[Jim_Kennedy]

p.s. The Ribault course was a Ross and was later called Fort George Island GC.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bill, Rees and Jim:

Appreciate the updates.

The old thread on Ribault is fascinating, and provides a great mental picture of what life was like in many of these Florida towns back in the '20's.  There's a great contrast between the likes of a Ribault Club which was built essentially as a winter retreat for the wealthy, and a small company town course like Clewiston, built by US Sugar for the use of its employees.

Reposting the list of mysteries with those that have been identified removed:

Scenic Highlands GC (Avon Park) - 9 holes, 3,100 yards
Webber College (Babson Park)
Captiva Hotel GC (Captiva)
Chipley CC (Chipley) - 2,800 yards
Ponce de Leon Springs GC or Ponce Spring GC (De Leon Springs) - 9 holes, 3,050 yards
Enterprise Municpal GC (Enterprise) - 9 holes, 3,000 yards
Green Ball GC (Fernandina) - 9 holes
West Fort Myers Club (Fort Myers) - 9 holes
Fort Pierce Municipal GC (Fort Pierce) - 3,090 yards
Avalon CC (Howey) - 7,000 yards
Inverness CC (Inverness) - 9 holes, 3,215 yards
Cedar Hills CC (Jacksonville) - 6,401 yards
Ribault Club (Jacksonville/Fort George Island)
Jacksonville Beach CC (Jacksonville Beach) - 3,142 yards
Key West CC (Key West) - 9 holes, 3,500 yards
Palmetto GC (Kissimmee) - 3,020 yards
Colonial GC (Kissimmee) - 3,101 yards
Lakeview CC (Lake City) - 9 holes, 3,100 yards
Leesburg Municipal GC (Leesburg) - 9 holes, 3,300 yards
St. Andrews Bay GC (Lynnhaven/Panama City) - 18 holes, 6,710 yards
Golf Park CC (Miami) - 6,000 yards
Olympia GC (Olympia) - 18 holes, 6,340 yards
Putnam County G&CC (Palatka) - 9 holes, 2,500 yards
Belvedere CC (Palm Beach) - 6,000 yards
Bunkers Cove CC (Panama City) - 3,803 yards
Plant City G&CC (Plant City) - 9 holes, 3,305 yards
Riviera CC (St. Petersburg) - 18 holes
Bright Water Club (St. Petersburg) - 9 holes, 3,050 yards
Siesta Key GC (Sarasota) - 9 holes, 3,100 yards
Lake Sebring G&CC (Sebring) - 9 holes, 3,500 yards
Airport GC (Tampa) - 3,105 yards
Indian River GC (Titusville) - 9 holes, 3,500 yards
Lake Avalon CC (Winter Garden) - 6,558 yards

[Bill_McBride]

Has anyone else played the course at South Seas Plantation on Captiva Island, here shown as the Captiva Hotel course?

I think it's been redone, but was fun when I played it in the early '80's.    There were some stout holes along the beach that were greatly affected by the typically brisk winds, but the highlight of the nine holes was the 85-yard par 3 pitch across the yacht harbor, close to some moored boats!

[Sven Nilsen]

Has anyone else played the course at South Seas Plantation on Captiva Island, here shown as the Captiva Hotel course?

I think it's been redone, but was fun when I played it in the early '80's.    There were some stout holes along the beach that were greatly affected by the typically brisk winds, but the highlight of the nine holes was the 85-yard par 3 pitch across the yacht harbor, close to some moored boats!

Bill:

Not sure if the course you played is the same course that was in existence back in the '20's.  The notes for South Seas I've seen note it was built in the '70's.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

One of the courses noted above is Riviera CC, which is described in the article below from the March 6, 1924 edition of The St. Petersburg Times.

The Donald Ross Society has a listing for a Riviera CC, but identifies the course as being in Coral Gables, not St. Petersburg.  That course appears to also have been known as the South Course of the Miami Biltmore.  The DRS does not have any listings for a Ross course in St. Petersburg.

The Riviera in St. Petersburg would appear to have actually been built, as it appears in the 1927 list as an 18 holer.  Not sure if the second course referred to in the article did make it past the conception phase.

Perhaps the course became known by a different name, but from the sounds of it this is another old Ross that has slipped through the cracks.

[Thomas Dai]

A collection of vintage postcards:

Belleair

What an amazing green. Is it still in existence and if so what does it look like now?

With the steps at the front maybe it should be in the other thread as well - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57809.0.htmlatb

atb

[Jim_Kennedy]

This is the area in St.Pete , now called Bayou Grande, that was AKA Papy's Bayou 

http://goo.gl/maps/hUJlY

[Sven Nilsen]

Jim:

The same paper had a second piece right next to the article I posted above:

[DMoriarty]

Sven. Great thread.  I know very little about Florida golf so it is a very interesting read. 

As for those last two articles, they seem more like advertisements, don't they?  Were the placed more like advertisements or articles?   

