[Tony Ristola]

Had to laugh as they went through all the commentary, and at the end Adam Scott said (paraphrasing) I could hit 500 6-irons into that green all day long.

Reminds me of what Pete Dye stated in his book about Scott Verplank claiming some par-5 at oak tree was great because if he striped a drive he could get home with a 5-iron.

[Thomas Dai]

If you're second shot to the green on any hole is a 6-iron or a 5-iron then the hole's not a par-5, it's a par-4! Bit like say 10-hcp Men playing from the Ladies/red/front tees and mouthing off in the bar afterwards about how they broke par and how good they must be. Only conning themselves.

It's about time folk got real as to what 'par' really is for these Tour-Pro guys. But then again, 'birdies' and 'eagles' maybe makes better TV/media talk than 'par's' and 'bogies'.

Rant over.

atb

[Mike Hendren]

Had to laugh as they went through all the commentary, and at the end Adam Scott said (paraphrasing) I could hit 500 6-irons into that green all day long.

I'll be watching to see if he goes 3,3,4,4 during the invitational.

Bogey

[Sean_A]

If you're second shot to the green on any hole is a 6-iron or a 5-iron then the hole's not a par-5, it's a par-4! Bit like say 10-hcp Men playing from the Ladies/red/front tees and mouthing off in the bar afterwards about how they broke par and how good they must be. Only conning themselves.

It's about time folk got real as to what 'par' really is for these Tour-Pro guys. But then again, 'birdies' and 'eagles' maybe makes better TV/media talk than 'par's' and 'bogies'.

Rant over.

atb

atb

In truth it doesn't matter - lowest score wins.  However, if pros really did a proper par (most should be about 68) for the courses they play then maybe it would squash the idea of lengthening holes.

Ciao

[Alex Miller]

If you're second shot to the green on any hole is a 6-iron or a 5-iron then the hole's not a par-5, it's a par-4! Bit like say 10-hcp Men playing from the Ladies/red/front tees and mouthing off in the bar afterwards about how they broke par and how good they must be. Only conning themselves.

It's about time folk got real as to what 'par' really is for these Tour-Pro guys. But then again, 'birdies' and 'eagles' maybe makes better TV/media talk than 'par's' and 'bogies'.

Rant over.

atb

Counterpoints:

A. Adam Scott is a very long hitter, even amongst his peers. Length is a skill and while he may be able to get home with 5 or 6 iron (as can a few other players), most Tour players cannot.

B. The green is really well defended and missing it is quite penal. I think the expectation that a scratch player should make par is accurate. Of course that scratch player can make 3 or 7 too! The approach club is not the end-all be-all in determing par because there are many ways to defend a hole.

In the end of course, it doesn't matter anyway, as I see Sean has written.

[Keith Grande]

Adam Scott hit an iron into 13 on Sunday last year...into Rae's Creek.  Lucklily he was able to play his ball wihout penalty.

[Sean_A]

If you're second shot to the green on any hole is a 6-iron or a 5-iron then the hole's not a par-5, it's a par-4! Bit like say 10-hcp Men playing from the Ladies/red/front tees and mouthing off in the bar afterwards about how they broke par and how good they must be. Only conning themselves.

It's about time folk got real as to what 'par' really is for these Tour-Pro guys. But then again, 'birdies' and 'eagles' maybe makes better TV/media talk than 'par's' and 'bogies'.

Rant over.

atb

Counterpoints:

A. Adam Scott is a very long hitter, even amongst his peers. Length is a skill and while he may be able to get home with 5 or 6 iron (as can a few other players), most Tour players cannot.

B. The green is really well defended and missing it is quite penal. I think the expectation that a scratch player should make par is accurate. Of course that scratch player can make 3 or 7 too! The approach club is not the end-all be-all in determing par because there are many ways to defend a hole.

In the end of course, it doesn't matter anyway, as I see Sean has written.

Alex

I face plenty of 4s I can't reach in two so I don't think the argument holds up well for pros.  My only thought was really about finding a harmless way to stop courses being lengthened.  I have long advocated a bifurcated par system between experts and hacks (harking back to when bogey score and par co-existed quite amiably).  Par is left over from the days when par was an expert score.  That is rarely the case these days and so many holes should be reviewed as to what the par really is.  I stands to reason when most pros are well below scratch players. 

Ciao

[Keith Grande]

I don't think Bobby Jones would have a problem with the 13th hole as it plays today.  He thought a par 5 should be reachable for the superior player, and for the pros that means an iron vs a wood for some of the shorter hitters.  It's also a demanding tee shot as it simply cannot be blasted down the middle.  Many drives wind up in the pine straw, and even fairway shots have a hanging lie.

[Thomas Dai]

If on every 'par-5', irrespective of lie and stance, my 2nd shot was with a 5-iron, or 6-iron etc, in fact even with fairway metal or hybrid, my handicap (and possibly my ego and vanity) would be delighted! My scores wouldn't be any different though.

As to length being a skill, only in part is this the case, it's also the physique that the individual was given from birth, and whilst physique may be able to be improved through exercise, diet etc etc, it is essentially not under the individuals control.

