Scottish Independence

[Marty Bonnar]

Mike, she also needs to be 'resident' AND 'registered to vote'. I doubt if she'll meet either of those if she's only here temporarily.
Cheers,
M.

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,

I suspect in the case of a no vote there might be a lot of pressure for an English parliament.

Jon

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike, she also needs to be 'resident' AND 'registered to vote'. I doubt if she'll meet either of those if she's only here temporarily.
Cheers,
M.

Thanks. I was skeptical but it was not the right environment to question what she said.

Cheers.

[Rich Goodale]

Mike

As per Wikipedia, your friend (if a German citizen) will have a vote:

Under the terms of the 2010 Draft Bill, the following people would be entitled to vote in the referendum:[17]

    British citizens who are resident in Scotland;
    citizens of the 53 other Commonwealth countries who are resident in Scotland;
    citizens of the 27 other European Union countries who are resident in Scotland;
    members of the House of Lords who are resident in Scotland;
    Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the British Armed Forces or with Her Majesty's Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.

I will not (unless of course I become ennobled in the next Honours list).....

[Jon Wiggett]

Mike

As per Wikipedia, your friend (if a German citizen) will have a vote:

Under the terms of the 2010 Draft Bill, the following people would be entitled to vote in the referendum:[17]

    British citizens who are resident in Scotland;
    citizens of the 53 other Commonwealth countries who are resident in Scotland;
    citizens of the 27 other European Union countries who are resident in Scotland;
    members of the House of Lords who are resident in Scotland;
    Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the British Armed Forces or with Her Majesty's Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.

I will not (unless of course I become ennobled in the next Honours list).....

and if on the electoral role!

Jon

[Colin Macqueen]

Yes Marty these conditions rule me out here in The Antipodes.

Sir Rihcard Goodale has a certain wring to it!

Of course, Jon, the newly minted lord would have to be registered to vote. Knowing how inept these scions are he (or the valet!) may well have omitted to do this and be a tad miffed when it comes to voting having got the hard part done!

Cheers Colin

[Rich Goodale]

An ex-poster asked me about this topic and I ranted thusly:

Dear Anonymous

If I had a vote (and I do not because I do not have UK citizenship, and never will, even though dual-citizenship is now possible) I'd vote for independence.  Why, well most simply, Scotland IS a nation (and was until the Union of 1707).  The people are different, the laws are different, the outlook on the world is different, and the geology is different than the rest of the UK.  The only reason the Scots are in this Union is because they (particularly their ruling class) were bankrupt in 1707, due largely to a catastrophic attempt to create their own colonies in the new world (The Darien Scheme).  At that time the crowns had already been united for almost 100 years, so when England offered the landed gentry significant bribes (absolution of debts, peerages in England, Wales and Ireland, etc.) in exchange for full political and financial union they snapped it up like the junk yard dogs that they were.

In the first 100 years of Union, things were hunky dory.  The rest of the UK (rUK) stabilised Scotland finances through a common currency (managed through the Bank of England, which btw was founded by a Scot named Patterson), and Scotland gave rUK freee access to a place where they could experience fresh air and learn play exotic sports like curling and golf, as well as intellectual access to the Enlightenment, through the works of Hume, Smith, Burns, Hutton, et. al.  The next ~100-200) years were OK too, as the Scots contributed inventions to rUK to develop (e.g. the Steam Engine (Watt), Television (Baird), Electromagnetic Theory (Maxwell), etc. etc.) and received access to the colonies (tobacco, rum and slaves) as well as to the fruits of the industrial revolution that they helped create.  The whole of the UK prospered, to varying degrees.

