News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
In Praise of Vanilla
« on: February 13, 2014, 03:17:59 PM »
According to the second annual survey of International Ice Cream Association member companies (which make and distribute an estimated 85% of the ice cream and frozen dessert products consumed in the U. S.) vanilla was ranked first for the second consecutive year.  

Can a creamery be great if it can't produce a great vanilla?

Can the same question be asked of golf course architects?

Has golf course architecture been Ben & Jerryized?

Who designed or is designing great vanilla golf courses?   I'll nominate Vernon Macan.

Favorite vanilla course?  I'm thinking Chechessee Creek.

Favorite vanilla hole?  Norman's 1st at Shark's Tooth comes to mind.

Bogey
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 03:25:38 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 03:28:39 PM »
Son, step away from the keyboard!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2014, 04:03:45 PM »
I heard someone say about East Lake in Atlanta, and I've always thought it was a very on point:

"It's vanilla ice cream, but it's like one of the best vanilla ice creams you'll ever have"

Peter Pallotta

Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2014, 05:38:54 PM »
GJ - ha, ha, I know you must-ve been waiting to use that one!

Bogey - of the top 100 type courses, I've always thought Garden City as vanilla flavoured, and indeed that's one of the main reasons it's so appealing to me. I don't know enough of Emmett's other work to know if he like vanilla. I've lost count of the number of courses that Sean Arble profiles that have something of a vanilla feeling, and there's not one that doesn't appeal to me.

(PS you were spot on re Prestbury)

Peter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2014, 05:50:49 PM »
Can a creamery be great if it can't produce a great vanilla?

Can the same question be asked of golf course architects?

First you've got to ask the question of golf course developers.  If nobody is ordering vanilla, it would just go to waste.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2014, 06:03:52 PM »
Problem is most vanilla is vanilla.  Vanilla is good for root beer floats or a la mode with apple pie or flourless chocolate cake.  I don't trust anyone who prefers vanilla over chocolate.  I never get a hankering for straight vanilla.  Hell, nowadays you have olive oil, jalapeno, sea salt, bacon, green tea, garlic, wasabi, etc...  Life is too short to order vanilla.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 06:17:00 PM by JTigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Peter Pallotta

Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2014, 06:15:53 PM »
JT - well, pralines and cream has an essentially vanilla base, albeit an enriched vanilla, and the pralines are like, what, subtly contoured greens...you know

TD - I wonder if the days of vanilla are now over for good, not only because developers don't order it but because any site basically flat enough to serve as a (potentially) vanilla course is going to be flat enough to build houses on, as long as there are people nearby. (And if there isn't a large population nearby, it will be flat enough for....well, nothing). 

Peter

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2014, 08:20:34 PM »
Without a majority acquiring a taste for vanilla at a young age , they would never try the more exotic flavors.  Vanilla is essential to the very existence of the game.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2014, 08:24:59 PM »
Without a majority acquiring a taste for vanilla at a young age , they would never try the more exotic flavors.  Vanilla is essential to the very existence of the game.

When we were kids, my mom almost always bought vanilla (instead of our favourites, chocolate or banana) because she said it was cheaper. When I got old enough to figure out that a tub of vanilla cost the same as a tub of chocolate, I asked her why she said it was cheaper. And she said: "Because you don't like it as much, so it lasts longer".

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2014, 08:30:35 PM »
Which flavor of vanilla are we talking about?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2014, 08:36:36 PM »
with vanilla bean specks...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2014, 09:02:00 PM »
Donald Ross invented the concept of vanilla bean specks, twice

In Pete Dye's attic, there's a portrait of him that looks more vanilla-ish with each passing year

Mike Young likes vanilla golf courses partly because they match his belt, and his shoes






Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2014, 09:13:25 PM »




[/quote]

Peter,
You are on a roll....
Earlier I had the little loafers.....now I have white shoes???  I'm actually getting into the Ricky Fowler look... ;D ;D

Very good Pete Dye statement...

