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Nigel_Walton

What's wrong with England?
« on: August 11, 2003, 05:11:04 PM »
Royal North Devon, Rye, Swinley Forest, Saunton. The list could go on. Does your Golf magazine panel not travel to England, or do they just change planes for Scotland or Ireland?

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2003, 06:04:14 PM »
Nigel-

It is a bit of a mystery why the English courses have such a low profile with American golfers relative to the courses of Ireland and England. I have been fortunate enough to play several of the Berkshire/Surrey courses, the Lancashire coast courses and St. Endoc/Trevose in Cornwall.  There is a TON of great golf there! I would rank the stretch of coast line from Lytham St. Annes south to Hoylake the strongest 75 miles of links golf in the world.  It is certainly equal or superior to anything you would find in Scotland or Ireland.

My guess is England does not have the perceived mystique and charm off the golf course that so many Americans find while traveling in Scotland and Ireland. It could be that England is just not an exotic enough experience for Americans visiting the British Isles.

DT  

   

THuckaby2

Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2003, 06:09:09 PM »
I'd agree with David in his assessment of the golfing pilgrimages of US travellers... it would have to go 1 Scotland 2 Ireland 3 something tropical 4 England...

But that's no excuse for the august GM panel, which counts as its members many non-Americans, with damn near all of the Americans on there being VERY well-travelled....

Could it be they just plain blew it?

Or maybe do those English courses truly not belong in the top 100?

I don't know the answer to either, I'm just asking.

TH

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2003, 06:37:33 PM »
Well is saying the English are there enough? lol lol No that was for the benefit of our Scotish and Irish friends. I find the fact the Americans are not there in droves all the more reason to go. I love links golf and will go to England next year. There is as much great links golf there as in all Scotland.

Evan_Green

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Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2003, 07:20:57 PM »
I did a trip to England a few yrs back and hit among others-Birkdale, Lytham, Liverpool, Sunningdale, Walton Heath, wentworth, Ganton, Woodhall Spa, Rye and some others-- all fantastic courses- i would love to go back and do it again. I was so taken aback at Woodhall Spa how happy they were to see Americans there- apparently a relatively rare occurance given most havent heard of it and its location.

Darren_Kilfara

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Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2003, 07:21:10 PM »
Tom, the answer is that the English courses ARE that good. Perhaps some of the raters are turned off by the short lengths of some of the old courses, maybe. Or perhaps England would dominate the 101-200 rankings (which is quite possible - there are many really good courses but relatively few great ones). Personally, if I had to choose any one of England/Scotland/Ireland/Wales and stick to playing golf in that country for the rest of my life, I'd probably go with England for its amazing diversity (links + inland) and the number of quality Doak 4-5 courses that Mr. Turner's camera faithfully records for us on such a regular basis. Of course, that's only if someone will bankroll me, as the green fees are a bit steeper in England than they are elsewhere - which may in part be why some Americans choose the Celtic countries, I don't know.

Cheers,
Darren

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2003, 07:36:08 PM »
Darren, what part of cheaper are the the celtic courses than your home course.

THuckaby2

Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2003, 08:01:11 PM »
The question isn't where one would like to play long term... the question here is why do the greats from England not make this particular ranking list.

And for that, I have no answer other than to say those GM raters ought to be ashamed of themselves.  How dare they not please every constituency world-wide.   ;)

TH

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2003, 08:34:53 PM »
Like all rating golf magazines, the majority are caught in hype, length and "tradition."  There are some on this site who would rate the English courses quite high.  I think the length of the English courses hurt their chances in the eyes of some.  Furthermore some are harder to access than the famous ones in Ireland and Scotland.  The Irish and Scotish courses desire the outside green fees.  Let's face it, when in England, there is so much to see and do in London, Americans golf in Scotland and Ireland and can put away the clubs in England and have fun in London.
The secretary at Rye said they get turned down most of the time when they propose to host a qualifying competition, being told the course is too short.
I would bet there are a lot of raters who won't rank a course high unless it is over 6,500 yards.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Paul_Turner

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Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2003, 09:46:18 PM »
How many English courses are there in the top 100 (9)?  There's probably enough, eventhough quite a few more courses are good enough (usual suspects).  I'm sure it's not from the lack of votes from Ran and Tom D.  But I'd be interested to know which ones they have in their top 100s.

