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Doug Siebert

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #475 on: March 02, 2014, 02:32:08 PM »
In addition, "spin" was a material factor in the 60's and 70's as balls hit with high speeds would rocket out, low, then balloon up to their apogee/apex , then fall sharply without much roll.


It is amazing how different it was.  I could hit the ball very high back then, perhaps not quite as high as I can now, but I was often cutting the corner of doglegs by driving over fully mature oak trees.  But those trees had to be pretty far away, because it took some time to build that height, versus today where the ball starts gaining altitude much more quickly and has a fairly flat apex.

The difference manifests in trying to cut corners where there are also trees nearer the tee.  Assuming identical trees, I can cut corners today I couldn't before because I couldn't get the ball up nearly fast enough with the old equipment.  On the other hand, there are corners I can't cut now that I could have before because of high overhanging branches that would have never been a problem with the old equipment, that are a problem now because the ball rises much too fast with the new equipment (and because I lack the skill to force the trajectory down without swinging more slowly)
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Paul_Turner

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #476 on: March 02, 2014, 10:50:40 PM »
Comparing the PGA and LPGA stats sheds some light: a reasonably wide range of player strength:


2013 PGA Top 10%= 299yds 
2013 LPGA Bottom 10% = 236yds

About 7 yards extra gain for the strongest 10% PGA vs weakest 10% LPGA



2013 PGA Bottom 10% = 277yds
2013 LPGA Top 10% = 259yds

About 4 yds extra gain for the weakest 10% PGA vs strongest 10% LPGA



2013 LPGA Top 10% = 259yds
2013 LPGA Bottom 10% = 236yds

About 3 yds extra gain for the strongest 10% LPGA vs weakest 10% LPGA

And comparing within the PGA...no difference between the top and bottom deciles.  The 2006 USGA study showed this in a different way.



So overall about 7 yards over that time frame and for the strength range of weakest 10% LPGA to strongest 10% PGA

I think the question whether the "average" player has gained less than a tour pro is much more complex since the average player mishits so much.

You'd need to study the scatter pattern of many shots with old and new tech, which this book did pretty well:

http://www.amazon.com/Clubs-Really-Optimize-Their-Design/dp/0967762502 







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Bryan Izatt

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #477 on: March 03, 2014, 12:49:54 AM »
Here is a link to an interesting recent (Aug. 2011) patent application from Nike, for a ball which they claim "has a typical initial velocity at a low club head speed, but an increased initial velocity at a high club head speed."  

www.google.com/patents/US20130210544

Given their comparison set (Pro V1, Nike One, Nike One D, Callaway Tour i(s)) and the description, this is supposed to be a high performance ball aimed at the high swing speed player. (Notably they didn't include the Pro V1x, perhaps because they didn't want to look bad.)  

So what does "typical initial velocity at low club head speed" mean to Nike?  Here are their initial velocity numbers for an 80 mph swing with a swing robot and a Nike SQ Dymo 10.5° driver.  (complete specifications in the application.)


Ball         ballspd   spin   Lnch   crry   total dist.
Prototype      88   2181   10.8   85   125
OneTourD      90   2139   10.9   88   128
Pro V1          88   2243   10.8   86   125
Tour(i)s         88   2377   10.6   84   123
One Tour      89   2418   10.6   88   126

For all these balls, a swing speed of 80 mph produced an initial ball speed of 88 to 90 mph, and total carry distances in the mid-80s. With a generous 40 yards of roll, the longest of the bunch is only 128 yards total. Granted, the launch angle and spin are way too low for this slow a swing, and maybe a different driver could "optimize" these and improve distance and carry a bit. But what about the ball speed? There isn't much optimization one can do with a ball speed of 88-90 mph.

This is what Nike scientists consider to be "typical initial velocity at low club head speed?"    If 88-90 ball speed is really "typical" with an 80 mph swing speed, then there is no way that the technology behind these balls has improved the distance performance of slow club head swing players.  




If this is correct, then there really IS a supralinear increase in distance at higher swing speeds.  Look at the huge difference between 80 mph to 95 mph versus 80 mph to 110 mph.  3x the additional distance from 2x the additional clubhead speed!

