Belvedere's and Lawsonia's being built we don't know about?

[Mark Pritchett]

[BCowan]

I am more interested in the Golf course

[Mark Pritchett]

Hopefully someone will post a copy of the aerial photo of the course that is in the golf shop.  Pretty interesting stuff. 

[BCowan]

Mark

   I stated in the opening post that I could have kicked myself for not playing it last fall because of plugged greens.  Last fall was my only trip up north.  I have only heard about the course in the last 1.5 years and wished I'd known about it years earlier.  If Crystal Downs had a old van if front of the clubhouse do you think that it would stop people from paying $225 a pop unaccompanied?

[BHoover]

I certainly won't speak for anyone else, but I'd be willing to play Crystal Downs regardless of whether there's a passenger van parked out front.

But getting back on topic, I'm not sure I'd classify Lost Dunes as middle market at the current going rate.  Okay, maybe compared to Trump's new version of Doral, but I don't think that I'd consider a fee of approximately $150 to be middle of the market.  So I stand by my assertion that the only new developments we are seeing are high-end types. 

Yes, there may be renovations and restorations, but I don't think the golf market is growing enough to justify new courses that aren't going to be damn near sure things, which is why I think the high-end places are the ones being built.

[BCowan]

I certainly won't speak for anyone else, but I'd be willing to play Crystal Downs regardless of whether there's a passenger van parked out front.

  +1

[Bob_Garvelink]

The reality is that golf groups want to be able to play 12 guys on a whole while bonging Budweisers and lighting off fire crackers.  That's not gonna fly at Belvedere and that's why the masses flock to locations like Treetops, Boyne, Treetops, Shanty Creek, and Grand Traverse Resort.  Those resort courses also know how to treat customers something I think a lot of high end courses lack.  There are plenty of high end courses with great customer service but there are also quite a few that act as if your doing them a favor by playing their course.

As GCAers we all want to play courses with unique architecture but most weekend warriors could care less about Alister MacKenzie or any other architect.  We're the minority and I don't see anything changing anytime soon.

[Mark Pritchett]

Mark

   I stated in the opening post that I could have kicked myself for not playing it last fall because of plugged greens.  Last fall was my only trip up north.  I have only heard about the course in the last 1.5 years and wished I'd known about it years earlier.  If Crystal Downs had a old van if front of the clubhouse do you think that it would stop people from paying $225 a pop unaccompanied?

I have no idea what (or why) you are asking me in the above quote. 

[BCowan]

Mark

   You erased your post.  You asked me if I played the course before.  I am wondering why you put a photo of a Belvedere van on the thread?

[Mark Pritchett]

I modified my post after I noticed you had not played it.  Not sure what the Crystal Downs reference has to do with anything in this thread and/or my post.  Do you not like the van photo? 

[Jason Thurman]

Serious question: Is there really any shortage of mid priced golf of decent quality?

I've lived in five states and traveled all over the country. I don't think I've ever been somewhere where affordable golf of decent quality couldn't be found relatively nearby. Of course, not all those courses can be as good as Lawsonia, or Lawsonia wouldn't be a top 100 classic in Golfweek. But I've also never found a real shortage of affordable Doak 4s and 5s.

Selfishly it'd be nice to have an infinite number of them to keep budget savvy GCAers engaged forever, but I just don't believe it's an underrepresented segment of the market. The answer to "Why isn't product X being created?" is always a simple one in a free market - there's already enough supply to satisfy demand.

[Sean_A]

Serious question: Is there really any shortage of mid priced golf of decent quality?

I've lived in five states and traveled all over the country. I don't think I've ever been somewhere where affordable golf of decent quality couldn't be found relatively nearby. Of course, not all those courses can be as good as Lawsonia, or Lawsonia wouldn't be a top 100 classic in Golfweek. But I've also never found a real shortage of affordable Doak 4s and 5s.

Selfishly it'd be nice to have an infinite number of them to keep budget savvy GCAers engaged forever, but I just don't believe it's an underrepresented segment of the market. The answer to "Why isn't product X being created?" is always a simple one in a free market - there's already enough supply to satisfy demand.

I agree with Jason at least where Michigan is concerned.  There is a lot of decent to pretty good public golf available for reasonable prices, at least in the areas I know - Detroit burbs & Ann Arbor.  I can understand folks wanting top 100 classic courses built in abundance, but to be honest, many folks will look at Belv and Laws and see decent public golf at a higher pricing level.  In other words, most folks don't care about architecture or think places like Belv and Laws are in any way special.  

Since most can't play the privates of the US, it can easily be argued that the strength of golf in the US is the quality of public golf available for less than $40-50.    

The Belvs and Laws are being built - only we call them something else.  Time will reveal these modern nuggets, just as time revealed Belv and Laws as classic nuggets. Be patient or pay attention in the afterlife.  Of course, you could always just play the courses you like and not worry about their reputation or lack thereof  .

Ciao

[BCowan]

''I modified my post after I noticed you had not played it.  Not sure what the Crystal Downs reference has to do with anything in this thread and/or my post.  Do you not like the van photo?''

    My bad, I thought you were making fun of the course by showing an old van in front of the clubhouse.  You think it is cool as do I.   

[BCowan]

S

    I don't look at things through GCA eyes.  I understand many play a Dr Mack or whatever Golden age archie and don't care who did it.  However what set Belvedere and Lawsonia apart is that they get a lot of vacation play.  It is nice to go on vacation and know that there is a nice course that you can at least walk and is built for it.  I think there is great public golf in SW Michigan, but Ann Arbor/SE Michigan I don't agree with you.  Go to Florida and go find a course you can walk, besides the land and the archies at Streamsong they made walking an intricate part of the experience and it seems to be a great hit!  I don't care about top 100 as much as most do.  My point is Lawsonia and Belvedere offer ''walking, solid arch, and ''Spirit of the Game'' for a little cost and I hope they remain healthy and more of those courses get built and people know about them (Advertising what makes them great) as the Keisers of the world advertise (''walking, solid arch, and ''Spirit of the Game'').  

[SB]

This article is interesting as it relates to this discussion:

http://ngfdashboard.clubnewsmaker.org/Newsletter/16v79s9mdey

[Mike Schott]

S

    I don't look at things through GCA eyes.  I understand many play a Dr Mack or whatever Golden age archie and don't care who did it.  However what set Belvedere and Lawsonia apart is that they get a lot of vacation play.  It is nice to go on vacation and know that there is a nice course that you can at least walk and is built for it.  I think there is great public golf in SW Michigan, but Ann Arbor/SE Michigan I don't agree with you.  Go to Florida and go find a course you can walk, besides the land and the archies at Streamsong they made walking an intricate part of the experience and it seems to be a great hit!  I don't care about top 100 as much as most do.  My point is Lawsonia and Belvedere offer ''walking, solid arch, and ''Spirit of the Game'' for a little cost and I hope they remain healthy and more of those courses get built and people know about them (Advertising what makes them great) as the Keisers of the world advertise (''walking, solid arch, and ''Spirit of the Game'').  

Hi Ben.

I don't know what public tracks you've played in SE Michigan but there are many that are worth playing that are walkable. We are not talking GCA type courses of course but we don't lack for good public tracks. Here are a few that come to mind:

Leslie Park
Huron Hills
Kensington
Hilltop-Plymouth
Dunham Hills
Farmington Golf Club
Salem Hills
Blackheath
Eagle Crest (not sure if they allow walking but it's walkable)

That's a quick list off the top of my head. These are all probably 3-4's on the Doak scale and for the most part are under $40.00 to walk.