How well traveled is that panel?

The only thing that pisses me off is that none of the top English courses are right near the top.  Sandwich at 32 is a bloody joke.

Darren

Several of those hidden gem courses are, in my mind, comfortably better than 4-5 on the Doak scale: Broadstone, Whittington Heath, Harborne, Wallasey, Camberley Heath, Manchester(?), Prestbury(?). Hopefully you'll get to see them one day, if you ever return to civilisation!
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

johnk

Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2003, 01:30:50 AM »

I'm all for these courses staying off the infernal rankings.  I doubt it bothers the members at all, fewer Perry buses showing up on random Tuesdays.

The less notice these courses get, the more likely they will stay as they are.  The more enjoyable they are to play for the well-traveled epicurean.

Rankings - I'm sick of 'em.  So let's just keep it quiet and hope the rankings game passes England by for another few decades...

PS.  Darren - My experience is that I spend more in Scotland than England...


Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2003, 04:27:54 AM »
JohnK, if you stick to the well-beaten tourist path in Scotland (TOC, Turnberry, Troon, Prestwick, Muirfield, etc.) you can wind up paying a lot of money, but it doesn't have to be that way. I suppose the better comment has to do with access instead of price - Scotland has only one Muirfield, whereas England has any number of Swinley Forests. Not that this is in and of itself a bad thing, but it's not as easy to just ring one of these posh clubs and ask for a tee time the next day.

Paul, what Doak ranking would you give, say, Edgbaston? I think you should be required by law to put your neck out on the chopping block and put a ranking with all future sets of pictures. :) By the way, are all of these sets of pictures new, i.e. do you keep flying back to England every month or so to go somewhere with your Dad? It sure seems like it...

Cheers,
Darren

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2003, 08:39:05 AM »
Darren

I'm wouldn't be putting my neck on the block, because I doubt anyone from GCA will visit them.  Painswick was an exception!  I'll give Edgbaston a 5, a course comfortably above average, it's short and small, but the design is clever and it's a beautiful, peaceful oasis.  I've only made one trip back this year, but I crammed a lot in.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2003, 07:47:44 PM »
Paul,

Wouldn't you support seeing - in order - Swinley Forest, Rye, Westward Ho!, The Addington, West Sussex, St. Enodoc, St. George's Hill, and Royal Ashdown Forest Down on the world top 100 list? I know I would  ;D

Plus, my brother tells me in no uncertain terms that Notts, Deal  and especially Royal Worlington & Newmarket are no-brainers as well.

That's eleven (!) English courses that are presently MIA  :'( And what about Formby and perhaps Alwoodley and the New Course at Sunningdale and the New Course at Walton Heath and Saunton East??

Cheers,
« Last Edit: August 12, 2003, 07:58:46 PM by Ran Morrissett »

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2003, 08:13:47 PM »
Ran

Of course I would(!), maybe with a slightly different order.  But if there's 25 courses from England, and then roughly:  

5 Ireland
5 Oz+Nz
15 Scotland
3 Japan
1 SA
3 Europe
1 Wales


That only leaves about 40 for the whole of North America! Out of how many courses?

PS
Brancaster would be a nice addition too.  That course must be playing crazy, in the heat wave they've been having.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2003, 08:17:40 PM by P_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's wrong with England?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2003, 08:27:19 PM »
My mistake!! Brancaster is a must, of course.

When you say one in Wales - which one?  Or is one really two  :D

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's wrong with England?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2008, 01:29:13 PM »
I thought it might be worth revisiting this one. I don't know whether the magazine ratings have improved but I get the impression that England is respected by many on this site.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: What's wrong with England?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2008, 03:36:00 PM »
Nothing is wrong with English courses. I believe the problem is insufficient time allocated to searching out and find them.

