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Paul_Turner

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Chas Ambrose, Max Behr and Tom Simpson (1927)
« on: August 08, 2003, 09:27:58 PM »
As a follow on to the articles from a while ago (the bottle hole at Sunningdale)-especially for Tommy Paul.

Unfortunately I don't have the response from Behr yet;  but I will have these soon.  

You may not agree with the text, but I think you have to agree that the magazines were a good deal more interesting for the golf course enthusiast in 1927.







Thank you, RT, for the articles.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2003, 10:24:17 PM by P_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re:Chas Ambrose, Max Behr and Tom Simpson (1927)
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2003, 10:04:19 PM »
"You may not agree with the text, but I think you have to agree that the magazines were a good deal more interesting for the golf course enthusiast in 1927.

Paul;

That's most definitely true. Can you imagine today's readers of Golf Digest magazine having the interest or sophistication to read through articles such as that?

As you know I'm a fan of Max Behr and a student of some of his thinking and philosophies to do with golf and architecture. That doesn't mean, though, that I agree with everything he said or even understand it. But I'm fascinated by the directions his thoughts took him and in the depths they went.

I believe more than ever now that Behr had to have been inspired in some of these basic architectural philosophies of his by the earlier writing of Arnold Haultain. It's just that Behr took some of what Haultain merely touched on and took it to some remarkable lengths in an a priori attempt to basically prove in a series of interconnected essays some underlying truths about golf, golfers and golf architecture.

His whole idea of the distinctions of golf as a "sport" and golf as a "game" and how that impacts golf architecture and golfers' reactions to it is really remarkable. This is the subject that Geoff Shackelford is reviewing and writing about now.

Behr was interested in a number of fundamentals and how they related to golf architecture.

One was an analysis of man's reaction to what he perceived to be man-made vs what he percieved to be created by nature. Behr tried to draw the conclusion that the golfer, even what he called 'the veriest tyro', was much less likely to be critical of what he perceived to be natural or looking like Nature than he would be to what he percieved to be put before him by some other man to test him.

Another was how the natural forces of wind and water worked upon the land to render landforms permanent or more permanent than others. Obviously structural integrity as well as the permancy and look of it was important to him in how it applied to architecture.

The problems Behr encountered both then and now is he was  a very deep thinker as well as unfortunately a sort of convoluted and eccentric writer. Both obviously contribute to him being misunderstood or just dismissed both then and now.

Someone like Rich Goodale tends to completely dismiss Behr or make light of his ideas if he thinks he can challenge even an isolated assumption Behr may have made in Behr's a priori attempt to draw some interesting conclusions about golf and architecture.  

What Rich Goodale unfortunately suffers from bigtime, in my opinion when it comes to understanding Max Behr, is both an intellectual arrogance of his own as well as an intellectual laziness when it comes to taking the time to understand where Behr was coming from and attempting to go with his essays.

Rich constantly tries to say that no golf course can be said to look completely natural particularly when it comes to features such as tees, greens, fairways and sand bunkering in certain parts of the world that are not indigenous. He seems to constantly fail to comprehend that Max Behr EXCEPTED features such as those from the capacity to look natural and spoke of their naturalness or the look of it only in degree.

It would appear that Charles Ambrose missed that point of Behr's too when he mentioned in the article above that to British eyes some of the bunkering Behr drew may not have appeared wholly natural looking.

Again, Behr spoke of and wrote about some of these things only in degrees of looking natural. The supreme irony was that Behr and others of his contemporaries, probably most notably Alister Mackenzie, were simply trying to develop a philosophy in architecture to ever increase naturalness and the look of it in their man-made features and the lines of them as the impliments and possibliites and the tools of their trade and art allowed for in the future.

That is why I personally feel that Mackenzie reached the greatest heights of encorporating naturalness into architecture before things came to a halt around the crash and depression.

However, there's good news in my opinon. I think the likes of Hanse, Doak, Coore & Crenshaw and some others of their architectural style and type have now actually surprassed Mackenzie (and also his contemporaries Colt, Alison et al) in using those advanced tools in many ways to create even more natural looking golf architecture.

But still there will be some now as back then who don't understand or don't care. Perhaps even Behr was wrong about the importance of naturalness in architecture and all that meant. But perhaps he wasn't wrong, perhaps he was right and that may be one of the reasons we are seeing such an interesting renaissance in a particular look and style of architecture today.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2003, 11:16:57 PM by TEPaul »

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chas Ambrose, Max Behr and Tom Simpson (1927)
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2003, 10:17:21 PM »
Tom

Something went wrong, has it not come through?


It's interesting that Ambrose chooses to highlights differences between the British an US schools of architecture.  I've seen this before in the magazines of the 1910-25 period.   I don't feel that Behr has necessarily been given enough scope to explain his ideas; eventhough Simpson's ideas seem very sound to my mind.



can't get to heaven with a three chord song

ForkaB

Re:Chas Ambrose, Max Behr and Tom Simpson (1927)
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2003, 03:49:35 AM »
Paul

Great stuff, as usual.  Agree that Simpson's approach and comments are very thoughtful and illuminating.  I await Behr's reply.