The first thing to change this cosy relationship was the inconvenient fact of the 1st World War (called the "Great" War over here), which not only killed a disproportionately large number of young Scotsmen, but also set in motion the later events which would transform the UK from THE world power to a whimpering shadow of the same.  Without Indians and Nigerians and Guyanese to lord over, who could the rUK exploit.  Well, the Scots and the Irish  were easy targets, since they had lost so much of their youth in WWI (vis a vis the Scots) and in the Potato Famines (vis a vis the Irish), and they were small and weak, at least compared to the soon to be rump of the British Empire, so an era of exploitation began, which continues today.  The rUk thinks that they are being generous to the Scots, but that only fools those Scots who get great benefit from the current political structure, particularly the non-Working Class (without whose support the Labour Party could never win a general election in the UK) and the Posh Class, who give their support to the rUK who allow them to lord over vast acreages of land and plum jobs in the financial sectors without any particularly world-class skills or expertise.

The people who will lose from a Yes vote on Independence are:

-The non-Working class who will eventually be brought to understand the relationship between effort and reward,
-The posh class who will sooner come to understand that their 300 year free lunch is over, and most importantly,
-The politicos, none of who have the brains or social skills to be elected as deputy dogcatcher in East Podunk, USA

Those of us in the middle, will survive and eventually thrive.  If they let us.

All the best

Rich

PS--yes I know this is maybe even a bit more than OTT, but I'll stand by my analysis, until intelligently and graciously contradicted.

rfg

[Alfie Ward]

Mr Goodale (& your wee Lowland wifey)

What a rant ! I'd give you the vote right now!

Contrary to some of the shit being posted relating to this Independence issue, YOU have summed things up rather nicely IMHO.

Today we hear that North sea oil and gas is going to be like a noose round our necks if we vote YES ?
No doubt will we will have future inclusions of Whisky exports ; Fishing Industry (what's left of it !) ; our agriculture ; offshore renewables potential ; our continuing inventiveness in all the sciences ; Tourism and GOLF Tourism Yes ! ; etc........................

People on here need to get it out of their system that Alex Salmond IS NOT the "Yes" vote. He is but a mere player in the opportunity brought to the peoples' of Scotland to have the democratic right to choose Independence - or not as the case may be ?

So. Please keep the discussion clean whether you're + or --   thanks.

[Tony_Muldoon]

The first thing to change this cosy relationship was the inconvenient fact of the 1st World War (called the "Great" War over here), which not only killed a disproportionately large number of young Scotsmen, but also set in motion the later events which would transform the UK from THE world power to a whimpering shadow of the same.  Without Indians and Nigerians and Guyanese to lord over, who could the rUK exploit.  Well, the Scots and the Irish  were easy targets, since they had lost so much of their youth in WWI (vis a vis the Scots) and in the Potato Famines (vis a vis the Irish), and they were small and weak, at least compared to the soon to be rump of the British Empire, so an era of exploitation began, which continues today.  rfg

I would appreciate it if you would expand your thoughts on this. Strikes me its the sort of thing 'nationalists' in both countries are happy to believe and maybe some flesh on those bones might get to the nub of the problem.

(NB Proportionately the largest casulties in WW1 were in the Junior Officer class, something that many historians chose to ignore.)



Also thank you for allowing me an excuse to bring this thread On Topic.

Watt did not invent the Steam Engine, he refined the earlier ideas of an Englishman and he did profit from it's use in mills. The reason this is pertinent is because he recorded in his diary that the way to do it (something to do with a vacuum chamber and condenser if my memory is not completely shot) occurrred to him as he took a walk past Glasgow Golf Club!

[Mark Chaplin]

The best figures I can find are;

4.06m English were recruited to the colours and 515k were killed or 1:7.77

557k Scots recruited and 74k killed or 1:7.5

272k Welsh recruited and 35k killed or 1:7.77

If these figures are anywhere near accurate 2400 additional Scots called to the colours died than the same ratio of English or Welsh. 2400 tragedies but in nearly 5 million military men a very small percentage. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Rich,

wow, I am aghast at the level of your last post.

Alfie,

you have hit one of the problems for the yes campaign. Most people do see Alex Salmond as the face/focus of the campaign and how he is perceived will affect the way many people vote. The other problem is that the yes campaign are failing to set out clear plans on both the monetary side and what happens to a Scotland outside the EU.

