[Joel_Stewart]

Par 5, 503 yards.  Average score during the Northern Trust was 4.26 with 29 eagles, 275 birdies and only 9 bogeys.

Should this hole be changed during the tournament to a par 4?

Another option would be to grow the rough on both sides to penalize drives that don't land in the fairway.  I saw numerous players miss the fairway to the left and still hit mid or short irons into the green. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Wow, are we headed backwards here? The very fact that par was not changed should be celebrated.  Grow the rough?! Has Peter Kostis stolen your identity.

The hole can not be lengthened or shortened so just let it play as it does for the rest of the world.  I thought the pressure of a mandatory birdie followed by the second that is a very tough par is one of the things that makes Riviera so great.  It makes for a better tournament to have the leaders lose their lead before they get off the range.  Those first four holes yesterday were as good as it gets.

Another thing for the Bubba haters.  He was the only golfer out there that understood how to play the redan 4th.  That birdie won him the tournament.

[jeffwarne]

Wow, are we headed backwards here? The very fact that par was not changed should be celebrated.  Grow the rough?! Has Peter Kostis stolen your identity.

The hole can not be lengthened or shortened so just let it play as it does for the rest of the world.  I thought the pressure of a mandatory birdie followed by the second that is a very tough par is one of the things that makes Riviera so great.  It makes for a better tournament to have the leaders lose their lead before they get off the range.  Those first four holes yesterday were as good as it gets.

Another thing for the Bubba haters.  He was the only golfer out there that understood how to play the redan 4th.  That birdie won him the tournament.

+1

[SL_Solow]

Agree with Barney.  Question regarding the initial post; does a 4 on a long par 4 count more or less than a 4 on a short 5 when you add them up at the end of the day?

[John Kavanaugh]

Agree with Barney.  Question regarding the initial post; does a 4 on a long par 4 count more or less than a 4 on a short 5 when you add them up at the end of the day?

When you measure success by how far under par you are it matters.  I personally am far more comfortable on the 2nd tee of a round after a par than a birdie.  You really need to go low to understand how the dynamics of your psychosis changes the lower you go.  Even the color red is interesting for those warming up on the range.  Who wants to have to wait while seeing red, red, red?

I actually birdied the first five holes of a round once and literally could hardly pull the club back on the sixth tee.  Thank God it was late in the day and turned dark when I made the turn at 5 under.  I will even go so far to say that those golfers who can go low are brain dead.  Makes me feel better about myself.

[Josh Stevens]

Yes it probably should be a par 4, but only if we accept that the only use of the concept of Par is as a mechanism to keep score while players are a different parts of the round.  If the scoring average is nearer to 4 than 5, then yes, mathematically it should be a par 4

 But to physically change the hole to try and defend this arbitrary number is a little extreme

[Joel_Stewart]

Barney, you posted that the 2nd hole was "playing world class today".  This cannot be said for the 1st hole.

I agree that the score is arbitrary but the hole is not playing the way the architect envisioned and has become obsolete in todays game for the pros.

The statistics support that the hole is playing too easy for the pros. There is little to no defense and the conditioning did not allow any penalty for an errant shot.  There is no strategy on the hole except to bomb it.

[Jason Thurman]

How is the hole made more difficult by changing a number printed on the scorecard?

[Steven Blake]

I like the fact that Rivera starts with an easy par 5.  No changes are necsarry IMHO! 2-5 are harder anyway ... you need the birdie!

I love Rivera and love to watch the pros play it!! Maybe someday if I am lucky enough I will get to play it.

I agree with John that the fact that par hasn't changed should be celebrated!

Steve Blake

[DMoriarty]

I don't care whether they call it a par 4 or a par 5, but calling it a par 5 helps mask just how challenging the course is, even with the rough cut way down.  Even with the USGA's obsession with trying to protect par, they could easily host a USOpen at Riviera without having to trick it up like they had to at Merion.

[Terry Lavin]

I don't care whether they call it a par 4 or a par 5, but calling it a par 5 helps mask just how challenging the course is, even with the rough cut way down.  Even with the USGA's obsession with trying to protect par, they could easily host a USOpen at Riviera without having to trick it up like they had to at Merion.

I'd like to think that this is true, but I bet they would still torture it agronomically and move fairways and do whatever they could to protect par even if it perverted the architecture of the place.  It just seems to be in the DNA of the USGA for that championship.  What do you think they'll do to Pinehurst?  The only thing holding them back is that the women have to tee it up as soon as the men are done.  This might impose some restraint.  Heck, they might even water the course!

[Jim Nugent]

I don't care whether they call it a par 4 or a par 5, but calling it a par 5 helps mask just how challenging the course is, even with the rough cut way down.  Even with the USGA's obsession with trying to protect par, they could easily host a USOpen at Riviera without having to trick it up like they had to at Merion.

How does Riviera play in June? 

The USGA might turn the first into a par 4.  But wouldn't Bubba's winning score of under 270 scare the hell out of the USGA?  Seems to me they would make the course tougher than it plays during the tour stop, to aim for a much higher score than the winner usually turns in there. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Joel

What does playing too easy mean?
What would not be too easy?

I see par as 4.26 for the pros.

Cheers
Mike

[DMoriarty]

You are probably correct Terry.  They would mess with it, and the club has been messing with those things at Riviera for years. But they wouldn't have to mess with it to produce a compelling challenge, even with these guys bombing it a mile.  Of course the same could probably have been said about Merion, and look what they did there. 

