Of all the JN courses I have played or toured, very few have 30 yards wide fairways, maybe on a few holes, and IMHO, what is wrong with a few penal tee shots just to test driver accuracy over length?
Maybe hate was the wrong initial word, but "positive/negative generalization" would be appropriate. As in Joe's example above, a casual reader might think all JN courses sport narrow fairways, when they don't. Or be too hard. Jack has said his first dozen or so commissions were to create tour event courses and are too tough. I think he has softened a few, and his new work (Cimmaron in Austin comes to mind) is downright playable and more natural than say, Loxahatchie (sp)
So, for any archie who has a long career, or more than a few courses on his record, it is probably hard to summarize their work as "too hard" or whatever.
It probably cannot be changed in this format, which is opinion based, and open to quickly (and for a few posters....drunkenly) posted observations. Quick, knee jerk opinions are obviously a bit less considered than others in most cases. However, even in threads there are always gems, so we accept the good and the bad in this format.
In this one, the gem for me is Jason Thurman's comment, " Joe, if someone doesn't have enough game to favor one side of a 30 yard fairway, why would we think they have enough game to hug a fairway bunker on one side of a 50 yard fairway that guards the ideal angle into a green? And if they don't have the game to hit a 30 yard fairway consistently, what's the point of even playing for an advantageous angle that they likely won't be able to capitalize on?"
One of the most common "positive/negative generalizations" around here is that "wide fairways are good." (Or for movie buffs, "Mongo like wide fairway!" In reality, they have benefits and weaknesses. Jason's comment is worth its own thread as an architecture (vs an architect) discussion. I tried to poll once as to what a "wide fairway" is to people, and no one really wanted to be pinned down, preferring, I supposed, to remain strong in their conviction, facts be damned.
I tend to think that Post WWII architects saw the combined benefits of wide, narrow and medium fairways, and consciously decided (maybe not for all pure golf strategy reasons) made them narrower, and that golfers liked them that way to a certain degree. The universal call for wide fw on golf club atlas is, IMHO, a combination of nostalgia (sometimes for romantic images of the past that may or may not be accurate) and perhaps muck raking, in the fact that it is very easy to point out the things that are wrong with narrower fairways and feel quite superior to others for being so smart. Rarely do muck rakers feel the need for nuanced discussion........
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Jeff,
I hope you’ll forgive me for posting ‘knee-jerk’ and without 6 edits as I have just read yours.
In truth, I have played nine out of over 350 (best I can tell) Nicklaus designs. As someone said earlier...I have played enough to know, even as a better player, he isn’t my favorite. Does that mean his designs are terrible? Of course not.
There is a reason why Nicklaus isn’t getting a love-fest now or in most threads, and those reasons are obviously based on ignorance or heresay as you have so eloquently stated it.
No one dares criticize a Ross or Tillinghast...because they fit the ‘template’ that most on here like. My guess is, most haven’t played 50 + like you, but if they would just play a smattering from other decades, they would probably see the light?
Wide fairways, from your poll question, to me would be 50+. When I have time tonight, I am happy to discuss the nuances...but will have to go ‘general‘ now for work reasons:)
Jason did pose an excellent question! I rarely think in terms of the top 5% even when I play myself, I think in terms of my friends and customers that struggle to break 90. When I say “low handicap amateur”, I am thinking of guys I play invitationals with: 30-40 year old, married, 2.5 kids, large mortgage, job they tolerate, practice 2 days, play 1.5 days per week...not the guys playing Walker cup. My club has multiple fairways that resemble a bowling alley. 3-4 fairways are sub-25 paces. On those, I literally, with driver in hand, just try to hit them middle left or right. Does that mean I or anyone else that can’t call his shot and hit the left or right side on command from 270 out have no business talking strategy? I don’t know?
I have no idea what ‘muck raking’ means, but it looks derogatory? There is a reason why the same 50 people post out of 1500.