Jon

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Alfie

Great to hear a real Scot supportive of my alien observations.

Tony

I think you are thnking about Newcomen, who built the first steam powered engine ~100 years before Watt.  It was better than horses at dragging water out of mine shafts, but not very much so.  When 75+ years later Watt added the condenser and further improvements, the industrial revolution began.  Blame Mr. Watt for all the Dark Satanic Mills of the later Victorian age, and not Mr, Newcomen.  To say that Newcomen invented the steam engine as we know it today is the same as saying that John Logie Baird invented television (just to give an example where even the Scots are known to exaggerate their impact on history and technology....)

Mark

Thanks for the beancounting of WWI deaths which proves (if only slightly) my bloviation.  Far too many British young people died for a cause they had no understanding of (of course neither did the people who sent them to their death, including the infamous Scot Field Marshall Haig).

John

Sorry you are aghast.  I remain ghast.  I do agree with you that Salmond is an agitator rather than a visonary or a leader.  If the Yes vote succeeds, we are going to left bereft of leadership, and it is going to be a messy but ultimately uplifitng transition from a dependency culture to an independence mentality.

Rich

[Tony_Muldoon]

Thanks, Alfie

Great to hear a real Scot supportive of my alien observations.

Tony

I think you are thnking about Newcomen, who built the first steam powered engine ~100 years before Watt.  It was better than horses at dragging water out of mine shafts, but not very much so.  When 75+ years later Watt added the condenser and further improvements, the industrial revolution began.  Blame Mr. Watt for all the Dark Satanic Mills of the later Victorian age, and not Mr, Newcomen.  To say that Newcomen invented the steam engine as we know it today is the same as saying that John Logie Baird invented television (just to give an example where even the Scots are known to exaggerate their impact on history and technology....)

Mark

Thanks for the beancounting of WWI deaths which proves (if only slightly) my bloviation.  Far too many British young people died for a cause they had no understanding of (of course neither did the people who sent them to their death, including the infamous Scot Field Marshall Haig).

John

Sorry you are aghast.  I remain ghast.  I do agree with you that Salmond is an agitator rather than a visonary or a leader.  If the Yes vote succeeds, we are going to left bereft of leadership, and it is going to be a messy but ultimately uplifitng transition from a dependency culture to an independence mentality.

Rich

Rich


I don't disagree with what you say, so there's no sematic argument there (you added the qualification "as we know it today").

However I'm more interested when  you said "an era of exploitation began which continues to day".   I am familiar with such claims but I can never get many hard facts to show how the English, Welsh (and in this case) Northern Irish are continuing to profit at the expense of the peoples living in the northern bit of mainland UK.

This is important as it's at the heart (or at least behind much) of the emotional appeal for independence.  And no matter what predictions are made for the consequence of a yes or no vote, I do believe people will be voting with their hearts.  To my mind you (and others) have a case to make.

[Tony_Muldoon]

To say that Newcomen invented the steam engine as we know it today is the same as saying that John Logie Baird invented television (just to give an example where even the Scots are known to exaggerate their impact on history and technology....)

Rich

And apparently non
Scots too!  

 The next ~100-200) years were OK too, as the Scots contributed inventions to rUK to develop (e.g. the Steam Engine (Watt), Television (Baird),


Rich

[Lou_Duran]

The people who will lose from a Yes vote on Independence are:

-The non-Working class who will eventually be brought to understand the relationship between effort and reward,
-The posh class who will sooner come to understand that their 300 year free lunch is over, and most importantly,
-The politicos, none of who have the brains or social skills to be elected as deputy dogcatcher in East Podunk, USA

Those of us in the middle, will survive and eventually thrive.  If they let us.

Please assure the folks in the first group that in the U.S., hope and opportunity for their lifestyle preferences are on the upswing.  The ruling classes right at this moment are in the process of cementing a new ethic- work is neither an important or necessary part of life.  If fellow human beings wish to use their time to think, write pretty things, play with their music, or just sit around getting high, listening to the sounds, our "rich" society can certainly provide them with free shelter, food, medical services, and a mobile phone SANS any disparaging moral judgements.  Crossing the ocean may be a bit more difficult than fording the Rio Grande, but with or without amnesty, the developing, highbrow zeitgeist for this type is very promising.