Another potential problem relates to the nature and attitude portrayed by some of the English Clubs. They issue the wrong message unless you seem to have a Bentley, a leftover from the old days of Empire. This is something you do not tend to find in Ireland & Scotland. But let me say private clubs have every right to reflect the attitude of their Members.

Having said that as Ran and others have mentioned there are indeed many good to great courses to play in England and open to Visitors. The problem is this pre-conceived idea that when visiting the UK the following are the must play courses, TOC, Dornoch, Cruden, Prestwick, Brora etc. etc. Yet as I have mentioned on many occasions by e-mail to those intending to visit Scotland there are many other course available that will generate as much fun and at a much reduced price.

I am trying to persuade some UK clubs to come together to form an Old Tom Morris Trail (clubs with a connection with Old Tom, as a large portion of his designs have been absorbed, although there are still many of his holes scattered around the UK, not to mention the Bridge of Allan which is more or less unchanged since he let).

The limitation is time and of course distance, if you are over for 10-14 days you do not want to waste days in travelling and of course golfers want to play their favourite courses. I love Links golf, nothing comes close to matching the pleasure of playing over them. Hoylake, Royal North Devon and a few small hidden courses like Warkworth on the Northumberland coast - a small 9 hole course. But who has the time to actually relax and enjoy the full experience of UK golf in general?

I do and I certainly do not want to change that. So please keep away, don’t tell anyone and let us poor locals enjoy Rye, etc., I don’t think I want to share them well not just yet. ;) 8)


Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's wrong with England?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2008, 04:04:55 PM »
To be honest the quality of the great courses in England compares very favorably to Scotland and Ireland.  It just isn't as quaint or mystical as Ireland or as historic as Scotland.  It is deep in great links courses and has the best inland courses in the Isles.  The heathland courses are an added bonus and without peer.  Where else can you play Sunningdale, The Berkshire, Swinley Forest, Walton Heath, St. Georges Hill etc.  I have made a dozen trips to GB&I and England is my favorite.  Yet when I tell people that I am going to England to play golf they generally ask, "Why aren't you going to Ireland or Scotland?" I tell them, "I have played all the great courses there but England is deeper in quality and it takes more time to play them all."
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Richard Boult

Re: What's wrong with England?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2008, 10:45:19 PM »
Ironically, GCA'ers have posted more Photo Tours from England courses than Ireland and Scotland combined:

http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/England

Those links should make you want to play golf in England instead of just visiting London.

TEPaul

Re: What's wrong with England?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2008, 12:13:27 AM »
MarkR and MelvynM et al:

The answer to this question is actually remarkably simple. It is that the vast, vast majority of Americans (if you are talking about American rating magazines and such) just don't have any real taste at all. We are very good at making loads of money with things that human beings have no real reason to try to make money on and spending it and we love change---matter of fact, culturally, change is pretty much like our national "ethos" middle name. We don't really get a concept like tradition because we see it as "anti-change" and to us the rest of the world is nothing much more than another form of "Disney Land" that is there simply for the benefit of our 2-3 week annual vacations.

Are you both aware of that wonderful cultural, educational concept the British used to call "the Grand Tour" where the naturally sophisticated Brits would spend many months to a year traveling through and soaking up the cultural and architectural glories of the past classical worlds of other countries?

To Americans today that basic concept of the "Grand Tour" isn't much more than our new military's training excercises with the ultimate goal being----if you break it enough times you may someday find out if it's possible to actually fix it somehow.

Personally, I'm just damn sorry I'm not young again because if I was I just know I could find a way to turn Iraq or Iran into just a much larger version of Palm Beach in the future.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 12:23:52 AM by TEPaul »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: What's wrong with England?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2008, 04:47:01 AM »
Tom

The world is not your oyster, it’s owned and run by other older cultures with a rich and depth of history which some of your fellow countrymen seem to crave. ;)

Perhaps this constant need to change things is a cry for help, seeking a real form of identity for a multi cultural society or is it just a sign of internal weakness. Too deep for me, I’ll let others ponder that question. I’m just interested in Golf. ???