Tom

I'm sure glad that the only people who are "like Rich Goodale" exist only in your mind.  I, for one, would sure hate to live in a world populated by such morons.

PS--glad to see that you finally took up my suggestion and read Haultain.  Let me know when you are ready to try to fill some more of those gaps in your golfing education that we have spoken about before.  I'm here to help.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chas Ambrose, Max Behr and Tom Simpson (1927)
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2003, 10:03:43 AM »
Thanks for the replies.  I will make a concerted effort to get my head around Behr's writing;  there's certainly a lot of it and I just need more time.

Anyone think of famous holes that use a mound/hollow similar to Simpson's solution?  It certainly appears to be an elegant solution.

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

ForkaB

Re:Chas Ambrose, Max Behr and Tom Simpson (1927)
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2003, 11:29:47 AM »
Paul

Don't try too hard to get your head around Behr's writings.  If you aren't careful you might end up like one of the hapless extras in that cult classic "Scanners" whose heads exploded--or even worse, Tom Paul.....

More seriously, I thought that there was a Behr reply to Amrose awaiting us.  No?

PS--I loved that mound and hollow combo, too.  Reminds me a bit of Olympic Lake and Pacific Dunes and Dornoch and a lot of Friar's Head.  Maybe Coore is the best modern proponent of that concept.

TEPaul

Re:Chas Ambrose, Max Behr and Tom Simpson (1927)
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2003, 12:50:01 PM »
"Paul
Don't try too hard to get your head around Behr's writings.  If you aren't careful you might end up like one of the hapless extras in that cult classic "Scanners" whose heads exploded--or even worse, Tom Paul...."

Rich:

That's a bit of advice that you'd do well to only reserve for yourself--Paul Turner will do just fine with Max Behr's essays and his architectural ideas and philosophy. You, on the other hand, are obviously incapable of understanding him so best not to take the time to try. As we used to say, the man is six steps ahead and around the corner from you on architectural subjects so better for you to just let him go and keep quipping that he doesn't know what he's talking about although you've probably not taken the time to read him carefully but again even if you did it would obviously be fruitless.

Just remember--golf and its architecture is a great big game and there really is room in it for everyone--

For you it's not necessary to know much more than a hole is a hole is a hole!    ;)

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chas Ambrose, Max Behr and Tom Simpson (1927)
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2003, 02:14:45 PM »
Rich

I haven't got the articles yet.  Hopefully on Monday, if Behr does indeed reply.  Never saw scanners, but I remember the video cover well enough!

PS
You two seem to be bickering even more than usual?  Are you still mates?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

ForkaB

Re:Chas Ambrose, Max Behr and Tom Simpson (1927)
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2003, 03:07:28 PM »
Paul

Look forward to it.

PS--I thought I was doing a public service in responding to Tom's bickering as he doesn't seem to have Pat Mucci to kick around much any more.  I'll stop.

TEPaul

Re:Chas Ambrose, Max Behr and Tom Simpson (1927)
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2003, 03:19:44 PM »
Bickering? What do you mean?

I'm not bickering with Rich at all. All I'm doing is telling him I think he's clueless when he says the things he does about Max Behr and his essays. I doubt he's ever even read them--maybe just a smattering here and there.

If he wants to be critical of the man and cogent about it the very first order of business is to read what he wrote. And in the case of Max Behr--that might mean a number of times.

I do think Rich suffers from a form of intellectual arrogance on many things to do with golf architecture, particularly Behr which really is intellectual laziness if he won't even bother to take the time to read diligently what he wrote.

T_MacWood

Re:Chas Ambrose, Max Behr and Tom Simpson (1927)
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2003, 10:39:38 PM »
Paul
What do you know about Ambrose? He seems to be a very astute observer of golf architecture...what was his position with golf illustrated....was he ever editor? I knew as an artist and illustrater, but obviously he was a fine writer too.

TEPaul

Re:Chas Ambrose, Max Behr and Tom Simpson (1927)
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2003, 10:33:30 PM »
Paul:

What happened to Behr's response to Simpson (Ambrose)? Do you think it got lost in the mail in the 1920s?

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chas Ambrose, Max Behr and Tom Simpson (1927)
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2003, 08:32:03 AM »
Gents

The USGA doesn't have the editions I need (Russell Talley sent these to me).  So unless he or Tommy can source the reply, we're left hanging!

Ambrose wrote plenty of articles for GI and was a fine draughstman.  He was definitely within the inner circle of the early heathland architects and wrote profiles of them, very early on (1910), just when everything was starting to pick up speed for golf course architecture.  He didn't design anything.  But I believe he may have been the club secretary at Worplesdon.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song