I thought this Quintavella study had debunked that?  Either that study is wrong, or these numbers are wrong.  Does an 80 mph clubhead speed really produce such pitiful distance?


David,

Yet another interesting read, although the plastic chemistry is way over my head.

The thing that strikes me is the wild variation in smash factors at the different swing speeds.  The 125 is lower than the 110 and the 80 is a very small 1.12.  Does anybody know of any other study that has smash factors that low?

I know of only one person that routinely carries a driver around 88 yards and that is my wife.  I sincerely doubt her swing speed is nywhere near 80 mph.

I notice that the test results include the ProV1, yet the conclusion of the claim refers to the ProV1x.  I could not help but laugh that the initial velocity benefit for the super fast 125 mph swinger was a measly 1 mph compared to the ProV1x.  Wonder how much it cost to design and patent such an enormous benefit.

Quote
Table 10 shows how an exemplary ball in accordance with this disclosure has a large difference between the initial velocity under a high club head speed and the initial velocity under a low club head speed. In particular, the difference between 125 mph and 80 mph is larger than any comparative example. Accordingly, the slope of the function “initial velocity=function(club head speed)” is steep.

TABLE 10

Change in Initial Velocities between Different Club Head Speeds

   Club Head Speed Δ:    95-80    110-80    125-80
   
   Example                      28                72       86
   Nike One Tour D              27                69       81
   Pro V1x                      28                71       85
   Tour i(s)                      29                69       83
   Nike One Tour              27                71       82
   

Therefore, a golf ball in accordance with this disclosure may perform well at lower swing speeds (such as those achieved by amateur golfers) by achieving an initial velocity that is substantially similar to various comparative examples. Further, a golf ball in accordance with this disclosure may also perform better than a variety of comparative examples at higher swing speeds (such as those achieved by professional golfers) by achieving an increased initial velocity. Therefore, a golf ball in accordance with this disclosure may be versatile enough to be easily used by golfers having a wide range of abilities.


I notice in a later post Doug was wondering about "supralinear" distance increases in the Nike patent and how this relates to the Quintavalla study.  I took the time to plot the two results.  The Nike study looks like no other study I've seen and certainly unlike the Quintavalla study.  Having read the Quintavalla study and the test methodology I have a lot more faith in their results.




Bryan Izatt

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #478 on: March 03, 2014, 12:58:34 AM »
Thanks, Padraig.  Very interesting.
________________________________________


Bryan,  Regarding your post 457, I think I'll stick with my own statement of my theory in post 440.

That said, your graph does provide very rough idea of what I am talking about here. According to your rough observations:
-- At around an 80 mph swing speed there doesn't appear to be a distance difference between the Pro V1x and the Balata.  
-- At around 103 mph there appears to be about a 7 yards difference.
-- At around 110 mph the difference appears to be about 10 yards difference.

This suggests that the faster swingers, and not slower swingers, have benefited more from the new technology, does it not?

........................................................




It illustrates that there is a difference in the slopes of the two lines and that supports your hypothesis.  Given the limitations of my test, I wouldn't take it to the bank.

Re Andrew Rice, I remain skeptical that the 46 yard gain is indicative of anything.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #479 on: March 03, 2014, 01:36:37 AM »
Here's some testing I did

http://0to300golf.blogspot.ie/2012/12/titanium-versus-persimmon.html

http://0to300golf.blogspot.ie/2013/03/titleist-tour-balata-90-v-titleist-pro.html

http://0to300golf.blogspot.ie/2013/03/persimmon-balata-v-titanium-pro-v1x.html

Didn't get the same differences as Gary Woodland. The ball made the biggest difference for me.


Good stuff Padraig. 

Two considerations that might have effected the result.  The TP club was shafted with graphite which makes it considerably lighter than the old steel shafts.  With a steel shaft I expect your swing speed would have been a little slower.  Secondly the Balatas are 12 years old and probably have lost some of their COR.  No idea how much.  Did you happen to weigh them on a gram scale.  I'm curious if they have dried out and lost weight.

I assume that your titanium driver and current swing is more or less optimized for the ProV1(x) while that would be less true for the TP/Balata combination.