Golf is a great sport, it is totally an outdoors pursuit, allows the player to gently exercise, encourages the use of our little grey cells and also gives us the opportunity to relax and appreciate the natural world around us.  8)

Well, that was until the need of a certain Nation to try and stamp its identity on to a great sport, by introducing different alien ideas which in truth seem to contradict the original thoughts and ideas behind the great game of Golf. The introduction of totally artificial and manicured courses which look like an advert for a covers for a chocolate box; The introduction of carts, contrary to the original concept and spirit of the of the game; the encouragement of artificial aids which require minimal use of our little grey cells; technology used for obtaining distance and with the hope of enabling a player to reduce his score, not by his own abilities but by improved equipment and the ultimate sin of all introducing course with a No Walking policy. >:(

Yet all is not lost, many, many brave and determined soles venture across the great ocean to play the game on the original land used for centuries and in the traditional way, but alas the cart and No Walking courses have followed and have established a bridgehead here in the old land of tradition and history. But fear not, we owe ourselves and our friends from across the ocean who love the game, our commitment to fight a full rear guard action and try and stem this influx of alien ideas and equipment into our sport. Although unless supported by all golfers it will be a war we may in the end loss due to apathy from the golfing public at large. The Pioneering influence is nearly dead within us and is being forced out by those who want to make the game of golf easy. ::)

But then it is just a game, but to some of us, it is a little bit more and our Standard is still flying high, albeit slightly frayed.  Never forget that a warm welcome is always guaranteed to those with the pioneering spirit who want to play golf in the UK.  :'(

My sincere thanks to all who have travelled and those planning to visit our shores just to play and experience our golf courses.     


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's wrong with England?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2008, 05:10:20 AM »
Nothing is wrong with England other than the weather is shite, everything is expensive, we're over-taxed, and there is a cretin Scotsman in #10.  The golf is good though!  When you consider that England is roughly 1/3 the size of California and approximately the same size as New York and a few miniscule states (sorry RI & DE), it is definitely fighting above its weight in terms of quality and variety.  Don't listen to the folks who say a warm welcome isn't on offer south of the wall.  I have found English club members and staff to be every bit as engaging as elsewhere in GB&I.   Jeepers, even that rascal JakaB has a few standing invites, how bad can we be? One other thing to consider, the historical sites to be seen in England far outweigh what the other home nations have to offer.  Ok, so the English helped things along in this regard by burning a cottage ot two here and a castle there.  Lets let bygones be bygones.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 05:12:59 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Melvyn Morrow

Re: What's wrong with England?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2008, 05:17:30 AM »
Sean

'a cretin Scotsman in #10.'  Cretin is rather mild, but OK for this site
but it upsets me to think of him as British let alone a Scotsman.

Who is he and does he play golf? But then who cares.

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's wrong with England?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2008, 07:26:29 AM »
Nothing is wrong with England other than the weather is shite, everything is expensive, we're over-taxed, and there is a cretin Scotsman in #10.  The golf is good though!  When you consider that England is roughly 1/3 the size of California and approximately the same size as New York and a few miniscule states (sorry RI & DE), it is definitely fighting above its weight in terms of quality and variety.  Don't listen to the folks who say a warm welcome isn't on offer south of the wall.  I have found English club members and staff to be every bit as engaging as elsewhere in GB&I.   Jeepers, even that rascal JakaB has a few standing invites, how bad can we be? One other thing to consider, the historical sites to be seen in England far outweigh what the other home nations have to offer.  Ok, so the English helped things along in this regard by burning a cottage ot two here and a castle there.  Lets let bygones be bygones.

Ciao

Don't forget that all the castles in Wales were built by the English. OK, so it was in order to control and oppress the troublesome natives but that's just details.