For those in the second group, there is also a place in the boat if they can bring their considerable assets with them.  Otherwise, they are too few in number to be of political/electoral consequence, while posing attitudinal problems too messy for American society to deal with.

There is no hope here for the third group as we already have ample supply of their type vying for the high remuneration/low output/zero accountability positions available at all levels of government (plus we Americans are suckers for British accents, and they would have an "unfair" advantage for elected office).  On this basis alone, the smart money should be on the "No" vote.    

[Niall C]

Mr Goodale (& your wee Lowland wifey)

What a rant ! I'd give you the vote right now!

Contrary to some of the shit being posted relating to this Independence issue, YOU have summed things up rather nicely IMHO.

Today we hear that North sea oil and gas is going to be like a noose round our necks if we vote YES ?
No doubt will we will have future inclusions of Whisky exports ; Fishing Industry (what's left of it !) ; our agriculture ; offshore renewables potential ; our continuing inventiveness in all the sciences ; Tourism and GOLF Tourism Yes ! ; etc........................

People on here need to get it out of their system that Alex Salmond IS NOT the "Yes" vote. He is but a mere player in the opportunity brought to the peoples' of Scotland to have the democratic right to choose Independence - or not as the case may be ?

So. Please keep the discussion clean whether you're + or --   thanks.

Alfie

Salmond might not be the YES vote but he's the guy who is going to be negotiating the terms of the separation in the event of a YES vote so he will largely determine the shape of an independant Scotland, and thats what worries me given his performance to date. Rich in his diatribe seems to think that the working middle classes will be better off which seems to me to be wishful thinking. Salmond is basically from the same cloth as Labour and all that entails eg. high taxation which will largely rest on the middle classes. After all, who's going to pay for all the give aways he's planning.

Niall

[Rich Goodale]

To say that Newcomen invented the steam engine as we know it today is the same as saying that John Logie Baird invented television (just to give an example where even the Scots are known to exaggerate their impact on history and technology....)

Rich

And apparently non
Scots too!  

 The next ~100-200) years were OK too, as the Scots contributed inventions to rUK to develop (e.g. the Steam Engine (Watt), Television (Baird),


Rich

Tony

Please do not try to tell my wife that John Logie Baird was not a Scot!  It would be dangerous for you to do so....

Rich

[Niall C]

Rich

Re post 131, as you rightly say Scotland was in a bad position following the Darien debacle so why wouldn't a Union make sense ? After all, according to your analysis everything went well for the first 200 years, that seems like a fabulous result to me !!

As for your assertion that the English on mass have been exploited the Scots (and presumably the Irish and Welsh), that is barely worth the analysis. You mentioned Patterson and there were plenty like him who have prospered in the Union. Even in recent times an analysis of the political and business classes shows that Scotland has punched well above its weight.

You also refer to the differences such as Scots law. The fact that it has survived after 300 years tells me the Union hasn't been the one way street you suggest. I'm Scottish and proud to be Scottish. I'm also British and see no contradiction in that. I don't need independence to make me feel more Scottish or to make me a "real" Scot. Like many other Scots I have a strong enough sense of my Scottish identity to not need the trappings of "power", particularly when that would leave myself and the country worse off.  

The only reason I would have for voting for independence is if offered a marked improvement to what we have at the moment. So far the YES case has been so feeble as to present me with no choice. With 6 months left there is still time but Salmond will need to play a blinder of a second half if he is to get a result  

Niall

[Niall C]

Tony

To be pedantic, Watt referred in a letter to coming up with the idea of refining the steam engine while walking past the Golf House at Glasgow Green. However Glasgow Green was and is common land so didn't belong to Glasgow GC. The just used the green along with anyone else who wanted to use it for hanging out there washing, playing football, or as in one occasion by Bonnie Prince Charlie as a location to muster his troops.