I also reckon there is merit in Sean's point about maybe squashing the idea of lengthening holes because 'Par' is no longer the experts anticipated score on a hole, and that, once-upon-a-time, was what 'Par' was supposed to be.

atb

[Patrick_Mucci]

Modern equipment has made it easier......... and harder.

Easier in that increased distance can be enormously beneficial, such as when they started hitting 3-woods over the corner with 8-irons into the green.

The increased length, vis a vis the purchase from Augusta CC has defeated that strategy.

Modern equipment also makes it harder to shape the shot to conform to the playing corridor and fairway.
It's all to easy to hit straight ahead, into the pines..

The shame isn't that the green can be hit in two, it's that it can be hit in two with such a short club.

The real challenge lies in the trajectory of the incoming approach.

Low shots that cleared the creek would not hold the green.
Coming in with 5, 6 or 8 irons removes the architectural features as a defense.

Today, I think # 13 is a wonderful hole for amateurs.

As a three shot hole, it's very difficult.

The lie in the DZ is very, very awkward and if you lay up, the approaching 3rd shot is incredibly dicey.

If you go for the green from 230, you're hitting off of a hook lie, but, you need to hit a high fade.

And, if you've layed up, you're hitting off of a downhill/sidehill lie, over a creek to a difficult plateaued target.
Should you go long or left, you really have your work cut out for you on the recovery.

It's a wonderful hole.

[Tony Ristola]

I remember Sandy Lyle hitting 7-iron into 13; either the year he won or when he was paired with Nicklaus in the final round in 86; think it was 1988... and back then thought Holy Moly... as guys were usually looking at long irons or fairway woods, and then getting stick for either going for it or like Chip Beck... laying up.

I wonder how many guys will lay-up as Ben Crenshaw had... didn't he lay up every time when he won his first Masters?

Now guys look at it like it's a 6-iron, and "great". LOL...

[Phil McDade]

The 13th has a very level lie off the fairway -- if you are willing to challenge the creek left. Jack of course knew this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w81j8dXzHQI

(That's Venturi, just as the clip is beginning, saying that Nicklaus has a level lie, "one of the few you find on this fairway." Challenging the creek left off the tee also opens up the green, as it is angled for receiving an approach to come in from the left side of the fairway. Any guess what iron Jack is using in this clip? I'd say 4 or 5 iron.)

Update --  This story says it was a 3-iron: http://espn.go.com/golf/blog/_/name/masters_moments/id/6286027/rekindling-jack-glory

[Patrick_Mucci]

The 13th has a very level lie off the fairway -- if you are willing to challenge the creek left. Jack of course knew this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w81j8dXzHQI

(That's Venturi, just as the clip is beginning, saying that Nicklaus has a level lie, "one of the few you find on this fairway." Challenging the creek left off the tee also opens up the green, as it is angled for receiving an approach to come in from the left side of the fairway. Any guess what iron Jack is using in this clip? I'd say 4 or 5 iron.)

Driving the ball that close to the creek is next to impossible and very, very risky.

I wonder if that clip isn't during a practice round as there doesn't seem to be any gallery sounds

Jack was also a "fader" of the ball, hence getting to that position had to be a challenge for him.
I wonder if he didn't hit his ball in the creek and take a drop, resulting in the shot in the video

[Phil McDade]

The 13th has a very level lie off the fairway -- if you are willing to challenge the creek left. Jack of course knew this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w81j8dXzHQI

(That's Venturi, just as the clip is beginning, saying that Nicklaus has a level lie, "one of the few you find on this fairway." Challenging the creek left off the tee also opens up the green, as it is angled for receiving an approach to come in from the left side of the fairway. Any guess what iron Jack is using in this clip? I'd say 4 or 5 iron.)

Driving the ball that close to the creek is next to impossible and very, very risky.

I wonder if that clip isn't during a practice round as there doesn't seem to be any gallery sounds

Jack was also a "fader" of the ball, hence getting to that position had to be a challenge for him.
I wonder if he didn't hit his ball in the creek and take a drop, resulting in the shot in the video

Patrick:

That's from Jack's final round at the 1986 Masters; his approach was on the green and he two-putted for birdie.

Jack's drive toward the creek was intentional; recall that he was just coming off a bogey at 12, and he knew he was running out of holes and needed to go low on both remaining par 5s to have a chance.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The 13th has a very level lie off the fairway -- if you are willing to challenge the creek left. Jack of course knew this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w81j8dXzHQI

(That's Venturi, just as the clip is beginning, saying that Nicklaus has a level lie, "one of the few you find on this fairway." Challenging the creek left off the tee also opens up the green, as it is angled for receiving an approach to come in from the left side of the fairway. Any guess what iron Jack is using in this clip? I'd say 4 or 5 iron.)

Driving the ball that close to the creek is next to impossible and very, very risky.

I wonder if that clip isn't during a practice round as there doesn't seem to be any gallery sounds

Jack was also a "fader" of the ball, hence getting to that position had to be a challenge for him.
I wonder if he didn't hit his ball in the creek and take a drop, resulting in the shot in the video

Patrick:

That's from Jack's final round at the 1986 Masters; his approach was on the green and he two-putted for birdie.

