The Bunkers at Riviera

[John Kavanaugh]

Have never looked better. The entire course looks as fine as I have ever seen. Maybe it's the drought, maybe it is proper aging but Fazio is beginning to provide evidence that he knows exactly what he is doing.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Are you saying you prefer the current look to the Geo. Thomas look / design (different bunker style, fewer trees) or just that it looks better than Fazio / Marzolf's early efforts?

[John Kavanaugh]

Are you saying you prefer the current look to the Geo. Thomas look / design (different bunker style, fewer trees) or just that it looks better than Fazio / Marzolf's early efforts?

Yes, after a few holes of observation I will go so far to say that Riviera has every right to be considered the best course in the world. The combination of low rough, fast greens and modern bunkers is hitting on all cylinders. Thomas still gets credit for the design but the maintenance meld today appears near perfect.  Even the dry and golden brown barranca looks and is playing amazing.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I would like to see fewer eucalypts and restoration of those Thomas bunkers. Also, I find the contrast between brown barranca and green green grass somewhat jarring. Would like to see a little more tawny in the grass but you're right to focus on how it plays. Maybe the green is due the the haar /marine layer? We can agree a US Open would be great there. Or even a do over PGA. 1995 was not representative.

Have the greens lost contour over the decades? Looks like it from some of the old pics floating around out there.

[Bill_McBride]

John, are you there now?   That's a fun tournament if you have the right ticket.  I spent Sunday there a couple of years ago.  Spent two hours by the tenth green, two hours wandering the course, and the last hour on the terrace above the home green with free, unlimited booze and food served by comely wenches.  At least my wife thought they were comely, I was too busy watching the golf to notice. 

The most fun I had was watching Tommy Armour IV make 8 from the kikuyu-choked barranca in front of the eighth green.   

Have I mentioned how much I detest kikuyu?

[John Kavanaugh]

No I'm not there now. I just love how the bunker edges have aged. It appears to be similar to what evolved at Merion.

[John McCarthy]

Bill:  I am green.  Only caught three minutes with the sun saying adios over the Pacific from the blimp, but the  thought of having a cocktail in the sun warms this snow crippled man.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:  I am green.  Only caught three minutes with the sun saying adios over the Pacific from the blimp, but the  thought of having a cocktail in the sun warms this snow crippled man.

That was three or four years ago but I still have good memories!

[Joel_Stewart]

Can't say I agree on the bunkers.  Fazio has interpreted Thomas poorly. 

Regarding the Eucs, I'm told the 13th will undergo a transformation fairly soon.  The trees on the left will be removed and the barranca restored.  Fingers crossed.

I'll be there tomorrow if anyone wants to meet around noon.

[DMoriarty]

I agree with Joel.

[Sean McCue]

Can't say I agree on the bunkers.  Fazio has interpreted Thomas poorly. 

Regarding the Eucs, I'm told the 13th will undergo a transformation fairly soon.  The trees on the left will be removed and the barranca restored.  Fingers crossed.

I'll be there tomorrow if anyone wants to meet around noon.

let's hope this turns out better than the disaster of a restoration on #8

[DMoriarty]

let's hope this turns out better than the disaster of a restoration on #8

You don't like the skateboard park shaping in the barranca?   I am still holding out hope they will pave it over and use it in the X-Games.

[Thomas Dai]

10th hole - are there 2 greens? And, if so what % of the time are each used?
atb

[Jaeger Kovich]

10th hole - are there 2 greens? And, if so what % of the time are each used?
atb

There is a temp green at #10 and #6, they use for outtings to help with wear problems.

[Ian Andrew]

I for one prefer the "evolved" bunkers that  were left alone by Coore and Crenshaw and others before before Fazio and Co. began to tinker.
I saw the place a long time ago and it was better than it is now.
It was some of the best bunkering I have ever seen.

Anything Fazio and Co. have touched, they have made less interesting by "organizing" them into shapes.

[Terry Lavin]

I'm with Joel on this one too. I love the Riv but it could be visually improver with bunker work and tree removal.

[John Kavanaugh]

If you look at the very earliest pictures of Riviera you will see that trees were planted and staked by Thomas. I do believe that he knew they would grow. It just doesn't get better than the smell of eucalyptus after a rain.

[Tony_Muldoon]

If you look at the very earliest pictures of Riviera you will see that trees were planted and staked by Thomas. I do believe that he knew they would grow. It just doesn't get better than the smell of eucalyptus after a rain.

I don't know how it works over there John, but over here a road builder would be familiar with Landscaping issues.   Typically you plant more trees than you need: to get a faster impact, to allow for failure and to allow you to thin out later when they grow.   I too believe Thomas knew trees would grow and that he also knew they need managing. He was keen rose grower too, I believe?

[Thomas Dai]

10th hole - are there 2 greens? And, if so what % of the time are each used?
atb

There is a temp green at #10 and #6, they use for outtings to help with wear problems.

Thanks Jaeger
atb

[Peter Pallotta]

I think JK's point about trees and the original architectural intent is a valid one and not to be easily dismissed; and I think Tony's response is as close to a meaningful rebuttal as I've yet read around here -- and yet the idea that Thomas purposely over-planted with the assumption/expectation of an intelligently guided tree-management program decades in the future seems, well, unrealistic.

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Which of the bunkers are you talking about? 

It's been 3-4 years since I was there, but as of my last visit, few of the key bunkers around the greens had been changed ... they had only rebuilt bunkers where they were moving the fairway bunkers, and most of those still stuck out like a sore thumb [#8, #15, #17].  Whether that's on Tom Fazio's crew, or the contractor, is a matter of opinion. 

I think a few of the newer bunkers have been rebuilt again so they are more in scale ... which is not what most people would call "aging".

P.S.  The "original architectural intent" of Riviera was to have bigger greens and less flashy bunkers.  Photos from the 1950's are clear that the bunkers were not as deep or as sexy back then, and that the big lips have built up over many years of sand splash from play.  When the club embarked on this restoration project many years ago, they decided they did not want to go back to the true architectural intent, as far as the bunker styling was concerned, so most of this is a moot point.

[Mark Bourgeois]

John K, if you look at aerials dating to the course's opening, trees/sapling appeared on some holes, typically concentrated in certain areas. So what we see today - hole after hole of tree lined corridors - does not appear to be Thomas's work.

Regarding bunkering what is up with amazing NLE fwy bunker on 12? Did it block the fairway view? Was it a top-shot bunker?

And why was it removed? It was removed between 1947 & 1956. Who worked on the course during this period? Was Hogan somehow behind this?

EDIT: on closer inspection that bunker looked a decent distance from the tee and if so then a potentially thrilling carry.

[Bob_Huntley]

Can't say I agree on the bunkers.  Fazio has interpreted Thomas poorly. 

Regarding the Eucs, I'm told the 13th will undergo a transformation fairly soon.  The trees on the left will be removed and the barranca restored.  Fingers crossed.

I'll be there tomorrow if anyone wants to meet around noon.

let's hope this turns out better than the disaster of a restoration on #8

Sean,

As a former member some years ago, I agree with you on the restoration on #8. It is like painting a mustache on the Mona  Lisa.

[DMoriarty]

I think JK's point about trees and the original architectural intent is a valid one and not to be easily dismissed . . .

Peter, I think Mark has it right. There were patches of trees then, but not like now.  For example, Joel mentioned the trees to the left of the 13th fairway.  There were no trees there originally.

[Sean McCue]

Sean,

As a former member some years ago, I agree with you on the restoration on #8. It is like painting a mustache on the Mona  Lisa.
[/quote]

Bob,

As a former employee there in the early 90's (assist Super) the old #8 was quirky but I think a better hole. Sounds like they are trying to bring the barranca back in play on 13 let's hope they capture a more accurate feel of  what it was before the flood. What occurred on #8 is hard to look at and is so out of character with the rest of the course.  If they can get #13 right they should fix #8 and restore the barranca on #7 as well, #7 would be an all world tee shot once again.  Sad thing is they have no better person than Geoff to ensure the features are accurately restored and they haven't taken advantage of it. Case in point look at LACC's restoration work, blows away everything that Fazio attempted at Riviera.