Your conclusion that it is mainly the ball (proV1x) maybe could be more accurately stated as 2/3 ball and 1/3 club for the ProV1x and 50/50 for the ProV1, if I read your numbers correctly.

The results are enlightening re some Balata myths.  They don't seem to spin excessively more.  They launch low but don't balloon to great heights.  They roll out longer, not shorter, than ProV1(x)s.  And, they don't impart excessive side spin (indeed, in your test they were more accurate even with the persimmon driver).  Surprises me.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #480 on: March 03, 2014, 02:08:40 AM »
Bryan, to what are you referring when you say that as 13 mph is inline with other examples we've found? I was thinking around 7 mph was more in line with the rest of what we've found.  Padraig and Jeff reported 6 to 8 mph.  Here is another Andrew Rice experiment where he reports 7 mph.   http://www.andrewricegolf.com/2012/10/which-driver-shaft-length/  What are the other examples of 13?    

(Also keep in mind that an increase at the top end doesn't necessarily translate to the same increase at the bottom end, especially if we consider the yardage benefit.   Average golfers are much less likely to convert lighter and longer clubs into longer distances than top golfers.  Again, we see the technological benefits accruing mostly at the top.)

And, according to the Quintavalla study, I don't think the 3 yards rule of thumb is applicable for the extremely high swing speeds we are considering.  According to Quintavalla returns are diminishing fairly rapidly with each increased mph above 110 mph.  From 110-120 the average return is less than 110-120 the return is less than 2.5, and the report suggests that the bulk of the loss is at the high end, with even greater decline above 120 mph.  In Woodland's case, he is well above the range where a three yard gain per mph applies, so his total gain attributable to swing speed would be much less than 36 yards, wouldn't it?

Also, in Woodland's case, you suggest that the "smash factor" is suspect.  If the "smash factor" is suspect then either the swing speed or ball speed is wrong, which would seem to throw all the rest of the discussion of his numbers into question.  

As for COR, I think they were close to .78.   So the difference wouldn't be as great as you suggest.

Two inches longer in the shaft will get you about 5.5 yards according to this study.  

Going from a 120 gm shaft to a 65 gm shaft would get you 7.7 yards.

Thanks for the link.    

I understand what you are trying to say when you talk about what these changes to weight and length "will get you." But these are they kinds of "all-else-being-equal" tradeoffs that very rarely if ever apply to average golfers.  I think it is a pretty safe bet to say that most average golfers would be better off distance-wise with 44 inch drivers than 46 inch drivers, and that any gains in swing speed would be more than offset by increasingly poor ball striking.  

I thought I remembered one in the 11 mph range, but could be mistaken and I can't effectively search on this little computer.  Let say that the differences appear to be between 6 and 13 mph.  They are all anecdotal examples so it's not surprising there is variation.  For instance Padraig's example had a graphite shaft in the persimmon head making the overall club lighter than if it had a steel shaft.  My only point is that reduced club weight contributed and COR increases in the driver contributed to the distance gains.  It could be 30% or it could be 50% (as in Padraig's two examples).  Whatever it was, it was not insignificant.  It is not "all" about the ball.

I stand corrected by you and Garland on the COR of wooden drivers.

Yes, the gain tails off in the upper swing speed range.  When Mucci's long hitting high schoolers start swinging at 130 or 140 mph what do you suppose the gain will be - 1 yard per mph?  Is there a limit where increasing swing speed nets no gain?

Re Woodland, I'd say a lot of the studies or anecdotes are suspect to the degree we don't know the complete test methodology or the conditions of the test weren't controlled.  The more I look into all of this the more I appreciate how comlicated the subject is and how difficult it is to test scenarios.  Us amateurs trying to simplify it and draw conclusions is a little silly.

I agree that amateur hacks or average golfers or the masses aren't going to gain much from any of these things we're discussing.  They (we) are just too erratic to reliably gain anything other than sporadically.


 

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #481 on: March 03, 2014, 02:20:38 AM »
Bryan,

I'd be cautious when reviewing swing studies from the 60's and 70's as I don't think there was a keen awareness of launch angles, which could have an impact on carry and overall distance.

I agree with the lack of awareness.  Do you have some specific studies from the 60's and 70's you're referring to?  I'd like to see them.

