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Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
RTJ Jr., Rees, Weiskopf and Fazio on ANGC (1993)
« on: February 16, 2014, 11:25:36 AM »
Perhaps this belongs in the "Why the Hate" thread (which I would retitle "Why the Lack of Trust"), but this 1993 article on Augusta National contains some little gems from some of the biggest names in the design business. 

I can understand Tiger-proofing, but Woosie-proofing is another thing all together.





Taken from the April 11, 1993 Eugene Register-Guard.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: RTJ Jr., Rees, Weiskopf and Fazio on ANGC (1993)
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 12:39:01 PM »
Some great quotes in there.

Note that Weiskopf's only suggestion was to restore the 13th green and eliminate the swale behind it.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ Jr., Rees, Weiskopf and Fazio on ANGC (1993)
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2014, 01:13:12 PM »
Rees Jones states, "I wouldn't be averse to letting the rough grow here.  Without any rough, they just take out their driver.  Rough would force them to make a choice.  Make them think about hitting a 3-wood or 1 iron on tees."

So, does Rees have any concept of playing angles and strategy Alister MacKenzie tried to incorporate into ANGC?  Hasn't the last handful of years shown the "rough" concept has done nothing more than save bad drives from bounding off further into trouble and nothing to deter players from using driver?

Ken

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ Jr., Rees, Weiskopf and Fazio on ANGC (1993)
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2014, 01:15:24 PM »
Weiskoph did OK with his quote, but then the members were more likely to listen to the guy with 5 green coats.

Fazio, well he got his way with lots more stupid trees in many places-when as it turns out the best way to handle that hole was to move the tee back-which they did-sadly they did the stupid tree thing too
Rees predicted the future with the second cut, but got the height of cut wrong ;D ;D I think he may have missed the whole strategy memo at ANGC
RTJ's juniors comments are just out to lunch-God forbid there be an awkward hole, with an awkward approach
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ Jr., Rees, Weiskopf and Fazio on ANGC (1993)
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2014, 01:24:28 PM »
Classic stuff.

The older I get, the more I realise just how many confident idiots rule the world.  ::)
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Keith Grande

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ Jr., Rees, Weiskopf and Fazio on ANGC (1993)
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 02:18:08 PM »
Regarding RTJ's comments on the ninth hole, another example of the professional game aiming to eliminate quirk?
Is that approach shot truly a "luck" shot with the golfer having no control over the outcome?

Peter Pallotta

Re: RTJ Jr., Rees, Weiskopf and Fazio on ANGC (1993)
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 02:27:04 PM »
Sven - I asked in a recent thread about "what changed" at Augusta - in '65 Jack broke Hogan's tournament record, and was hitting mid iron 2nds into the par 5s. But besides a little tinkering, even 30 years later the course still played at basically the same length as it did in '65. In answer to my question, folks noted (probably rightly) that JN and his score had been seen as an outlier, and not indicative and so didn't lead to big changes; that the last decade of equipment advances has done more to increase distance than did all the advances from all previous decades combined; that Tiger, unlike Jack, was not an outlier in that sense, i.e. almost everyone is now hitting iron 2nds into the Par 5s. As I say, those are probably correct answers to what's changed -- but the article references a big one. Did you notice how, seemingly out of the blue and almost unconsciously even, Dave Anderson moves from the blather of the architects about continual change at Augusta to writing "but to defend par at Augusta National from graphite shafts and other equipment improvements..." Wait - where did THAT idea come from? (Even the architects quoted in the piece don't raise it, at least not overtly). Anderson writes it so confidently and matter-of-factly, AS IF Augusta had clearly cared about and been definitely trying to "defend par" for a long long time, but suddenly now had its hands full because of the new technology. But is that in any way true? Did they fret when Hogan shattered par by a big margin in the 50s, or when Jack shattered Hogan's record and par in the 60s? I've never seen anything that would suggest that - never seen anything that would suggest that Augusta was about defending par. And yet, there we  are in the mid 90s, with a top flight writer at a top flight paper "framing" the whole issue and his whole article and all the changes to come based on this, what can I call it, "made up history" of the Masters trying to defend par. And in one stroke, he suddenly seems to have given permission to RTJ and Rees and Fazio etc to join in and agree and rationalize any changes they wanted -- "well, you know, we HAVE to defend par against today's best players".  No one ever cared before, and then they did? What changed? Was it Hord Hardin, or Jack Stephens or Hootie Johnson? Because from what i can tell, even Cliff Roberts -- who seemed concerned just about EVERYTHING else -- wasn't concerned about 'defending par'.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 02:33:52 PM by PPallotta »

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ Jr., Rees, Weiskopf and Fazio on ANGC (1993)
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 02:30:48 PM »
Peter:

Here's my thread on the history of the changes to the course:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51383.0.html

Perhaps some of your answers lie therein.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: RTJ Jr., Rees, Weiskopf and Fazio on ANGC (1993)
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2014, 03:21:03 PM »
Some great quotes in there.

Note that Weiskopf's only suggestion was to restore the 13th green and eliminate the swale behind it.

Tom,

I wonder if Weiskopf was misquoted as he mentions the swale IN the 13th green.
Is it possible he was refering to the plateau in the green and not the swale behind the green ?

Ken,

"angles" at ANGC are pretty close to irrelevant when guys are hitting 8 irons 180 yards and drivers 300 yards.

Hi tech has removed much of the intended strategy which is why I always hoped that ANGC would develop a tournament ball.

Keith,

It was RTJ Jr, not RTJ.

Jeff,

What would have been interesting would have been if ANGC was land locked and they couldn't have lengthened the course.
I wonder if that would have prompted a Masters "tournament" ball ?
How would they have compensated for increased distance without being able to lengthen the course ?



jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ Jr., Rees, Weiskopf and Fazio on ANGC (1993)
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2014, 03:53:38 PM »
Well Pat, the one hole that WAS landlocked was 13, where they bought 40 yards straight back into the right rough on 9 at Augusta CC ;D ;D

Adding length works at Augusta because of the scale of the place-other places not so much.
Despite the ball curving LESS, players still hit it miles off line (see tiger ;D), and that is magnified by longer distances the ball travels
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: RTJ Jr., Rees, Weiskopf and Fazio on ANGC (1993)
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2014, 04:08:42 PM »

Well Pat, the one hole that WAS landlocked was 13, where they bought 40 yards straight back into the right rough on 9 at Augusta CC ;D ;D

Jeff,

Didn't they also buy the land behind # 2 tee in order to lengthen the hole


Adding length works at Augusta because of the scale of the place-other places not so much.

Despite the ball curving LESS, players still hit it miles off line (see tiger ;D), and that is magnified by longer distances the ball travels

Yes, but when there aren't many trees to impede recovery why wouldn't 't you want to bomb it ?


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ Jr., Rees, Weiskopf and Fazio on ANGC (1993)
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2014, 04:15:27 PM »
Pat, behind #2 tee was all their property
you could go 3 hundred yards back and still be on their property on that line, but it was parking lot, now practice area/spectator entrance area
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey