[Matthew Sander]

Bill,

David's reply is polite and measured. For the most part his responses make sense and I'm sure his point of view is shared by many.

That said, his position is diametrically opposed to yours (and mine for that matter). I see very little common ground and I question whether or not David is a potential convert. He sounds like a reasonable guy though so I wouldn't hesitate to continue the back and forth.

One thing though, he really seems to downplay the need to keep maintenance costs in check. I'm surely oversimplifying his point, but it sounds as if he is not concerned with the escalating budgets that would go along with his desired level of maintenance.

[Sean_A]

Or even worse (and I think this is why a lot of low handicappers complain) is when you and I each hit seven irons into the same exact bunker--one ball plugs and the other ball, which is just a few feet away, has a thin lie.  This is my main gripe--consistency.

The above to me is where the rubber hits the road.  I fundamentally disagree with the above premise.  All lies are inherently different and it should not be a goal to homogenize lies in the rough, sand or fairway.

Does David complain if the same situation occurs in the rough?  If not, why should the rough be inconsistent, but not a bunker?  

How bout in a water hazard where one has a play and the other doesn't?  

Taking the premise to its logical extreme, how bout the one foot difference between fairway and a hazard?  

Sometimes golf is a game of inches and sometimes good fortune smiles upon us.  I take it as good fortune anytime I am in the sand and have a decent lie and stance because I know this isn't always the case and god forbid if it were.

Ciao

[BCowan]

As pertaining to bunkers i think drainage should be the most important topic.  I agree with Sean as Golf is rub of the green and we don't have enough of that. 

   I personally have worked golf maint for a short period of time, i was interested in getting people's opinion that actually have done the prepping.  When we did maint.  one guy drives the sand pro, the other one did touch up.  Now there are more unique and fine constructed bunkers at other clubs and I am curious as to how much time they spend on bunkers.  From memory it seemed as though 2 crew members had bunkers done in 2-3 hours.

   Unfortunately places like Muirfield Village and Augusta measure each bunker depth and people want that attention to detail at their club.  It is funny as Jack had gone to wide grove old school rakes to make them harder.  Maybe he should just focus on letting them be the hazards that they are

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Basically, I believe there needs to be as many man hours and dollars spent on the bunkers "as required" so that they all play in the same manner--once again my point being consistency.  

This "as required" endeavor should not break the budget or drain man hours.

Bill: isn't your point that achieving consistency is, in fact, impossible, and that any attempt to do so would in fact break the budget and be a drain on man hours? Caveat being I know nothing about bunker maintenance at a top end club.

I think this is the main point, the way that different people view that word "consistency"
One can enever allow for which ball is going to plug and which one isnt, the physics of backspin and the way the shot was hit can vary that, as can  a gust of wind between two shots hit just seconds apart, so that argument thrown in by David has simply nothing to do with maitenance.
To me it is very rare that a course exhibits bunkers that vary so much from hole to hole or even bunker to bunker and when it is, it is more of a player bourne issue than the greens crew.

Heck on our course here in Texarkana in the sumer, we can get a major rain downpour on one side of the course that will compact the sand and on the other the rain will never arrive leaving the sand fluffy, now what?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I don't see it as diametrically opposing views, just a question of where along the continuum of no maintenance to perfect maintenance any give club wants to be.

I do see clogged drains as the biggest problem many courses face, and that infrastructure should be kept working.  So much of the consistency complaint, as I noted before, comes from the quality of sand you can afford, i.e. shipping sand from Ohio or Arkansas to where you are.  Some sands just plug a bit.  

I doubt anyone wants a plugged lie, and some sands do that and shouldn't be used.  It's just that most sands do give fried egg lies.  If those theoretical two shots getting different results solely the fault of the sand?  Or did one come in higher than the other, with more spin, etc. that might cause a plug?

In other words, we probably spend 20% getting that first 80% of consistency, and 80% getting the last 18-19%, but we never get to 100%. Just isn't possible.

[Bill_McBride]

Has anyone mentioned that there's nothing in the Rules against testing the depth and condition of the sand while digging in one's feet to play a bunker shot?

At least I don't think there is.

There's a decision that it's also permitted to take two wedges into the bunker and toss one out after deciding how to play the shot. 

[Matthew Sander]

Jeff B.,

I probably didn't word my previous post clearly enough. However, I do believe that the positions of Bill and David are diametrically opposed at the most basic level. Sean pointed out that difference of opinion in a previous post. David believes that two similar shots hit into a bunker should leave two equally similar results. From his other statements regarding consistency, I would surmise that he feels shots in different bunkers throughout the course should be treated similarly as well. If I am interpreting Bill's position correctly, he does not feel the same way. He contends that once a ball is hit into a bunker there should be little expectation of consistency or predictability. There really isn't much, if any, overlap in those points of view.

[JMEvensky]

Why wouldn't you send this letter to the entire membership?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matthew and Brian,

My real point was that we have been encouraged to rake bunkers since I was a kid in the 1960's and it wasn't new then, so it has been a similar mind set of reasonable bunker lies, maybe even back to the 1920's.  Anyone know when bunker rakes were invented?