In addition, "spin" was a material factor in the 60's and 70's as balls hit with high speeds would rocket out, low, then balloon up to their apogee/apex , then fall sharply without much roll.

Strangely, people like Padraig, who are trying the old equipment now are not getting the super spin out of the Balatas that you remember.  Why is that?  I recall the balloon ball shots.  I didn't get that shot personally.  Maybe I didn't have the downward angle of attack with a high dynamic launch angle that would cause it.  I suspect if players of the time had the understanding of launch condtions and ball flight that we have now, those kind of shots could have been avoided.  From current experience hitting balatas, super high spin rates off the driver are not inherent in the ball.

Ball flight in the 60's and 70's was significantly different from today, especially with off center hits and deviant swings.

For some, but perhaps not for all.  Did you have it?  I know Tom Paul had it.  I didn't.  I don't think any of us knew any better than to think it was a good thing or the way things were.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #482 on: March 03, 2014, 02:25:53 AM »
|Paul,

Interesting take.

Any idea what the swing speeds are for the lowest LPGA decile?  The top PGA decile must be around 115 to 120 mph.  I wonder what the swing speed of the average amateur male is.  Probably not far off the lowest LPGA decile would be my guess.



Comparing the PGA and LPGA stats sheds some light: a reasonably wide range of player strength:


2013 PGA Top 10%= 299yds 
2013 LPGA Bottom 10% = 236yds

About 7 yards extra gain for the strongest 10% PGA vs weakest 10% LPGA



2013 PGA Bottom 10% = 277yds
2013 LPGA Top 10% = 259yds

About 4 yds extra gain for the weakest 10% PGA vs strongest 10% LPGA



2013 LPGA Top 10% = 259yds
2013 LPGA Bottom 10% = 236yds

About 3 yds extra gain for the strongest 10% LPGA vs weakest 10% LPGA

And comparing within the PGA...no difference between the top and bottom deciles.  The 2006 USGA study showed this in a different way.



So overall about 7 yards over that time frame and for the strength range of weakest 10% LPGA to strongest 10% PGA

I think the question whether the "average" player has gained less than a tour pro is much more complex since the average player mishits so much.

You'd need to study the scatter pattern of many shots with old and new tech, which this book did pretty well:

http://www.amazon.com/Clubs-Really-Optimize-Their-Design/dp/0967762502 









Doug Siebert

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #483 on: March 03, 2014, 02:40:47 AM »
Yes, the gain tails off in the upper swing speed range.  When Mucci's long hitting high schoolers start swinging at 130 or 140 mph what do you suppose the gain will be - 1 yard per mph?  Is there a limit where increasing swing speed nets no gain?


If there is, the long driving competitors haven't found it.  They swing as fast or faster than 150 mph, using 50" drivers.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #484 on: March 03, 2014, 08:28:56 AM »
Bryan,

I'd be cautious when reviewing swing studies from the 60's and 70's as I don't think there was a keen awareness of launch angles, which could have an impact on carry and overall distance.

I agree with the lack of awareness.  Do you have some specific studies from the 60's and 70's you're referring to?  I'd like to see them.

In addition, "spin" was a material factor in the 60's and 70's as balls hit with high speeds would rocket out, low, then balloon up to their apogee/apex , then fall sharply without much roll.

Strangely, people like Padraig, who are trying the old equipment now are not getting the super spin out of the Balatas that you remember.  Why is that?

Because he's teeing the ball up as modern players do, high, and hitting it on the upswing as modern golfers do.
That's not the swing mechanics employed in the 60's, that's why the ball flight differed.



I recall the balloon ball shots.  I didn't get that shot personally.  Maybe I didn't have the downward angle of attack with a high dynamic launch angle that would cause it.  I suspect if players of the time had the understanding of launch condtions and ball flight that we have now, those kind of shots could have been avoided.  From current experience hitting balatas, super high spin rates off the driver are not inherent in the ball.[/size]


Bryan,

The answer lies in the way the ball was teed up in the 60's.
It was teed low, with the optimum set up having the ball's equator being even with the top of the clubhead.

This affected the launch angle dramatically because the full clubhead couldn't get "under" the ball to "launch" it, nor was that the intent.

