Would the greens at Riviera be better?

[jeffwarne]

if they were slower.
because they sure don't roll smoothly or predictably.
and they're better than usual due to the firmness.
Most players are saying it's in good shape, but relatively speaking I think
Certainly looks fantastic

If they were slower you could at least ram them in, but would they be more bumpy?

amazing we can grow perfect grass with saltwater, yet can't grow smooth grass in an ideal southern CAL climate


and I am anything but a conditioning freak.
 It's a shame on one of the best courses they play all year

If you planted hybrid bermuda would the poa just take over?

[BCowan]

Are they pushup greens?  Would cutting down all the trees surrounding the green help them out drastically?  Why don't they go with mini verde or Champion?  Can the trees be cut down with Cali EPA laws?  Do you own your property?  Deep core Aeration=soil profile change? 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Are they pushup greens?  Would cutting down all the trees surrounding the green help them out drastically?  Why don't they go with mini verde or Champion?  Can the trees be cut down with Cali EPA laws?  Do you own your property?  Deep core Aeration=soil profile change? 

It's really not warm enough to have a UD on the putting surfaces. Cutting tree down wouldn't really help the poa, eight. It's a function on the grass and this time of year. Pure bent like LACC has since the renovation would be the way to go if they chose to do something.

[jeffwarne]

Anthony,
I'm no agronomist, and clearly if they could grow bermuda, they would've but is it a matter of temperature?
or some thing else?
poa taking over or low humidity?

average low is above 50 in all but 2-3 months-and the lowest average low is like 47.
Geez they grow it in North Carolina and Tennessee and it's damn sure colder there-though hotter in summer.
Is it the hot weather (90+) that really gets it going to be able to survive the cold winters?

always trying to learn

[BCowan]

I meant if they went to another surface more light/circulation would help to stop the poa from creeping into new surface.  

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

The problem with bermuda in southern California is it doesn't get hot enough for very many months for it to grow aggressively, and the foggy / overcast days in the summer don't give it enough sunlight.  Plus there would be a lot of shade problems with bermuda at Riviera.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jeff:

The problem with bermuda in southern California is it doesn't get hot enough for very many months for it to grow aggressively, and the foggy / overcast days in the summer don't give it enough sunlight.  Plus there would be a lot of shade problems with bermuda at Riviera.

Jeff,
  TD hit it on the head. It's not warm enough, long enough, you need to have a few months of HOT to grow it in,a low it to be managed andbe able to survive to cooler months like in the Carolina's. Overcast days are extremely hard on UDs. Most need 5-6 hours of sunlight a day.

[jeffwarne]

Not hot enough long enough is what I figured.
Nice problem to have-other than for growing greens

back to the original question.
Would they putt better if they were slower so you could ram them rather than watching them gently bobble away from the hole at the current speed?
Can't be good for the confidence and I suspect that's one reason why the weak field.
such a good golf course

[BHoover]

Greens seem just fine to me. I see players holing putts.

Why so much grumbling about slowing down greens?

[BCowan]

Brian

   Inside 5 feet, greens are a lot of luck! 

How about chewy, fescue, bent greens? 

[BHoover]

I repeat my statement---the greens seem fine to me.

[Greg Chambers]

I would suspect that the greens are held back a bit from how fast they could get...especially considering how dry and warm it's been in SoCal this winter.  The issue with choosing grass types...as it's always been...is that they're so close to he coast...you never know what you're going to get...I think they do a pretty good job with the poa that they have...

[DMoriarty]

Poa can get bumpy, but quite a few of the putts they grouse about are just plain misreads.  IMO, the players have a very hard time putting on greens with so much contour.  I didn't attend this year, but from attending it past years it is really surprising how often these guys seem completely baffled by even the shortest putts there, and how often they misread and miss hit them.  Four and five foot putts there are very difficult, and it takes the pros out of their comfort zone. They can blame the bumps, but well struck putts would go in.   

A few of the putts they showed on t.v. that did actually get bounced around a bit were straight down hill where gravity is providing most of the momentum, and I guess it doesn't bother me that they don't always get the purest of rolls after having left themselves in such spots.

[Greg Chambers]

spot on, D

[Anthony_Nysse]

The greens are fine. In fact, I'd say that they have been the best they have been in years, same for Pebble last week. The dryier weather has helped with the poa.

 These tour pro complain about everything.

 Fescue would never work at Riv. They're not going to be anyone's guinea pig. Their competition and probably membership wouldn't dare go for it. We have a hard enough time getting bentrass courses to use a UD. There is a feather in the cap to have bent. Again, the greens are fine and there is no expense spare in there year round preparation.

[jeffwarne]

The greens do look the best they've been in years
and I actually haven't heard any pros grouse about the greens this year
but I've watched a lot of funny rolls.

I agree with Dave M in general, but was just curious with the advances in agronomy, and the money spent there why they couldn't get putting surfaces to match the quality of the course
Dave's also right about pros suffering at reading greens with contour
which is why I'm often singing the praises of slower greens-so that they can have ample TILT for strategy, and contour for interest.
It's not that I like to play or watch slow putts-Ilike fast putts---but only when they are created by the position the player left himself in.
i.e. there should be a SIGNIFICANT difference in speed from a downhill putt to an uphill putt.
Which is one reason I do like the design at Riviera-the tilt and contour is greater than most vanilla fast greens on tour

[Anthony_Nysse]

The greens do look the best they've been in years
and I actually haven't heard any pros grouse about the greens this year
but I've watched a lot of funny rolls.

Unfortunately, the Golf Channel did a little segment, interviewed 4-5 Pros outlining the "bumpy" greens. Steve Flesh also has made numerous comments this week. If it's poa or grain, these guys cry. Too bad because they play courses that are conditioned at their peak year round.

[BCowan]

What bothers me with poa, is that typically you have to keep greens softer and quicker so they aren't as bumpy, is that correct?  I love firm greens that are slower with undulations.  Poa seems to be the last grass to achieve this.  Anthony I actually am starting to prefer UD over bent due to the consistent firmness it provides.  I agree most the general public love fast and faster with bent grass maint softly.  Didn't the Cali sand based greens do very well on the South course at Torrey?  Are Riviera's push up greens?

[Joel_Stewart]

I spent the day at Riv yesterday and thought the course was in the best condition I have seen.  The greens are fast but looked fair.  I saw Kenny Knox 4 putt the 18th from 20 feet but it was a misread.

At this point the winning score is going to be double digits under par so I don't see any reason to change.  Considering there is virtually no rough there has to be something to challenge these players. 

[Lyndell Young]

Tony since we are talking about bent/poa what happened to the round up ready bent idea they were working on years ago.

[Bill_McBride]

I spent the day at Riv yesterday and thought the course was in the best condition I have seen.  The greens are fast but looked fair.  I saw Kenny Knox 4 putt the 18th from 20 feet but it was a misread.

At this point the winning score is going to be double digits under par so I don't see any reason to change.  Considering there is virtually no rough there has to be something to challenge these players. 

Did he misread all three putts before the fourth went in?   

I remember putting on poa-infested bent greens the thirteen years I lived in Northern Virginia.   When the days began to warm up, you could practically watch the stuff grow, and the greens were definitely bumpier in the afternoons.   Is that what's happening at Riviera?