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Paul_Turner

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Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« on: August 12, 2003, 01:03:12 PM »
I've posted a couple from this CH Alison, Dutch links, before, but thought it was worth revisiting.  It looks super (photos from Jeroen Pit).  The scrub reminds me of Birkdale and perhaps Prairie Dunes.


1st

2nd

4th

5th

6th

6th

7th

8th

8th

9th

9th

10th

11th

14th

14th

15th

15th

16th

16th

17th

18th (clubhouse may have burned down?)

« Last Edit: August 12, 2003, 01:04:44 PM by P_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

T_MacWood

Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2003, 01:11:27 PM »
Paul
Looks like one hell of a layout. Is this Wildhoeve on the 1939 100?

David_Tepper

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2003, 01:17:09 PM »
Paul-

These could be your best pictures yet - just terrific!!!
What else can you tell us about this course (par, length, etc.)
Where exactly is it located? Have any GCAer's (beside yourself) ever played it? Does it play as good as it looks?

DT

Michael Dugger

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2003, 01:18:56 PM »
Damn!! I'll :D 2nd what Macwood said.

I may not be able to tell my arse from a hole in the ground but based on the photographic evidence alone I think this course looks like a bona fide hidden gem.  

WOW!!!
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2003, 01:19:21 PM »
Paul, Totally impressed by the layout, but I'm wondering about the bunkers. They don't see very Colt-like.

How far is the site away from the sea?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2003, 01:19:48 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Paul_Turner

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2003, 01:27:47 PM »
Tom

That's the one.

David

I only have the pics-haven't been there.  They were sent to me by an occasional GCAer (Jeroen).  Tom Doak has seen it, as has Mike Clayton.  It looks to be the most spectacular of the Dutch links.  It's by the capital of The Netherlands, The Hague.  I will try to visit soon.

The 14th and 15th look unique.

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Paul_Turner

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2003, 01:32:46 PM »
Tommy

You can bet that the sand was more splashed up.  The course was brought back after WW2, but looking at aerials the doesn't appear to be any difference, before and after.  It doesn't look like a course that relies on bunkers much.

I think this is mainly Alison's course not Colt's.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Stan Dodd

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2003, 01:39:38 PM »
Paul,
I just love your posts and this looks tremendous.  Nice job!
Looks well worth a layover on next trip.
Cheers
Stan

Chris_Clouser

Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2003, 01:44:32 PM »
Paul,  

The comments of it reminding you of Prairie Dunes seem appropriate.  The undulating fairways on 1 and 5 are very similar.  The tee shot on the 4th brings to mind the tee shot on the 6th at PD, only to a par 3.  The 17th also seems to be similar to the 4th at PD to me also.  

The 14th and 15th look like some excellent holes.  Though I can't find any evidence to the effect connecting them, the similarities between Colt/Alison and their work and the work of Maxwell seem striking to me.  It leads me to believe that Maxwell saw a lot of Colt's work while visiting Scotland/England in his only trip to the island on the other side of the pond.  

Bob_Huntley

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2003, 01:54:48 PM »
PT,

I played here back in the mid-sixties. I do believe the name was then something like Wassenaar den Hague,  not the mouthful now of Koninklijke Haagsche Golf and Country Club.

One of the interesting things that I learned during my visit at the club was their attitude to aspiring members. A nominee was required to play with a couple of committe men to see if he knew the ropes. If not, he was given a probationary period to take lessons and learn the rules of the game. Oh, if we could do that here!

In the wind this course can eat anyone's lunch.


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2003, 02:37:40 PM »
Paul, How far is the course away from the water?

Also, do you have any photos of Kennemer?

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2003, 03:37:19 PM »
Paul,

Photos of the first 8 holes remind me of Pacific Dunes.

Thanks for these and the other great photos you put up here. IMHO you are the Poster of the Year...

All The Best,
Twitter: @Deneuchre

ian

Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2003, 04:03:56 PM »
Paul, I looked at the photos and couldn't help thinking why haven't I heard of this place. Paul, this place is incredible, are they open to guest play?

To Paul and the others: Are there others in that area that make this a trip worth making?

Marty Bonnar

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2003, 04:14:41 PM »
Nice One, Paul.
Can't help feeling the place looks a bit like the bastard child of TOC and - Gleneagles!!!
Those have to be the BIGGEST hills in the Netherlands!?!?!?