I don't think any golfers deliberately hit the ball with the intent of launching it like a howitzer, as is routinely done today, unless there was a good wind at your back.

In Frank Hannigan's 1981 comments to me, when we were discussing driving distance in Atlanta, and it's advantages, he mentioned that his observations were that the really long golfers hit the ball high.
This was before anyone was measuring or even aware of launch angles.

The swing plane, based on the way the ball was teed up, greatly influenced ball flight


Ball flight in the 60's and 70's was significantly different from today, especially with off center hits and deviant swings.

For some, but perhaps not for all.  Did you have it? 


Yes, and so did my dad, who was an exceptional golfer.


I know Tom Paul had it.  I didn't.  I don't think any of us knew any better than to think it was a good thing or the way things were.[/size]

Garland Bayley

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #485 on: March 03, 2014, 10:42:04 AM »
...
Because he's teeing the ball up as modern players do, high, and hitting it on the upswing as modern golfers do.
That's not the swing mechanics employed in the 60's, that's why the ball flight differed.
...

To say the golfers in the 60's were not teeing it high and hitting it on the upswing is just plain wrong. This is something that was probably learned very early in the history of the game and has been done for a long long time.

There were no professional golf teachers in the rural area where I learned to play. I learned from Tommy Armour's book. It says "The drive is hit slightly on the upswing. The irons must be hit on the downswing." It was published in 1953.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #486 on: March 03, 2014, 12:19:06 PM »
There's a great deal of good stuff in the last couple of pages, especially the chart's Paul Turner produced. Andrew Rice uses 94mph as the overall average swing speed on the LPGA Tour and 112 on the mens tour (I'm sure these are numbers within the last few years). Considering that, I'd think the strongest and weakest decile on each tour 5 - 10 mph from that mean. Guessing the weakest women are in the mid-high 80's.

Let's hope the slope from Nike's 80mph = 90 yard carry is REALLY steep up to the 85mph swing speed mark...like maybe 15 or 20 yards per mph!!!

Slightly different direction, but I can't overstate how irrelevant I think any of these individual corn field tests are, including Andrew Rice. Individual swing dynamics play such a huge part in how different equipment (balls, club head, shaft, etc...) performs that there's no way to identify the true value of each component's contribution to distance gains.

In my opinion, each component needs to be pulled out and tested...do you think the manufacturer's or USGA have done this?

Tom Paul has offered to call his friends at the USGA to ask a list of questions that might shed light on this conversation from their perspective; does anyone want to put together a list?

Doug Siebert

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #487 on: March 03, 2014, 01:38:17 PM »
...
Because he's teeing the ball up as modern players do, high, and hitting it on the upswing as modern golfers do.
That's not the swing mechanics employed in the 60's, that's why the ball flight differed.
...

To say the golfers in the 60's were not teeing it high and hitting it on the upswing is just plain wrong. This is something that was probably learned very early in the history of the game and has been done for a long long time.

There were no professional golf teachers in the rural area where I learned to play. I learned from Tommy Armour's book. It says "The drive is hit slightly on the upswing. The irons must be hit on the downswing." It was published in 1953.



Interesting...I learned from that very same book.  The only "lesson" I've ever had.

It wasn't as simple to hit on the upswing as it is today, because of the ease/problem of hitting under the ball.  Remember those undercut drives from back then?  You never see those anymore.  I'm not sure it is even possible to hit one today.  When I played around with longer tees I found that even hitting my driver so high up the clubface it left a visible mark on the top of the clubhead still flew quite well.  Higher and perhaps a bit shorter than normal, but worlds better than the 100+ yards shorter that an undercut with a balata and small driver cost.

Personally, I've always caught the ball at bottom of my swing.  At least when it is working as it should.  The only time I consciously tried to tee it a bit higher and to the left to hit it on the upswing was if there was a strong following wind and I was really going after it (on a really long par 5, for instance)  I remember reading back in the 80s (Golf or Golf Digest) that Nicklaus said that with a following wind you wanted MORE backspin, and into the wind you wanted less.  That you should swing harder or use a 3W with a following wind, and swing slower into the wind.