Why did you delete your loafer post ?  Did someone think aesthete was a type of porn or something? ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom ORourke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2014, 09:33:30 PM »
Was Mike Stranz Rocky Road or Chunky Monkey? Coore and Crensahaw a gelato? Just a little smoother?

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2014, 12:27:15 AM »
Quote
Who designed or is designing great vanilla golf courses?

Vanilla was the original, first flavor.  The original courses were those like TOC.  The archies who design courses most like that today are the minimalists such as Doak, C&C etc. 

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2014, 08:55:27 AM »
I see neither Doak nor C & C (two of my favorites btw) as minimalists, much less vanilla-meisters.  If they were, Tumble Creek and Talking Stick South would not be left off most lists.  Nobody raves about either.  You gotta admit, Tom really cranked the homemade vanilla on 12 through 18 at Tumble Creek.  I need a taste of CommonGround and Dormie to test my hypothesis.

I bet both could make some mighty tasty vanilla, but then again nobody orders vanilla at their windows.    

Flynn's vanilla might be better than Macan's.  Ross is just too easy an answer.   

Bogey
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 09:40:44 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2014, 09:21:40 AM »
Quote
Who designed or is designing great vanilla golf courses?

Vanilla was the original, first flavor.  The original courses were those like TOC.  The archies who design courses most like that today are the minimalists such as Doak, C&C etc. 

Re TOC being vanilla - there are some big chunks of chocolate* in that vanilla. ;D

*Hell, strath, road etc.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2014, 09:30:44 AM »
Can anyone name a truly great Vanilla golf course?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2014, 09:34:54 AM »
I refuse to believe anyone is more qualified to answer nonsensical comparison questions than I.

Old Tom Morris is vanilla. The original. He didn’t add much art of his own but simply let the ingredients and the simple but brilliant flavor do the work. We look back on a lot of his work now as “quirky,” but in reality his “ingredients” were where the quirk lay. He simply used them and let them shine without adulteration. Modern players would say he’s too outside the paradigm to be vanilla, and insist that vanilla would be more boring. But believe me, if you could taste vanilla ice cream from 1870, you’d find it a little quirky too.

Doak, C&C, and their ilk take the principles inspired by Old Tom’s work, and the work of subsequent practitioners of vanilla (none greater than Donald Ross, who spent a whole career doing intuitive work with a simplicity of form and brilliance of function). Then they add dramatic flair to the vanilla base in the form of artful bunkering and eye-popping textures and features. The average taster doesn’t even notice the vanilla base anymore when they play these courses. The star becomes the mix-ins. The post-modern architect is a master of starting with a vanilla base and turning it into cookies & cream, cookie dough, whiskey pecan, or any number of other flavors that start with the same fundamental and critical platform.

Let’s remember too that, while a brilliant pure vanilla flavor can be a reflection of true mastery, it’s only a plurality of people who order it. If we’re being honest, most of the people whose favorite flavor is plain vanilla are flat out boring and unadventurous. There have been plenty of architects catering to their tastes over the last 30 or 40 years, sometimes by offering a plain vanilla and other times offering a vanilla with trans-fat loaded, lowbrow mix-ins. The practice of making plain vanilla is not dead, but the art nearly is. While the vanilla-makers of the 1800s did their work with attention to detail and a fundamental understanding of where the flavor’s strengths lay, the vanilla-makers of today are mostly churning out a crappy product for consumption by an audience that really doesn’t care. The vanilla-artist is nearly dead. But while he may roll over in his grave when he sees what has become of his flavor, he can rest easy knowing that a great many innovators still stand on his shoulders as they explore all new ways to create new marvels on a classic foundation.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2014, 09:52:37 AM »
In support of Michael's original post, I am repeating below a post I made on the "Hate" thread.


I think unique and original are overrated. It seems that many on this site dismiss courses that don't include some "unique" features and cringe at anything that seems repetitive (unless done by Raynor or CBM). Frankly, I appreciate good solid golf design, what I like to call "pure golf". (I guess you could call that vanilla.) If you are a member of a club in Georgia (for example), why would you care if one of the holes seems to repeat one the architect designed 20 states away, one that you are not likely to ever see?

I'm ok with unique, to a point, but if all we choose to praise are unique designs, we will wind up with a lot of weird architecture. I think we may have benefited from a few courses by Mike Strantz, but what if he had lived to designed 200 courses? I'm not so sure that would have been a good thing for golf. He might have even had to resort to repeating a hole or two, heaven forbid.

You can call be old-fashioned (which I accept as a compliment), but I assert that not everything new is good, nor is everything old necessarily bad.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2014, 09:54:28 AM »
Can anyone name a truly great Vanilla golf course?

The way I interpreted it, Sand Hills is nearly 100% vanilla. 

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2014, 09:56:09 AM »
Jim L,

Subtle, traditional and understated by no means have to be Vanilla, at least in the modern negative connotation sense.

Jim N,

We're arguing semantics about whether Vanilla is a pejorative or not.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2014, 05:26:43 AM »
In support of Michael's original post, I am repeating below a post I made on the "Hate" thread.


I think unique and original are overrated. It seems that many on this site dismiss courses that don't include some "unique" features and cringe at anything that seems repetitive (unless done by Raynor or CBM). Frankly, I appreciate good solid golf design, what I like to call "pure golf". (I guess you could call that vanilla.) If you are a member of a club in Georgia (for example), why would you care if one of the holes seems to repeat one the architect designed 20 states away, one that you are not likely to ever see?

I'm ok with unique, to a point, but if all we choose to praise are unique designs, we will wind up with a lot of weird architecture. I think we may have benefited from a few courses by Mike Strantz, but what if he had lived to designed 200 courses? I'm not so sure that would have been a good thing for golf. He might have even had to resort to repeating a hole or two, heaven forbid.

You can call be old-fashioned (which I accept as a compliment), but I assert that not everything new is good, nor is everything old necessarily bad.


First off, I don't think the vanilla anology works well with golf courses because I can't figure out what a vanilla course is.  My instincts say Ross and Colt, but they were two of the very best archies if the not the two best archies who have come along so far.  It seems demeaning to label thier work as vanilla even if folks believe theirs is the best vanilla on the planet.  Surely their best work can be counted among the best on the planet so why exactly should it be labelled as vanilla while CBM is chunky chocolate?  That doesn't make much sense to me.   

Jim

We have tons of pure golf courses on this planet and relatively very few courses which are original or unique or with original or unique holes/features.  To ask an archie not to try and think outside the box seems almost cruel.  If I were to build a course the biggest reason for me hiring an archie is for the creativity.  Whether or not that would result in anything unique is debatable because I don't really believe archies really are coming up with unique ideas, but it can certainly add some flair.  It is hard to over value unique or original when talking about artistic or engineered projects.  Sure, much of the time for many people, this stuff misses the mark, but once in a while we get wow moments and that to me is very important. 

Back to your first para and not caring about what is happening 20 miles away at another club.  I think you are essentially right.  Why do I care really care if I have "seen it before"?  On the other hand, if I have limited time and money, "seen it before" is a compelling argument to give it a miss in favour of something else - if you weren't all that impressed the first time round.  My go to course for this sort of thinking is Porthcawl. If that was all I knew, I would be happy.  Its a very good design, attractive and usually in good nick.  Yet, I get the impression that while Porthcawl stands alone on its site, I don't think the holes really place it apart or make it distinctively Porthcawl.  It does nag at me, but that is only from the PoV that I can play many other places.  If my options were very limited, its a different story. 

Ciao         
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Lyndell Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2014, 07:36:15 PM »
I for one wish Strantz was still here designing, his courses were inspiring to me. I mostly play golf to see something new,even if I've seen similar elsewhere.I think all designers take a little something from every course they play good or bad.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Praise of Vanilla
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2014, 07:39:50 PM »
Can anyone name a truly great Vanilla golf course?

Holston Hills would be my favorite vanilla....and that is meant as a compliment...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"