Notable Course Construction Threads?

[Jack Parrish]

Greetings!

Having recently found my way into the 5th Major at Dismal River, I have spent several internet "sessions" reading through the threads I could find. The most interesting to me was the thread that followed the construction process of Doak's Course at Dismal (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49453.0.html).

Then, found one about Streamsong (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46114.0.html).

Are there any other threads of note of detailed construction (and discussion) as the threads above? I have searched terms like "construction," "construction progress," and haven't really found anything nearly as interesting ( i.e. staking, routing, clearing, growing, and before/after pictures/discussion).

Does anyone have any recommendations?

Many thanks on any insight!

Jack

[Mark Fedeli]

Thanks for digging these up. It's interesting to look back on certain things in hindsight, like when TD thought the course names at Streamsong would change because "Blue" and "Red" weren't marketable enough. (The 5th Major will be my first taste of Dismal Doak as well.)

[Mike Nuzzo]

My blog started with the construction of wolf point - a few hundred posts about details.
Ian's blog has a lot as well.

[Tom_Doak]

Jack:

I'm not sure that either of the threads you posted are really much at all about "course construction" ... they were just Q & A's about progress on the courses in question.  Maybe that's all you were after, though.

It is difficult to discuss construction here.  Most people don't know much about it, for starters.  And most pictures taken in the dirt, just look like dirt, even to me, so they are unlikely to be very helpful to anyone except as a "sneak peek" at the property.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jack,

Notwithstanding Mike Nuzzo and Ian Andrews' blogs,  over the years this site and it's predecessor really haven't had many threads on construction.

Tom Doak mentioned that most people here - with the exception of those in the business - really don't know anything about construction. I would take that further and suggest most folks here really aren't that interested.

Instead, I think the interest of "golf architecture junkies" is focused on design or how to make golf holes interesting and challenging. I think there is also a great deal of interest in routing, but again I don't think you will find that many threads devoted to this subject, especially if you are looking for how the architect made his routing decisions and what trade offs were made that may have left off holes that might have been interesting.

I don't mean to discourage your interest in construction, but just wanted to set some expectations. That subject just isn't featured here.

[hhuffines]

I've been wondering the same as I enjoy before, during and after photos of course changes and new construction.  I ran across the Roaring Gap maintenance blog which details green reconstruction and damage repair.  I wondered if other crews kept a blog with photos.

[Chris Johnston]

Jack,

It's pretty rare that the folks here (or anywhere) have a ringside seat to a new course being designed and built from the start.  Tom's course is our second, and many who saw it evolve were members and good friends, their guests, and/or folks who came out for events on the first course.  Many of the the guys who designed and/or built the course are active on GCA so it made perfect sense to "open the windows".  We really enjoyed the visits, and Tom and his team were very accepting.

Tom did a cool walking tour of his layout early on during a previous 5th Major.  I bet few, if any, who participated had ever done that before...let alone with one of the masters at the peak of his career!  It was Tom's option to do it, and I think everyone found it a once in a lifetime experience.

In most cases, especially on first courses, there is little catalyst for a large group to see the goings-on until a course is done.  Then, you get the splashy marketing program and that isn't our style.  I suppose we could have hid the course behind the veil to build anticipation, but we thought it cool and fun to open it up to those interested...in real time.  It was fun!

CJ

[Thomas Dai]

Jack,

Here's a thread I started a while back about course construction in yee olde days.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55652.0.html

Some interesting photos were posted in response.

It would be nice to have more.

atb

[Scott Weersing]

Here is a thread about the Short hole at Old Macdonald:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33446.0.html

[Scott Weersing]

Another one about Old Macdonald:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37876.0.html

[Randy Thompson]

Jack,
I really thought the site would find such threads interesting and always wondered why more don´t do what your suggesting. Pictures never seem capture the reality and maybe some find it risky and others feel may feel it a form of self promotion. I never worried about the self promotion factor becasue I only am interested in designing in south and central america and recently the site just added the first two South American members besides myself. Anyways I have posted a couple in the past but there was very Little discussion and thus my conclusions of little interest. Anyways if your interested search, Santa Martina and Cordoba and you will find a couple of before and after and dirt pictures ect.

[Jack Parrish]

All,

Thanks for the responses!

Tom and Tim:
I think the Dismal thread was interesting to me because of the transformation of the prairie into the course that it is now. I think that is what others have explained they are interested in: blank canvas to final product.

Chris:
I think I underestimated the Dismal thread and am beginning to see that it is a rarity rather than commonplace to document the progress of a course. The PR aspect of the process and how some courses/firms would be unwilling to reveal their unfinished product and may be under contractual agreement not to is another side I overlooked. Tom and Mike: does this happen? Do firms/courses have confidentiality clauses in their contracts?

Again, thanks for all the responses!

Jack

[Tom_Doak]

The PR aspect of the process and how some courses/firms would be unwilling to reveal their unfinished product and may be under contractual agreement not to is another side I overlooked. Tom and Mike: does this happen? Do firms/courses have confidentiality clauses in their contracts?

Some of our clients have added a clause to the contract where I am supposed to get their approval when I discuss the course [even after it opens], because they want to control their message.  I have violated this routinely in small instances, but sometimes I do have to draw the line in bigger instances.  I try to help them understand that the publicity I generate is of value to them, but some understand better than others.

A couple have had strict confidentiality clauses [though I guess I can't say which ], others have had nothing ... but even if there isn't one, sometimes the client will ask me directly not to comment on something, and I have to accede to their requests for the sake of maintaining a good relationship.

[Mike_Young]

Jack,

Notwithstanding Mike Nuzzo and Ian Andrews' blogs,  over the years this site and it's predecessor really haven't had many threads on construction.