I admit I'm confused by the numbers being shown for the spin rate of balata on persimmon.  This does not jive with what I observe with my own drives then and now, especially into a strong wind.  Is it possible that balata balls decreased rpms more slowly than modern balls throughout the ball flight, due to ball construction or aerodynamics?  Perhaps the initial rpms were similar but the rpms 100 yards off the clubface diverged?
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Brent Hutto

Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #488 on: March 03, 2014, 01:43:46 PM »
Well, Doug. When you see numbers being bruited about that fail to comport with a) your own extensive experience, b) the commonly accepted "conventional wisdom" and c) common sense then you have to consider the possibility that the numbers being quote are crap.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #489 on: March 03, 2014, 01:52:51 PM »
Changes in reducing of spin? Seems unlikely, but may be a function of dimples? One of the spin reports in the tread noted that although the balata spin rates were close to the ProV, it curved sideways in a more pronounced manner. Is perhaps making shallower dimples having a significant effect? This seems unlikely to me, because I doubt TopFlites and Titlesit balatas had significantly different dimples, but they sure moved differently in the air, which I have always attributed to the spin rates.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Paul_Turner

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #490 on: March 03, 2014, 02:51:27 PM »
Bryan

Like Jim I'd guess 90 mph or slightly less for the bottom 10% LPGA and would think this is roughly equivalent to the average male golfer.

I think to a good approximation, the gains in the last 20 odd years scale linearly or proportionally.   Which basically means that a strong male tour pro hitting it 300 yds gained about 9-10 yards over a relatively weak player who now hits it 220yds (assuming he/she hits it on the sweet spot).

But none of this factors in the "average" hit for an amateur player and how that was impacted with tech improvements.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 03:19:15 PM by Paul_Turner »
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JESII

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #491 on: March 03, 2014, 03:03:36 PM »
Quote
Are you suggesting that the ProV1 would have performed significantly better than the DT under the exact launch conditions used in the Tour Edition test? How much?


Yes.  Between 20 and 30 yards at 3232 spin and 239 fps initial velocity. (More if we don't artificially lock in the spin rate for either.)


I meant to grab this earlier...do you have something that supports this?

Padraig Dooley

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #492 on: March 03, 2014, 04:36:56 PM »
Here's some testing I did

http://0to300golf.blogspot.ie/2012/12/titanium-versus-persimmon.html

http://0to300golf.blogspot.ie/2013/03/titleist-tour-balata-90-v-titleist-pro.html

http://0to300golf.blogspot.ie/2013/03/persimmon-balata-v-titanium-pro-v1x.html

Didn't get the same differences as Gary Woodland. The ball made the biggest difference for me.


Good stuff Padraig. 

Two considerations that might have effected the result.  The TP club was shafted with graphite which makes it considerably lighter than the old steel shafts.  With a steel shaft I expect your swing speed would have been a little slower.  Secondly the Balatas are 12 years old and probably have lost some of their COR.  No idea how much.  Did you happen to weigh them on a gram scale.  I'm curious if they have dried out and lost weight.

I assume that your titanium driver and current swing is more or less optimized for the ProV1(x) while that would be less true for the TP/Balata combination.

Your conclusion that it is mainly the ball (proV1x) maybe could be more accurately stated as 2/3 ball and 1/3 club for the ProV1x and 50/50 for the ProV1, if I read your numbers correctly.

The results are enlightening re some Balata myths.  They don't seem to spin excessively more.  They launch low but don't balloon to great heights.  They roll out longer, not shorter, than ProV1(x)s.  And, they don't impart excessive side spin (indeed, in your test they were more accurate even with the persimmon driver).  Surprises me.



Bryan

I did consider that the graphite shaft lightened the overall weight of the Tony Penna persimmon and that a steel shaft would have lowered the swing speed even more. But that was the only persimmon I had at the time. Also since mass is also a component of momentum, swinging a heavier club at slightly lower speeds doesn't necessarily mean a loss of overall distance.

The balatas were stored in a dark drawer and shouldn't have lost too much weight. Even if they did this would mean a lesser differential in distance between the two balls.

I was also surprised that the balatas didn't balloon more, remembering the initial days of balata and titanium when the balloon ball was prevalent.