FBD
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2003, 06:12:47 PM »
Gents

There's plenty of great golf in Holland for a holiday.  The top links are:  Kennemer, Haagsche and Noordwijk(sp?),  I don't have any pics of Colt's Kennemer, but do have some from Noordwijk which is a Frank Pennink design that looks equally good (I'll post).  To go along with the links, you also have three top heathland courses with: De Pan (Utrecht), Eindhoven and Hilversum.  These are small countries so not too much driving and you could easily fit in Royal Zoute in Belgium.

I believe all the courses are open with the same policy as in the UK.  Pretty cheap too, I gather.

Tommy

I don't know how far it is from the water.  I guess not very, although out of view, like most links in the UK.

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Paul_Turner

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2003, 07:50:34 PM »
Tommy

I lied, I do have one photo of Kennemer, although it's very grainy and old.



can't get to heaven with a three chord song

T_MacWood

Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2003, 10:10:36 AM »
Paul
I noticed that you attribute Alison to Haagsche, and after looking at the photos I must say it does look typical of his work--especially the number elevated or pushed up greens (and the bunkering scheme). I knew Alison had worked on the Continent, but I wasn't exactly sure who did what. Do you know who designed Kennemer, were Kennemer and Haagsche created around the same time?

I love the Kennemer clubhouse--a cross between English Arts & Crafts and the Dutch version (the so-called Amsterdam School)....I wonder if its still around.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2003, 10:20:05 AM »
Can't help but wonder when looking at the second pic if that fairway was originally very much wider?  Did it gradually get mown in to the flatter areas?  Do prairie areas experience the same "vegetation creep" as the wooded american courses?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Paul_Turner

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2003, 10:53:35 AM »
Tom

Haagsche was much later than the other Dutch courses, I think 1938.  The other courses, were from the 1920s and are Colt's with some input from Morrison too-the heathland ones (De Pan, Hilversum, Eindhoven).  Kennemer is likely to be Colt's alone.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2003, 11:51:02 AM »
Great to see the pictures of the Hague.  I can confirm that Noordwijk is stunning and Kennemer can be - it depends which 18 you play.  There are the 18 Colt holes at Kennemer, though how accurately they were restored after the Second World War I cannot say.  The place was, it seems, an enormous gunnery base. For the most part they are archetypal links holes with a good deal of movement in the fairways and greens, but not to excess.  The best holes are spread evenly through both nines, being mostly those running on and off a central spine of dunes.  There are 9 new holes (Van Hengel Course) exploring even more tumbling and spectacular dunes but the restrictions placed on the construction by the conservation of the precious dunes (damage them and most of Holland disappears under the North Sea) gives them (to my amateur eye) too much quirkiness.  The clubhouse has been restored exactly as in the old photo, and is a gem.  You can tee off at Kennemer within an hour of landing at Schipol.  

Noordwijk is a must play.  Most of it bounces through, over and round serious dunes.  There are a couple of brief (and rather welcome) excursions into scrubby woodland.  It's a post-war links, with the benefits of Frank Penninck's detailed knowledge of the great British links well to the front.  When I played Kennemer and Noordwijk three years ago both were a little over £30 a round (a half or a quarter of what you would pay at an equivalent British links).  Last year they charged 57 Euros and 64 respectively. The Hague was, comparatively, rather more expensive at 82 Euros.  It is quite short at 5674 metres (add 10% for yards) with a par of 72 off the visitors' tees but it gets up to 6142 metres from the back.  Noordwijk is 5879 metres par 72 off the visitors' tees and 6242 from the back.  Each 9 at Kennemer measures about 2900-2950 metres to a  par of 36, and a total of 6247 metres, par 72, for the composite course used for professional tournaments.

Paul is (as usual) spot on in recommending the inland courses - exactly the same sort of thing you'd find in the Surrey heath-and-heather belt, at a fraction of the cost.  Hilversum is a delight and like Noordwijk and Kennemer, a frequent host to the Dutch Open. Last year its green fee was 45 Euros - a genuine bargain.  Eindhoven (which I don't know, personally) was 50, De Pan (Utrecht) 45.