Tom Doak mentioned that most people here - with the exception of those in the business - really don't know anything about construction. I would take that further and suggest most folks here really aren't that interested.

Instead, I think the interest of "golf architecture junkies" is focused on design or how to make golf holes interesting and challenging. I think there is also a great deal of interest in routing, but again I don't think you will find that many threads devoted to this subject, especially if you are looking for how the architect made his routing decisions and what trade offs were made that may have left off holes that might have been interesting.

I don't mean to discourage your interest in construction, but just wanted to set some expectations. That subject just isn't featured here.

Tim,
I agree that construction is rarely discussed or of interest here.  I have always argued that one can talk about hole designs all day long.  He can tel you how he would place a green or a bunker or a tee but if he has never dealt with construction he has no idea if any of it will work.  IMHO if an architect does not understand the elements of construction and what works then what good is he?  That's the problem with many of the professional golfer types...not all but many...  And it is the problem with just drafting and making a site visit here and there.  I think constrcution is more closely related to golf design than any other form of design/construction...JMO   AND YET SO MANY HERE DON'T GET IT...

[JC Urbina]

Jack,

I have a variety of photos that document the building of Pacific Dunes, Old Macdonald and recently the Punchbowl putting green at the Bandon Dunes Resort.

I always enjoyed taking before and after photos and telling the story that goes along with the design and building of almost every golf course I have been involved with.  Using a mixture of still photos and videos that are taken during the process, they include images of Sebonack and every hole at Ballyneal before an ounce of dirt was ever moved. It wouldn’t take long to match the before photos with the current images.  I wanted to capture the moment and then see if the hole turned out the way I may have visualized it, with so many revisions it is always fun to see the final rendition, it makes for an interesting discussion at dinner.

Posting the pictures on GCA is difficult because of the size of the images.  When I have given slide shows it is usually presented on a large screen that needs very tight images so it would be hard to down load them all and I am usually explaining and backtracking during the presentation.   Maybe some day I will do a DVD/ Book

I have given the presentation to many groups at the Bandon Dunes Resort; one of the most enjoyable was the Macdonald Cup.  It was a hit with the attendees, some of them who have never seen the original Redan at North Berwick or The Eden at St. Andrews.  In my presentation images are flashed on the screen of Old Macdonald before we started with the construction, looking at a hole in its raw state is a real eye opener.  I show the “ideal hole” we used for inspiration and then show various stages of the construction including clearing, shaping, the finish work, drop seeding and hydro mulching.  One image shows a panoramic pre-construction view looking south west from the 15th tee at Old Macdonald, followed up by photos taken during the construction process and then finally a beautiful morning picture showing the same view one year later.  I follow up with some photos of the grow-in and finally the hole with grass and the flagpole sitting on the green.  The work that Ken Nice and the grow-in staff did at Old Macdonald was first class, included are several photos of those guys in action; they were the key to the golf courses success.

I have also done extensive photo work at Pasatiempo, The Valley Club and many of the restoration projects I have been involved with.  Brian Chapin, the Superintendent at the Paramount Club, has time-lapse footage of a par 3 green that was totally transformed in front of your eyes.  It is a week’s worth of imagery condensed to 7 minutes.    He set up a ladder about 75 yards in front of the green and put the camera 20 feet into the air and took photos every minute, fun to watch. 

Information is there it is just hard to put it on this website and as Mike Young alluded to, some just wont get it.

 

[Mark Fedeli]

Tom & Jim, it's interesting that you think the construction process wouldn't be of more interest on here. We talk so much about minimal earth moving and how seamlessly the great courses fit onto the land; but for those of us who have not seen the planning process in person, it's hard to fully appreciate. Even just the before and after photos are fantastic in giving a much more realistic sense of what it all entails and how true to our philosophies it really is.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim Urbina:

I am glad you mentioned the Redan hole at Old Macdonald and would certainly enjoy seeing your before and after pictures.

However, I think this hole is a really good example of how "construction" may really not be of that much interest to many golf architecture junkies who aren't professionally involved in the business. If you recall, you, Tom and I walked a good portion of Old Macdonald one day during the construction phase. I distinctly remember standing on the tee site and you and Tom pointing to the green site for the Redan hole.

Honestly, I got nothing out of that. Ok, I thought. You will build a Redan hole at that site, but so what? Nothing screamed to me "this is where a Redan hole should be built". Really, nothing stood out at all. I wasn't that interested, I think, because the land simply didn't suggest to me anything in particular should be built at that site.

The experience was very much in contrast to a time Tom and I spent on site before the second course at Stonewall was built. On that occasion, Tom mentioned that what would become the 3rd hole was inspired by a hole from Royal Melbourne (#4 West Course, if I remember correctly).
 
That had me fascinated because it was about looking at the land, thinking about what was done on another property with a somewhat similar land form and determining what would be best to do in this (Stonewall) instance. In short, it was discussion about design not construction.

Again, I apologize to anyone with a genuine interest in construction as opposed to design, but I just don't think there are truly many of us like that who don't build golf courses for a living.

[Jack Parrish]

Jim:

Your presentation sounds really cool, and I would love to see those pictures some day if you publish them in a book or DVD. Thanks for your response!

Jack

[Michael Blake]

Here's a good thread on Philly Cricket's renovation:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56045.0.html

[Tim Liddy]

Quote from Bill Murray in Esquire on making movies. Replace golf course when you read movie:

R: It's amazing what goes into making a movie.

BM: But nobody cares. It's like talking about the difficulties of fame. Nobody gives a shit. No one could care less. But it's an amazing triumph even to make a bad movie. Even a crap film is really an extraordinary achievement. You're taking a two-dimensional object and making it three-dimensional. The number of people. The number of days. The number of cuts.