As an aside Paul Hurrion of Quintic sports has computer software that can measure swing speed from video. He measured a speed of a driver swing of Jack Nicklaus from a video from the 60s at 125mph. That is some speed for a persimmon driver!!

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Doug Siebert

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #493 on: March 03, 2014, 05:00:25 PM »
Changes in reducing of spin? Seems unlikely, but may be a function of dimples? One of the spin reports in the tread noted that although the balata spin rates were close to the ProV, it curved sideways in a more pronounced manner. Is perhaps making shallower dimples having a significant effect? This seems unlikely to me, because I doubt TopFlites and Titlesit balatas had significantly different dimples, but they sure moved differently in the air, which I have always attributed to the spin rates.



Well, aerodynamics, but more importantly the composition of the ball.  Balls don't necessarily distribute mass evenly throughout their various layers.  If one ball had a higher density core and the other had a higher density cover, they'd have different amounts of rotational kinetic energy and thus one would lose more rpms per second of flight than the other, even if the dimple patterns were identical.  Because energy is conserved, a ball that had a higher density core and thus lost rotational energy more quickly would transfer more rotational energy from impact, as compared to a ball with a lower density core.

So was there a difference between balatas and modern balls in this regard?  Titleist balatas had a liquid center, surrounded by a lot of rubber windings.  I don't know the density of the windings compared to the overall average density of the ball, but it is probably not as dense as solid rubber.  The liquid center was almost certainly less dense than the overall ball (unless it used a heavy liquid like oil)  That would mean the ball was probably lighter in the center and heavier in the cover, which would transfer less spin from impact, but lose less spin during flight.  I have no idea of the density of the various layers in a modern ball, but it is reasonable to assume that they are not of identical density.  Is it denser in the center or less dense in the center?  I have no idea.  Maybe those digging into the patents saw something about the densities of the different layers?

Based on the trajectory of the modern ball versus the balata, I'd say the balata loses less spin as it flies than the modern ball does.  Recall how the balata balls flew off a driver (those too young to remember can read Patrick's description of it) versus what we all experience with every drive today with the modern ball.  The balata started out lower, climbed to a peak, then dropped fairly quickly.  That's what you'd expect from a ball that gained height primarily via backspin.  The modern ball starts out higher in the early stages of flight, and has a much flatter apex (which makes it appear to fall more slowly when viewed from behind)  It is reaching its apex mainly due to the initial launch angle, with backspin not contributing as heavily.

Balls lose rotational energy and forward velocity during flight due to friction, which is dependent on the dimple pattern.  Obviously the primary goal in dimple design is to lose as little velocity per foot as possible.  Spin is only necessary at the start of flight to the extent needed to help the ball climb to its apex.  Beyond that spin is less desirable as it would steepen the downward trajectory and reduce roll.  It seems reasonable that a modern ball would be designed to lose as little of the initial velocity as possible, but rely more on a higher launch and less on spin to reach its apex - therefore meaning it would be desirable for it to lose spin fairly quickly.  If it was possible to measure rpms 50, 100 and 150 yards after impact I'll bet the numbers would show the modern ball losing rpms much more quickly.

So maybe controlling spin via the rules is more subtle.  Rather than dealing solely with initial spin rate, you have to deal with how quickly the ball loses spin.  i.e. a drive hit with an initial spin rate of x can lose a maximum of y rpm per distance or time.  It isn't that you don't want balls spinning at 3000 rpm when hit with the driver, it is that you want it carrying more of that spin throughout the drive, rather than quickly shedding it.
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Padraig Dooley

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #494 on: March 03, 2014, 05:03:10 PM »

Because he's teeing the ball up as modern players do, high, and hitting it on the upswing as modern golfers do.
That's not the swing mechanics employed in the 60's, that's why the ball flight differed.[/color][/color]



I definitely found while doing the test that I was teeing the ball up much higher with the persimmon then I recalled doing with it or even the old Taylor Made Burner twenty years ago. The angle of attack was more positive with the persimmon then even the Titleist driver I used in comparison.