It has gone from eliminating footprints, to eliminating plugged lies, to making sure the ball sets up perfectly every time.  Every year, someone incrementally ups the ante, with perhaps a bigger jump when JN started designing courses and encouraging "tournament agronomy."  Hey, other tour pros are to blame, as well.  I don't mind tour courses being "fair" with millions on the line. 

But, its like Augusta syndrome, in that it has crept further down the food chain.  Maybe the Country Club for a Day and gradual decline of club memberships is a problem too - with more former club players playing public access courses they may put pressure on for exorbitant budgets.  Its one thing if you decide your club wants million dollar bunkers, but forcing those on the general public is another matter, at least IMHO.

I believe management companies at non equity clubs push back, as they just don't see the financial gain of grooming bunkers for the most demanding players.

[Garland Bayley]

Or even worse (and I think this is why a lot of low handicappers complain) is when you and I each hit seven irons into the same exact bunker--one ball plugs and the other ball, which is just a few feet away, has a thin lie.  This is my main gripe--consistency.

The above to me is where the rubber hits the road.  I fundamentally disagree with the above premise.  All lies are inherently different and it should not be a goal to homogenize lies in the rough, sand or fairway.

Does David complain if the same situation occurs in the rough?  If not, why should the rough be inconsistent, but not a bunker?  

How bout in a water hazard where one has a play and the other doesn't?  

Taking the premise to its logical extreme, how bout the one foot difference between fairway and a hazard?  

Sometimes golf is a game of inches and sometimes good fortune smiles upon us.  I take it as good fortune anytime I am in the sand and have a decent lie and stance because I know this isn't always the case and god forbid if it were.

Ciao

Sean,

You beat me to it. +1 on your post. Next he will want the water level to never change in a water hazard. Good luck with that one on seaside courses.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yes, rough is never a consistent lie, is it, even if at some courses its as nice as fairways others of us play.....

We just cannot eliminate every unfair bounce, nor would we want to.

[Bill Brightly]

Why wouldn't you send this letter to the entire membership?

First of all, I served my seven year maximum and I am no longer on the board. It is not appropriate for an individual member to send position letters to the membership. But even if I could, I would not do so because I view this as a very minor issue, and only a handful of the "sticks" complain. An open letter would just elevate this to a "hot topic" when it is not. I'm satisfied speaking directly with my low handicap friends one-to-one and hope that I can change a few opinions. Look, as a low handicap myself, I've done my share of whining about bunker conditions. It took 4 years serving as Grounds Chair and about 10 years hanging out on GCA.COM to gradually change my viewpoint. I'll be patient until the "sticks" see the light.

[JMEvensky]

Why wouldn't you send this letter to the entire membership?

First of all, I served my seven year maximum and I am no longer on the board. It is not appropriate for an individual member to send position letters to the membership. But even if I could, I would not do so because I view this as a very minor issue, and only a handful of the "sticks" complain. An open letter would just elevate this to a "hot topic" when it is not. I'm satisfied speaking directly with my low handicap friends one-to-one and hope that I can change a few opinions. Look, as a low handicap myself, I've done my share of whining about bunker conditions. It took 4 years serving as Grounds Chair and about 10 years hanging out on GCA.COM to gradually change my viewpoint. I'll be patient until the "sticks" see the light.

I should have asked "why wouldn't the current Green Chair...". I didn't mean to imply that you personally should send it.Apologies for the poorly thought out question.

Speaking in general club terms,not your place in particular,I disagree that bunker maintenance is a minor issue.I think few members really understand the cost and how big a percentage of the budget is spent on them.

IMO,clubs would be well served by communicating to the membership your argument about spending it on hazards versus spending it on greens/fairways.

[Bill Brightly]

JME,

Letters from the Grounds Chair risk escalating a minor issue only raised by a few low handicaps, into a club-wide discussion topic. Now we might have the entire membership analyzing every bunker, trying to decide if we have a problem... And we really do NOT have a problem. Our bunkers are at least as good as 95% of the courses in our state. I know, because I play a lot of different courses.

As others have stated, this is probably an issue at most country clubs in the US, an issue raised largely by single digit members, and an issue that boils down to this question: How much money are we willing to spend on maintaining hazards? I'm perfectly happy to have the question phrased that way, rather than "why are our bunkers inconsistent."

[Bill_McBride]

I mentioned this to my wife, that better players complain about inconsistent bunker sand.  Her comment?

"Whiners!  They want everything to be perfect."

[Joe Hancock]

I don't see it as diametrically opposing views, just a question of where along the continuum of no maintenance to perfect maintenance any give club wants to be.

My view would be that what you are likely describing as perfect maintenance would be anything but to me. It reminds me of the picture of healthy grass that the universities push on superintendents. Institution and status quo have influenced too much of the game of golf, IMO.

Joe

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