Jack's drive toward the creek was intentional; recall that he was just coming off a bogey at 12, and he knew he was running out of holes and needed to go low on both remaining par 5s to have a chance.

Phil,

If you're correct in that he hit a 4-iron and we ascribe 200 yards to his 4-iron, then, he was barely past the corner, which isn't a Nicklausian like drive.
If it was a 5-iron and we ascribe 190 yards to his 5-iron, then he was about 10 yards past the corner, still not a Nicklausian like drive.

With Jack's length, my guess is that his ball got there by accident rather than design.
He didn't have that much to gain by driving it so close to the creek, and....... everything to lose.

Is the 1986 video available ?
I'd love to be able to see from where he teed off, whether he hit driver, 3-wood or an iron, and the flight of his ball.

[Jason Thurman]

Nicklaus favored a draw at Augusta after 1963, when a case of hip bursitis altered his swing and he won while also realizing he could change his ballflight when needed. He details this in Chapter 3 of Golf My Way, titled "Why I Always Played the Fade- and Now Sometimes Play the Draw." He always felt Augusta favored a right-to-left shape, and focused on achieving one for the 2-3 weeks prior to the tournament every year.

[Phil McDade]

This book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?index=books&linkCode=qs&keywords=9780762787814

and this link: http://books.google.com/books?id=BxVKAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=nicklaus+13th+hole+augusta+1986&source=bl&ots=fG16ZBUQM3&sig=eVH4YWPnz5DgCKEXwli87k7P4g4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pt9GU7W9K8Oo2AWlvYC4Dw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=nicklaus%2013th%20hole%20augusta%201986&f=false

say Jack hit 3-wood off the tee at 13 in the final round, followed by a 3-iron. This suggests to me -- along with interviews w/ Jack afterwards saying he needed to get aggressive following his bogey on 12 -- that he was trying to work the ball off the tee right-to-left. The further left you go there on 13 toward the creek, the more the fairway flattens out.

[Tony Ristola]

The 13th has a very level lie off the fairway -- if you are willing to challenge the creek left. Jack of course knew this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w81j8dXzHQI

(That's Venturi, just as the clip is beginning, saying that Nicklaus has a level lie, "one of the few you find on this fairway." Challenging the creek left off the tee also opens up the green, as it is angled for receiving an approach to come in from the left side of the fairway. Any guess what iron Jack is using in this clip? I'd say 4 or 5 iron.)

Driving the ball that close to the creek is next to impossible and very, very risky.

I wonder if that clip isn't during a practice round as there doesn't seem to be any gallery sounds

Jack was also a "fader" of the ball, hence getting to that position had to be a challenge for him.
I wonder if he didn't hit his ball in the creek and take a drop, resulting in the shot in the video

Patrick:

That's from Jack's final round at the 1986 Masters; his approach was on the green and he two-putted for birdie.

Jack's drive toward the creek was intentional; recall that he was just coming off a bogey at 12, and he knew he was running out of holes and needed to go low on both remaining par 5s to have a chance.

Remember the pivotal shot on that hole when Nicklaus won?

It was Seve dunking a skunky hook 4-iron in the water. Seve was considered one of the longer boys of the day and was running on all cylinders up to that point. On second thought, I think that was 15 as the ball splashed.

[Phil McDade]

Tony:

15 -- some have translated his comments as the ball takes flight, which amount to "oh crap!"

[Jon Wiggett]

If you're second shot to the green on any hole is a 6-iron or a 5-iron then the hole's not a par-5, it's a par-4!


atb

And yet Scott took exactly five to get the ball in the hole so maybe the par is not so wrong. I bet you Mr. Duffner does not think it should be a par four   

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

This book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?index=books&linkCode=qs&keywords=9780762787814

and this link: http://books.google.com/books?id=BxVKAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=nicklaus+13th+hole+augusta+1986&source=bl&ots=fG16ZBUQM3&sig=eVH4YWPnz5DgCKEXwli87k7P4g4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pt9GU7W9K8Oo2AWlvYC4Dw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=nicklaus%2013th%20hole%20augusta%201986&f=false

say Jack hit 3-wood off the tee at 13 in the final round, followed by a 3-iron. This suggests to me -- along with interviews w/ Jack afterwards saying he needed to get aggressive following his bogey on 12 -- that he was trying to work the ball off the tee right-to-left. The further left you go there on 13 toward the creek, the more the fairway flattens out.

Phil,

3-wood, 3-iron makes sense although, that club looks like it has more loft than a 3-iron.

I don't believe that Nicklaus chose 3-wood off the tee to get close to the creek, I think he chose it to take the dreaded long straight ball out of play.
I think he could shape and place the three wood such that he wouldn't hit his tee shot into the woods in front of him.
   
No one would deliberately hit it that close to the creek to get that marginal benefit.
The shot of preference would be a 3-wood to the center of the fairway and let it roll down until the terrain let's it come to rest.

[Mike Schott]

All of this ignores how hard it is to hit the fairway with a driver or 3 wood on 13. Trees right and trees and Rae's creek left on a drive that requires a draw to give you an iron approach.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()