[Sven Nilsen]

David:

Definitely ads.  Here's a link to the articles on Google News, which show the page was "bought" by E.M. Elliott and Associates, Fiscal Agents Riviera Country Club: 

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=19240306&id=2DQxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ukwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5700,7069516

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

A few more postcards:

Boca Raton:



Indian HIlls:



Miami Biltmore:



Ormond Beach:



Palm Beach:

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's a April 7, 1929 article from The Palm Beach Post discussing Ross and Seminole (the article also Ross' involvement with Palm Beach CC (1917) and Gulf Stream GC (1923)):

[Sven Nilsen]

A few old photos, just to add some "color."

Coral Gables (from Golf In Florida:  1886-1950):



The 4th Tee at St. Augustine:



Winter Park:

[Bill_McBride]

Has anyone else played the course at South Seas Plantation on Captiva Island, here shown as the Captiva Hotel course?

I think it's been redone, but was fun when I played it in the early '80's.    There were some stout holes along the beach that were greatly affected by the typically brisk winds, but the highlight of the nine holes was the 85-yard par 3 pitch across the yacht harbor, close to some moored boats!

Bill:

Not sure if the course you played is the same course that was in existence back in the '20's.  The notes for South Seas I've seen note it was built in the '70's.

Sven

It must have played over the same ground, it's not a big island!

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's another article on Langford this time from the March 25, 1925 edition of the Palm Beach Daily News.  There's a wealth of information on his work contained in this piece, which I'll try to lay out piece by piece:

1.  The article starts by discussing "Key West Country Club," which is certainly the Key West Municipal Course.  My guess is that the 1927 list in the first post of this thread has two listing for the same course, one noted as 9 holes (Key West CC) and the other as 18 (Key West Municipal).  The amount of work needed to create the Key West course sounds staggering, yet it sounds like L&M were well versed in these types of construction methods, including their work at Hialeah and at Lake Worth.

2.  The article notes a Col. Pease, an engineer, who was designated the chief engineer for the firm of Langford & Moreau.  Interesting news, as I always thought this was Moreau's role.

3.  Lake Worth is noted as having been designed but not yet built. 

4.  Nine holes of the St. Lucie [River] Course were opened in January with the second nine graded but not finished.

5.  Kelsey City has nine holes finished.

6.  Other courses designed and built by Langford - Miami Municipal at Hialeah, temporary nine holes at Coral Gables, four others to be built (three 18 holers and two nine holers one of which being Miami Biltmore which is nearly complete, one of which will be the Shriners course).  I assume the reference to four others are courses in or around Miami, which would have included Granada.

7.  Langford made the original survey for the Palm Beach CC in 1912, but was unable to complete the course, which turned into a Ross design.  This is the earliest reference to Langford's design work I have seen.

8.  In 1913 he designed and built the Miami Beach course for Carl Fisher and designed the Atlantic Beach course (Jacksonville) which was not built.  This would make Miami Beach the first course built by Langford.

9.  The article states West Palm Beach CC was designed by Langford, but his plans were not carried out.  If this is true, then whose design was used?  This article runs contrary to information noted in the Aug. 29, 1925 Palm Beach Post article which attributes West Palm Beach to Langford.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pensacola Country Club is on the list.  Founded in 1902, it's the oldest private club in the state.   Members laid out the first nine.  A second nine was built in 1925 and integrated with a remodeled first nine.  When I joined in 1995, I thought the course might have been designed by Donald Ross as the greens were typical bumped up smallish greens best approached from the proper angles.  Ross was actually traveling back and forth between Jacksonville and Mobile, AL, through Pensacola while he designed the CC of Mobile.   Brad Klein, Ross expert historian, says no record.  I suspect that Pensacola members may have taken the 50-mile train ride to Mobile to observe what Ross had done there, and emulated the concepts back at home. 

It's all moot today as we have a new course built by Jerry Pate and lead designer after Hurricane Ivan in 2004.  The course is more in the Raynor style, with flat bottom grass faced bunkers and a Reverse Redan and a stout Cape tee shot with Punchbowl green. 

For more on the new PCC, you can check out my profile in the "In My Opinion" section. 

Bill, is it possible Langford could have been involved with PCC since he did work in Niceville? I guess for that matter Ross did work in Panama City though.

There's a strong link between Langford and the Pensacola area that I haven't seen mentioned before.  Ellis Knowles was the intercollegiate champion during his time at Yale (he graduated in 1907), and would have overlapped with Langford.  Knowles made Pensacola CC his home course for a number of years.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sven,
"Kelsey City" is known today as Lake Park. The course is thought to be North Palm Beach CC.

http://www.pbchistoryonline.org/page/kelsey-city-lake-park

http://www.historicpalmbeach.com/tag/kelsey-city/

http://www.lakeparkflorida.gov/content/lake-park-history

[Sven Nilsen]

Jim:

I have North Palm Beach/Palm Beach Winter Club as a Raynor/Banks built in 1927/28 as an 18 hole course.  The articles in this thread that mention Kelsey City suggest a date around 1925 and have it as a 9 holer.  They also clearly note Langford as the designer.

