[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

I have a different take on the play of # 15.

I think a layup with a 3-wood, leaving you 170 yards uphill, as you describe is not necessarily a wise choice.
In the picture you present, a pulled 3-wood would leave you blocked off by the trees, and a pushed 3-wood would probably leave you 180-190 yards uphill.  It would take a perfect 3-wood to end up where you want, and.... if you can hit a perfect 3-wood, you should be able to hit a good driver to a prefered position and shorter yardage for your approach.

I looked at the fairway and was confident that I could aim at the left corner of the bunker and turn the ball, leaving me a shorter shot into the green.  However, my decision was fortified by the fact that I hadn't missed my aiming point in the fairway on any of the previous holes by more than a few yards.  I think decisions should be made by factoring in your previous shot execution.  Had my driver been erratic, perhaps I would have hit a 3-wood, but..... I doubt it.

Even if you hit it where you want, 170 yards from the green which sits uphill, that's still no easy shot, and could possibly leave you a chip/pitch shot, and you know how dangerous they can be for you.  I think you should blast your driver leaving you the shortest approach to the green.

I didn't think that # 13 was a weak hole.
I liked the fairway bunkering.
Perhaps the green could use some additional defenses, but the premium on driving accuracy seemed more then an adequate test.

Perhaps # 14 green could have been better defended.

I thought # 15 was a very good hole.

# 16 used length as it's primary defense, with a friendly green complex.

I also liked the fairway bunkering at # 17.

I don't see the size of the drop off that others do on the last six holes.  Perhaps I'm missing something.

How do the last six holes compare to the first two holes ?
Are # 1 and # 2 that strong ?

I suspect that if additional defenses were added around the greens, it would satisfy Matt & Geoff with respect to providing more of a challenge for them.

On the play of # 15 we have a difference of opinion

[Mike Worth]

Matt Ward.

Yes, as a member of Hidden Creek, I probably have some biases.  But my issue is your biases, to which you seem to be blind.  Tom Doak makes a very good point, Coore and Crenshaw now have 2 courses on the top 100 list.  

And if you played the course LAST May, you played it before it was open, as it wasn't open for play until June of last year.  Not sure how good of a look you can get when you play a course before it's been open.  

Aren't you a panelist on one of these magazines?

Patrick Mucci - the play from the 15th tee depends on what tee you are playing (member or back) and which direction the wind is blowing from.  All the other calculations you mention are accurate, IMO, except being blocked out on the left side by the trees.  I've never seen anyone blocked out left by those trees.  A ball hit too far left will be in the trees.  The only balls BLOCKED by the left trees are those only going 200 yards or so off the tee.

And Finally, to Matt Ward, I have a slight issue with your syntax.  Above you said "I NEEDED to go re-read some of your stuff".  You don't know me, but I take issue with that.  There are only 2 people in my life that have told me I NEEDED to do something  -- my mother and my Drill Sergeant.  Thanks for helping, though.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

SS1,

Are  you saying that you never played with someone who hit a 3-wood from the back tee and mis-hit it left, short of the corner of the dogleg, blocked by the tees, or that it is impossible to mis-hit a 3-wood from the back tees, to the left, short of the turn in the dogleg, blocked out by the trees ?

I'll add.....with the wind in their face... as a bonus question ?

[Mike Worth]

Patrick.

From the back tees, most people can take driver.  To answer more directly, the duck hook you speak of goes into the woods or the rough.  If you want to consider being in the high fescue as being "blocked", I can't argue with you there.  But I've never seen a hook be so short of the opening so as to be blocked by the trees.  I have played with some higher handicaps that don't carry the ball more than 200 from the tee and they are blocked out as you describe.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SS1,

You must be new to the site.

Don't mention the words "duck hook" when TEPaul and/or Ran is on site.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

I never stated that my opinion was the only one.  What I did say is that the placement of Hidden Creek in the top 100 is way too high -- particularly when you compare the course to other wonderful layouts that exist in New Jersey. For Hidden Creek to make such a top ten listing ahead of others in the Garden State it would have to be no less than an 8 on your scale IMHO. I don't see the course being that high and others have also stated no less.
 
Let's also keep in minf there are people HERE on GCA who are big fans of certain "star" architects (alive and dead) and they have a tendency in my mind to give these "name" architects a wide latitude regarding their efforts. If you changed the name of the architect and left the course AS IS -- these same people would likely have a lesser opinion because of the name that's attached. Second, I rate golf courses as they come on line -- I don't give bonus points because these same architects designed a home run course prior the one being assessed. Not all people do this but I can see it clearly with others.

Third, the courses I listed ahead of Hidden Creek all opened BEFORE the Atlantic City course came forward. Why is it that panelists have not weighed in on these courses is beyond me. I can only surmise that it's either they have not played them thus far or they don't believe they merit such high marks when compared to HC. If it's the second reason I respectfully disagree and it's high time these panelists got into the country and seen what's out there because the ones I mentioned are clearly exceptional in my mind and worthy of recognition.

Tom -- I encourage people to personally play the courses that are out there in the USA. I just have a tough time accepting certain courses getting such high marks when others of greater quality IMHO are left sitting on the sidelines. Nothing more -- nothing less.

SS1:

I played the course through the invitation of Roger Hansen as did the GolfWeek panelists who were with me that day. If the course wasn't "ready" that's not my fault -- then such an invitation to play should have been held until it was deemed "ready."

Please do me a big favor and again re-read what I posted. I said very clearly that a rating is based on a certain point in time. A return visit to Hidden Creek may mean a changing of my mind and it may mean my initial opinions are reinforced.  One other thing -- have you ever read the review I wrote in Jersey Golfer? If you bothered to do it -- I'd like to know SPECIFICALLY where you think I erred?  If you have not read it I'd be happy to mail you a copy of the article and you can decide for yourself where I erred?

SS1 -- when you say you don't need to do anything PLEASE do yourself a big favor and stop with the verbal grenades and mistatements against me and what I have seen and rated. If you have not read exactly what I have posted I do appreciate you not making up items to fit your idea of who I am and what I actually posted. I served as national course rating panelist for 17 years for GD and I don't carry agendas against any club. I rate simply on the merits or lack thereof. When you say you "probably" have some biases I have to say it's time for you to understand that you likely DO HAVE biases because of your connection as a member. There's no "probably" involved with that at all IMHO.

[larry_munger]

I suspect HC is quite happy with their Golf Magazine ranking and might not give a rats a** what JG has to say. But then again I could be wrong.

[Matt_Ward]

Larry M:

You're absolutely right sir and you know what -- I "might not" give a (to use your expression) a rats a** what Golf Magazine thinks is the best either.  But then again I could be wrong. If you want to read the actual review that appeared in Jersey Golfer let me know via offline. I'll be glad to mail you a copy and you can make your own assessment.

 

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