I can also commend the old Belgian courses.  Royal Zoute somewhat resembles Lytham in that you can't see the sea (nor can you at Kennemer), and there's housing around it, but it's a good test of golf, if rather expensive.  There's a cracking little links course also, Royal Ostende.  Half a dozen holes are real seaside specials, though there are one or two mundane ones, too.  Also in the west is Royal Latem, near Ghent, which lies behind artists' villas.  There's a bit of broom and heather to enliven this otherwise rather featyreless course, but you go there simply to meet and enjoy the company of Reginald Swaelens, the Secretary/greenkeeper (sic), brother of the late Donald Swaelens, a stalwart of European golf a couple of generations ago.   Near the Dutch border is Royal Antwerp, Belgium's oldest club (1888).  It probably doesn't change level by more than three or four feet but it's a Tom Simpson masterpiece with lots of first-rate strategic 2-shot holes.  RGC de Belgique is tremendous.  An old royal hunting lodge is the clubhouse, the trees in their magnificent variety expand on the neighbouring royal arboretum and the layout is a tricky, hilly Tom Simpson delight.  There have been recent amendments to the layout, but, from what I gather, not for the worse.  The Belgian Royal family played frequently at Royal Hainaut, to the south, near Mons.  There is a very English feel to the 18 Hawtree holes dating back to 1933 while Martin Hawtree has added a third nine in 1990, very 'Surrey' in nature with lots of heather.  I personally wouldn't visit Royal Waterloo for its architecture (27 Hawtree holes from 1959 and 18 by Paul Rolin from 1985) but there's something enjoyable about engaging in golfing combat over such a historic battlefield.  But I should insist that any visitor to Belgium should make the journey into the hills near Liege.  Royal Sart Tilman is a 1938 Simpson course laid out on gently rolling parkland, making good strategic use of the natural topography.  It has a beautiful thatched clubhouse and the wine cellar is impressive!  Even better, though, is the splendid 1930 Simpson course high in the hills above Spa, Royal GC des Fagnes.  This is airy country and Simpson's gestures are appropriate, especially the prolific bunkering.  It is laid out in a forest, yet the trees are not overwhelming, they merely provide a nature reserve through which essentially heathland golf is played.

As in Holland, nowhere is further than an hour's drive from the middle of the country, and value for money is no less impressive.  And there are those who say that Belgian cuisine at its finest is even better than French....

Mike_Clayton

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2003, 08:41:23 PM »
Paul

Great photos.The Hague is a wonderful course that I first played in 1980 in The Dutch Amateur but the course site was too small for the Open after about 1980 when Nick Price won there.
The golf in Holland is fantastic and well worth the effort.The amazing thing for a country so flat is that they have all these tumbling golf courses that are great fun.
Mark
We played the Open twice at Kennemer and the original course was by far the superior one. The latter version when we played one old nine  - the front - and the new one which could only be politely described as quirky. It was a real disappointment when we knew what else was there.

Peter Galea

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2003, 08:50:28 PM »
OUTF#@%INGSTANDING! I want to play there. Tak.
"chief sherpa"

TEPaul

Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2003, 09:30:56 PM »
Man, I've spend a good deal of time in Holland but I sure don't remember running across land that looked like that!

Jeff Fortson

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2003, 11:03:18 PM »
KOLF looks like a fun sport!

Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Frank Pont

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Re:Haagsche GC (lots of pics)
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2003, 06:24:57 PM »
Haagsche GC is a few km's inland from the sea, right where the dunes go over into flat land. The clubhouse which you see at the end of hole 18 (it burned down this year), lies on the falt inland ground.

It's bunkers, like unfortunately many other bunkers on Dutch Colt courses, were indeed modified to grasfaced bunkers (mostly for maintenance reasons).

The best hole is definitely nr. 15, other typical Colt holes are 3, 4, 10, 13 and 14.

I've got quite a lot of pics on all the Dutch Colt courses (Kennemer, Eindhoven, Pan, Dommel and Hilversum), I'll try posting them once I get the hang of this system.

Kennemer is probably more traditional Colt , and a more balanced Links course than Haagsche. Noordwijk has the best scenery, but it's routing and greencomplex design isn't as good as that of the Colt courses. The big disappointment with Noordwijk is that it only has one good par 3 (hole 17) in such a fantastic site.

Also look up the website of the Haagsche, it's mostly in Dutch so not much use for most of you, but it does show the strokesavers for all the holes: www.koninklijkehaagschegolf.nl/