Thinking the Kelsey City course may have been south of North Palm Beach in what is now known as Lake Park.

Sven

[Jim_Kennedy]

Then you mean this one, at first st. on the lake?
http://tinyurl.com/ljrlzdl

[Sven Nilsen]

Wow.

Always knew you were the right guy for the job.  Good find.

The 1927 date for Winter Club is earlier than Bahto's dates for the course.  Will try to dig into that a bit more.

Let me know if you get anything on Langford's work in 1912 and 1913.  That Miami Beach GC bit above is fascinating (MacWood had it as a Willie Park, which I don't think is accurate).

Sven

Edit to copy in the Ad in Jim's link:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

What surprises me is the number of couses in Florida prior to the Depression.

It's far more than I imagined.

Interesting to see how golf developed in Florida in the 20 years between NGLA in 1907 and 1927

[Jim_Kennedy]

By the descriptions given I reckon this is the area where the course was built with "1st" street being US Rt. 1, the Earman canal is the narrow body of water ("A") to the north, and the lake to the east.  

http://goo.gl/maps/hEzJp

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's a March 6, 1958 article from The Miami News which discusses the courses in existence 50 years prior.

They are:

Belle-air GC (Belleair) - 9 holes built in 1899 by J. Dunn or Col. Gillespie (not sure when Gillespie worked here, if he did), Ross came in 1915 to expand this course and build a new course.
Deland CC (Deland) - aka College Arms GC, an 18 hole hotel course built in 1905, architect unknown.
Stafford GC - a new one for me, I have no record of any course by this name.
Hibernia GC (Hibernia) - a private club owned by a Mrs. F. Brown, built prior to 1908, architect unknown.
Atlantic Beach GC (Atlantic Beach) - The first record I have for Atlantic Beach is Tillinghast's work in 1915.
Florida CC (Jacksonville) - 9 holes in 1897, had 18 holes some time before 1901, club changed locations around 1910, Ross built a new course in 1922.
Kissimmee GC (Kissimmee) - built in 1898 by J. Gillespie and F. Brown.
Magnolia Springs GC (Magnolia Springs) - 9 holes built by O. Seavey (although the Findlay lists claim this is his work).
Royal Palm GC (Miami) - built by an unknown architect in 1908.
Ocala Heights GC (Ocala) - built in 1898, architect unknown.
Orlando CC (Orlando) - I have this club dating back to 1910 as a 9 holer with an unknown architect.  Both Ross and Bendelow claim the added 9 holes around 1918.
Ormond GC (Ormond) - laid out in 1897 by Findlay, Travis consulted in 1912, an additional 9 holes was added before 1916.
Palm Beach GC (Palm Beach) - course may predate 1900, both Findlay and A. Fenn are named as original architects.
Pensacola CC (Pensacola) - built by members as a 9 holer in 1902.
Sarasota GC (Sarasota) - the first course was built by Col. Gillespie in 1886, a subsequent 9 hole course in 1905 with Ross building a new course in the 1920's.
Fort Marion GC (St. Augustine) - probably aka St. Augustine CC, which was built in 1897 by A. Findlay.
St. Augustine GC (St. Augustine) - first course built in 1895 by C. Byrne, new 9 holes built in 1900 by an unknown architect.
Tampa Bay Hotel GC (Tampa) - built in 1898 by J. Gillespie, sources have S. and T. Dunn working on the course in 1899.
Winter Park GC (Winter Park) - 9 hole hotel course by J. Dunn in 1900.

Other courses that predated 1908 that may have been omitted from this list:

Clarendon GC (Daytona Beach) - a hotel course built in 1906, architect unknown.
Cumberland Island GC (Cumberland Island) - built prior to 1901, a private course owned by W.C. Carnegie at Dungenes.
Gables GC (location unknown) - 9 holes built by J. Dunn in 1898.
Miami Golf Links (Miami) - 9 holes by A. Findlay in 1897, did this become Royal Palms?
Naples GC (Naples) - course built by J. Gillespie.
OceanTrails GC (Palm Beach) - dates to 1896.
Oceanside G&CC (Ormond Beach) - a 1907 A. Findlay 9 holer.
Orlando Public Links (Orlando) - a 6 hole public course built prior to 1900.
Tallahassee GC (Tallahassee) - first course was a few holes on private land, moved to new site in 1915.

[Sven Nilsen]

Next, a 1916 article from Motor Travel that goes into a bit of depth on the early development of golf in the State of Florida:

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sven,

Here's an interesting one - described as "The Chicago Country Club is located on a peninsula pointing out into Choctawhatchee Bay, with a golf course that twists and winds over a series of hills separated by two lakes".

It was in Valparaiso, and the peninsula has a "Chicago Ave.

http://goo.gl/maps/n6jFq
 
...and a link to an article from 1927 about the club
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=zsxPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mVQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6559%2C3451487

...which was started by a realtor named James Plew
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=laMpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YOwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6718%2C3951387

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=laMpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YOwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6718%2C3951387

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