1997
Most of the trees removed on the left side. Sadly, a 1995 bunker renovation led to changes to the front-side bunker which was replaced by two bunkers. (Yeah, I know... We will get to it!)


Current view, trees removed from both sides of the hole


« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 11:33:07 AM by Bill Brightly »

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2014, 12:01:45 PM »
Get your Pepto...last one





Holston Hills (Ross), #11



This is one that shocked me in terms of the perceived need for tree removal.  The before shot seemed to be fairly open, with the remaining trees well off the intended lines.  The before picture didn't have the feel of "tree-lined, Vertical Bowling" that often would get me screaming for a tree removal program.

The after picture here is much more "sphincter-puckering" to me.  You may see an open vista, but all I see are two-stroke, lost ball penalties from the native grass.  Given the option of
a) reloading after a pull, vs.
b) trying some miracle recovery from the left trees (even if on wispy grass or bare ground),

I'd take option b) six days a week and twice on Sunday.


Joe & I have debated Holston Hills a few times before:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57272.msg1335453.html#msg1335453

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57268.msg1335167.html#msg1335167


For me, I think there just needs to be a balance between the extremes of "demanding, tree-lined corridors" and "trees are bad."  As Sean said, variety is often a casualty when we tip toward either extreme.

My main concern with widespread tree removal is whether the greens are interesting enough to reward / punish approaches from different angles.  As a Ross design, I would imagine that Holston Hills' greens would meet that requirement.  But on a course with fairly benign greens, overzealous tree removal will simply make a boring set of greens even worse.

But even in those cases, I'm all for 'tree-thinning," since I often see clusters of 6-7 redundant trees in cases where 1 can probably achieve the same strategic intent.
 

Kevin,

#11 is a par 3 (to put things into context).  From the back tee, it is usually a 5 iron...and I am not long at all.  From the 'handicap' tees, you are probably looking at no more than a 7 iron.  The awful and misplaced ;D natural area to the left is a good 50 yards off the center line(?!)...again a 7 iron for many.  The high stuff on the right is definitely in play if you tend to shank shots but otherwise if you are under a 28 handicap, I have never seen a human hit into it. 

Holston is 1000% improved both in turf quality, playability and fun...but I play there often and prefer the 'cleaner' look.  To your last statement I wholeheartedly agree...one tree gets the point across better than a cluster.  I don't know about the 'strategic' merit of trees if they are on the perimeter (as they should be)?  I guess I am in the minority when playing de-forested courses as I rarely plant trees in my mind while playing, imagining how much fun it would be to hit under branches after missing the fairway by 60 yards? 

I am for very wide fairways (50+), exacting greens, and think in terms of the 90% that can't break 90 when looking at a course...but at the same time have a hard time finding high grass at 55-60 yards off center to be as terrible as has been portrayed.  If not high grass, I get that several would want trees in place of just wide open space/light rough so shots are 'interesting', but if I am missing fairways by 50-60 yards...I don't know how much 'strategy' is really involved or fun recovery shots are?  My wife is a legit 40 so I do see the other side, but she has never commented on how fun hitting off of tree roots or dry ground really is either.   
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2014, 12:09:44 PM »
In my opinion, Holston Hills looks far, far, better in the "after" photos.

The trees there in the "before" photos appear to me as "junk" trees with low canopies and were somewhat unattractive. It's not like the fairways were lined with nice big elm trees.
H.P.S.

JLahrman

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Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2014, 01:01:52 PM »
I definitely disagree with the opinions that the tree removal at Holston is not an improvement.  I don't think the before pictures show a course as badly choked by trees as some, but those trees definitely walled off the holes and hemmed in the playing corridors. Count me as one who prefers the after photos.

Reminds me of the photos I've seen of post-tree removal Moraine in Dayton.

Brian just curious, do you have a link to any of those pictures? I played Moraine most recently in 2008, and at the time I believe they had cleared out a lot of the trees, but a lot of the course was reseeded and under straw where the trees had been removed, and those areas were marked as ground under repair. I'd love to see the finished product.

Eric Smith

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Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2014, 01:17:57 PM »
I last played at Holston in 2011 so haven't seen the most recent changes. I did find this photo I took from behind 18 and remember sending it to Ran because I was so proud of the work that had been done in 'opening up' the golf course. I just love the place and count Ryan (Blair) as a friend as well as an extremely capable superintendent.

Question for you, Joe S. [or Ryan, if you're reading this], are the mowing lines pretty much the same today as depicted in my picture? If so, I think maybe the aesthetic could be improved dramatically by breaking the area up into smaller islands and making the fescue a bit less linear in its definition. Just my .02.


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