I too am curious about what they will do at Pinehurst.  One would hope that they will at least leave some width, but we'll see I guess.
_____________________________________

Jim,  Probably the score would scare them, and as Terry said they'd most assuredly trick it up whether they needed to or not.  But doing so would be a pretty easy matter, I'd think.   For example, I didn't go over and watch this year in person, but on t.v. it looked to me like the kikuyu rough was cut way down, and that the golfers were having relatively easy time from the rough compared to how it often plays.  Kikuyu is a weird grass and it almost reminds me tiny bush. If it is cut low, the ball sits up on top of it. But if kikuyu is higher, the ball drops down below the thick leaves and stalks and it becomes almost impossible.   Allowing the kikuyu rough to grow a bit would make the course much harder than we saw this last weekend. 

I wouldn't hold my breath for an Open there for a number of reasons and I think this is good thing.  I'd hate to see them further screw up the course to appease the USGA.   Plus, the players and announcers would be crying about the greens from the moment the tournament was announced until long after. 

[Bill_McBride]

I don't care whether they call it a par 4 or a par 5, but calling it a par 5 helps mask just how challenging the course is, even with the rough cut way down.  Even with the USGA's obsession with trying to protect par, they could easily host a USOpen at Riviera without having to trick it up like they had to at Merion.

How does Riviera play in June? 

The USGA might turn the first into a par 4.  But wouldn't Bubba's winning score of under 270 scare the hell out of the USGA?  Seems to me they would make the course tougher than it plays during the tour stop, to aim for a much higher score than the winner usually turns in there. 

His score would still be 270 if the first became a par 4. 

[Matthew Petersen]

Barney, you posted that the 2nd hole was "playing world class today".  This cannot be said for the 1st hole.

I agree that the score is arbitrary but the hole is not playing the way the architect envisioned and has become obsolete in todays game for the pros.

The statistics support that the hole is playing too easy for the pros. There is little to no defense and the conditioning did not allow any penalty for an errant shot.  There is no strategy on the hole except to bomb it.

If your argument is simply that, "the hole is not playing the way the architect envisioned," then we're in a lot of trouble. Per Riviera's web site, Thomas noted that the hole, "gives the long man a chance to get near the green in two, with the possibility of reaching it, and the short man can always attain the distance with three reasonable strokes."

That's probably still the case for most of the membership. For the pros ... uh, well, I guess they could knock half the clubhouse down and put the tee back in the parking lot somewhere.

Seriously, though, part of your complaint is based on this year's conditions, which were pretty the pretty unique result of an extended drought. My memory is that most years there is a good bit of pressure to find the fairway from that very elevated tee, because shots from the thick rough can still reach the green, but are difficult to control and keep anywhere near the hole. In prior years, you see a lot of guys, the bombers especially, hitting fairway woods from the tee to find the fairway. They can still reach the green, and I fail to see how this is a bad thing for the most elite players, considering Thomas' own words about the hole and his penchant for gentle par 5 first holes generally.

[Lyndell Young]

Does the green need a little more protection? I would much rather see a difficult bunker added rather than trying to add yardage and making it like every other long par 5. JMO

[Jim Nugent]

I don't care whether they call it a par 4 or a par 5, but calling it a par 5 helps mask just how challenging the course is, even with the rough cut way down.  Even with the USGA's obsession with trying to protect par, they could easily host a USOpen at Riviera without having to trick it up like they had to at Merion.

How does Riviera play in June? 

The USGA might turn the first into a par 4.  But wouldn't Bubba's winning score of under 270 scare the hell out of the USGA?  Seems to me they would make the course tougher than it plays during the tour stop, to aim for a much higher score than the winner usually turns in there. 

His score would still be 270 if the first became a par 4. 

Actually, I think he shot 269.  The difference is that wouldn't be so much under par.  That matters to the USGA.  But my main point was that they would toughen up the course, to make the winning score a lot higher.  Under 270 is not all that unusual at Riviera.  I think winners have shat that about half the time this century. 

[Steven Blake]

I believe in the 1984 PGA Championship at Rivera Jack Nicklaus whiffed a shot out of the rough coming down the stretch on Sunday because the rough was so penal. I would guess that any championship played in the summer months would have the same difficult rough which I am not opposed too as long as they do not narrow the fairways. Point being that I think the course would not need to be modified much to host a major IMHO.

[Matthew Petersen]

Does the green need a little more protection? I would much rather see a difficult bunker added rather than trying to add yardage and making it like every other long par 5. JMO

I think it's a wonderful green with lots of different options that really change how the hole is played, depending on the skill of the player, firmness of the course, and of course which side of the bunker the hole is on.

[Lyndell Young]

Matthew I agree but they were hitting with mid irons.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,

I couldn't disagree more.

#. 1 is a wonderful opening hole for the membership.

No need to grow the rough or narrow the fairways

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel,

I couldn't disagree more.

#. 1 is a wonderful opening hole for the membership.

No need to grow the rough or narrow the fairways

Pat, I agree its a good (not great) opening hole for the membership.  If you read my original post, it specifically says should the hole be changed for the tournament.  I played there a few weeks ago and I made birdie on #1 and I suck.

For the pros, hitting 3 wood (many missing the fairway, I'm hesitant to call it rough) and then 8 iron into a par 5 to yield that many eagles and birdies is not a challenge for the pros.  It's like playing the 1st inning of a baseball game with a fungo bat.

[Jason Topp]

Is it actually a good hole for the membership?  The fairway looks about half as wide as one would otherwise expect and it has an unnatural angular look.

[John Kavanaugh]

Please, the picture above is a perfect example of how to intentionally make a great course look bad. How many guys hit 8 irons anyway?  I believe the leader on Sunday hit 3 iron.

Again, these guys live their lives being measured by how many under par they are for a day and for the tournament.  If you don't think that it matters then I have to question if you have ever been measured by any standard in your life.  Everyone has comfort zones and comfort zones change as the color next to your name goes from black to red.

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