However going from a negative angle of attack to a positive angle of attack doesn't necessarily mean a change in spin. Spin Loft, which is the difference between the angle of attack and the dynamic loft of the club, is one of the main components of spin. A lot of the time this relationship stays the same whether a player hits up or down on the ball, giving the same spin e.g an attack angle of -3 with a dynamic loft of 12 gives a spin loft of 15 and an attack angle of +2 with a dynamic loft of 17 also gives a spin loft of 15. The first shot just launches lower then the second but they both have the same spin.

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JESII

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #495 on: March 03, 2014, 06:22:57 PM »

A lot of the time this relationship stays the same whether a player hits up or down on the ball, giving the same spin e.g an attack angle of -3 with a dynamic loft of 12 gives a spin loft of 15 and an attack angle of +2 with a dynamic loft of 17 also gives a spin loft of 15. The first shot just launches lower then the second but they both have the same spin.


Padraig,

I think I have a reasonable sense for these factors around spin and while I can understand what you say above..."a lot of the time" seems more like something that could happen in a vacuum as opposed to a real golfer hitting a real golf ball.

If you changed your attack angle by 5*, you're almost certainly  going to affect your spin loft aren't you?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #496 on: March 03, 2014, 06:33:14 PM »
...
Because he's teeing the ball up as modern players do, high, and hitting it on the upswing as modern golfers do.
That's not the swing mechanics employed in the 60's, that's why the ball flight differed.
...

To say the golfers in the 60's were not teeing it high and hitting it on the upswing is just plain wrong.

It's NOT wrong, it's fact.

Were you playing golf in 1960 ?


This is something that was probably learned very early in the history of the game and has been done for a long long time.

You don't know what you're talking about.
What year were you born and in what year did you begin playing golf ?


There were no professional golf teachers in the rural area where I learned to play.
I learned from Tommy Armour's book. It says "The drive is hit slightly on the upswing.
The irons must be hit on the downswing." It was published in 1953.

What about the word, "slightly" don't you understand ?
My dad was friendly with and took lessons from Tommy Armour and Tommy Armour NEVER taught teeing the ball up high and "launching" it.



Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #497 on: March 03, 2014, 06:48:25 PM »

I did consider that the graphite shaft lightened the overall weight of the Tony Penna persimmon and that a steel shaft would have lowered the swing speed even more. But that was the only persimmon I had at the time. Also since mass is also a component of momentum, swinging a heavier club at slightly lower speeds doesn't necessarily mean a loss of overall distance.

Yes, it does, it's indisputable.
Club "head"speed determines distance


The balatas were stored in a dark drawer and shouldn't have lost too much weight. Even if they did this would mean a lesser differential in distance between the two balls.

What was the brand, year and compression ?
One or multi piece ?


I was also surprised that the balatas didn't balloon more, remembering the initial days of balata and titanium when the balloon ball was prevalent.

Balata balls didn't remain static, hence the outcome could have been influenced by the type of Balata ball used


As an aside Paul Hurrion of Quintic sports has computer software that can measure swing speed from video.
He measured a speed of a driver swing of Jack Nicklaus from a video from the 60s at 125mph. That is some speed for a persimmon driver!!

I would look at look at that claim with enlightened suspicion.

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #498 on: March 03, 2014, 07:03:31 PM »
Tommy Armour video

http://youtu.be/waNV3QmakF8
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 07:15:35 PM by Richard Hetzel »
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DMoriarty

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Re: Is it not a big deal Dustin Johnson hit 3w/6i on the 18th green at PB?
« Reply #499 on: March 03, 2014, 07:07:12 PM »
Quote
Are you suggesting that the ProV1 would have performed significantly better than the DT under the exact launch conditions used in the Tour Edition test? How much?


Yes.  Between 20 and 30 yards at 3232 spin and 239 fps initial velocity. (More if we don't artificially lock in the spin rate for either.)


I meant to grab this earlier...do you have something that supports this?

In that example the DT had 250 yards carry, 268.5 yards total.   Enter 239 fps and 3232 spin into the flightscope simulator Bryan linked to earlier and the results are 276.7 carry and 297 yards total. Or look at the trackman tables for 239 fps ball speed.  Or look at the various reports of those whose swing speeds produce 239 fps ball speed with the modern ball.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 07:08:48 PM by DMoriarty »
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