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

The only reason I would have for voting for independence is if offered a marked improvement to what we have at the moment. So far the YES case has been so feeble as to present me with no choice. With 6 months left there is still time but Salmond will need to play a blinder of a second half if he is to get a result  

Niall

Niall,

I may not be Scottish but I too have invested very much into Scotland. I, like you have not been convinced by the yes vote. I suspect that Mr. Salmond is hoping that the great patriotic pageant of Bannock Burn combined with some clever advertising will swing the vote.

Had to laugh this morning when listening to Five Live discussing independence and the oil industry. The SNP representative was talking about Scotland having the right to 90% of the oil and gas. She did not want to answer what the position of the SNP would be if the Shetland Isles wanted to go independent and the fact that then most of the oil would belong to them. Had to laugh

Jon

[Ryan Coles]

What sort of messed up society ensures that all its citizens, however poor has some form of shelter, a basic education and free healthcare? It's crazy.

The children of such families should have worked harder to be born into families with greater means.

[Tony_Muldoon]

What sort of messed up society ensures that all its citizens, however poor has some form of shelter, a basic education and free healthcare? It's crazy.

The children of such families should have worked harder to be born into families with greater means.

Ryan

please help me rearrange the following

jack Thread nowhere! going   

[Ryan Coles]

What sort of messed up society ensures that all its citizens, however poor has some form of shelter, a basic education and free healthcare? It's crazy.

The children of such families should have worked harder to be born into families with greater means.

Ryan

please help me rearrange the following

jack Thread nowhere! going   

There is nothing more unedifying than rich people complaining about the poor.

How I'd do?

Badly?

Oh well, back to Scottish Independence.

[Mark Chaplin]

Interesting debate on radio today with the Nationalists claiming the UK government had squandered oil revenues, they pointed to Norway who have brilliant public services and a huge oil fund of investments. They ignored the fact that basic taxation in Norway is 40-50%.

The SNP also promise to raise the tax rate for high earners £150k + from 45%, apparently only 12000 Scots pay the higher rate, so the extra tax won't solve the ills of the world.

[Alfie Ward]

Regarding golf tourism and Trump...............oh sorry, wrong website ?

Hi Tony, hope you're not getting hot and bothered wi the Scottish problem.

Niall,
Totally respect all your comments and the fact that you appear to keeping an open mind in the debate. Isn't it bloody marvellous that the whole world is focussed on Scotland !
Someone will have to negotiate after a Yes vote and I believe Alex Salmond (as First Minister) will quite rightly be involved in the process - as will Denis Canavan, Jim Sillars, the Yes campaign in general, all our Labour, Liberal, SNP, Green, MP's and MSP's etc.......
Whether those who have the vote have the guts, the will, motivation, determination etc......we will just have to wait and see. If anyone had asked me 3 months past what the chances were of a Yes vote, I would (DID) say that we didn't have a snowballs chance in hell. Then Ed Balls joins a Westminster alliance and my laughs could be heard in faraway Strathavon.
For me, as a lifelong Nationalist, I've always wanted to see an Independent Scotland in order to prove that we can be better, fairer, and perhaps....even a bit wealthier. But if someone offered me Indie right now for an extra tenner a week, I'd bite their hands off !

Jon,
as above, and I actually agree that Salmond is PERCEIVED as being the Yes vote. This is something that should be made clear to the electorate by the rest of the Yes campaign that it wrong to perceive this. (and Salmond has actually quoted as such himself !)
So don't laugh too hard Jon - you're face might crack. And you don't want to look like me  

Oh. the monetary thing. It's been stated a thousand times - we would like to negotiate with UK gov't on keeping the joint pound IF we get the Yes vote. The No campaigners, on the other hand, have given NO assurances to the people of Scotland on what happens if it's a No vote ? Pot, kettle, black ?

But there's a long way to go and hopefully a lot more Labour politicians shooting themselves in the foot.