Sunningdale, lost holes.

[Tony_Muldoon]

There was a thread recently about Simpson’s work here in the 1930’s; with the help of the Club History and some recently rediscovered pictures I can relate some more.

The ‘New’ Course was laid out by their old Secretary, Colt, and opened for play in November 1923.  From the outset holes 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10 were criticised – mainly for being too hilly.  These holes were to the right of the10th hole on the Old Course.  (There is a description form memory in the history)



In 1934 the club commissioned a report from Simpson & Company. “I have attempted – so far as the terrain at Sunningdale permitted – to introduce the spirit of St Andrews, the worlds only real golf course. Further my intention has been to counter the mischievous results from playing with graded clubs and an altogether abominable golf ball.”

They accepted his recommendations for new ground over the back of the 5th green and the holes were ready for play the next year. IN honour of the Silver Jubilee of King George the Vth the course was renamed The Jubilee.  (A curious echo of St Andrews).



This has recently come to light as possibly the only evidence of the holes.



 The holes however were not popular. (No reason is given.) (A few other greens he made were also abandoned.)



It is also not clear when they stopped referring to it as the Jubilee course – but the King died one year after his Jubilee.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Another lost hole.

From the club history.  Note the open terrain and the square green!  This is Park's work, but the hole was replaced by Colt in 1907 and has been changed since.


Today


This next shot is from some time prior to the mid 1930’s – Can anyone identify this ‘typical green’?



More mid 1930’s pics. 






18th old.

[Sean_A]

Tony

Quite interesting.  I was looking at the routing of the Simpson holes.  I wonder if his #7 Jubilee was the site of the current #7 New?  Also, it looks like #8 Jubilee could have been routed right over what is now #6 New green then turning left.  Also, what is the story with that house cut off in the photo of the #8 Jubilee?  There is no house there now - is there?  #9 Jubilee must have been quite a slog to get back up the hill to the current #9 New.  Considering how good the current #6 New is, this might have been a great trade off of holes. 

I am guessing that the "typical" green is on the Old course. 

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Tony

Those photos are a very nice find.

TM's piece on Darwin has Simpson plans of the Jubilee 6th and 9th:



For the Jubilee 9th, I think you can see the ditch in Google Earth ; it's about 100 yards in front of the current 6th tee (from memory).  The green would be around here too,  in front of the current 6th tee.

I can't ID that mystery "typical green" but perhaps the 11th New i.e. the 12th in the left background going up to that ridge.

Colt's original lost holes are a similar mystery.  I tracked down a pic of the original 7th which looked to be a great hole, see below.  I've seen pretty good pics of the original 8th and 9th holes too,  but haven't managed to copy these yet.  These 3 holes were completely lost but under the last Colt/Morrison redo in 1937, the 10th was reinstated (from a different tee) and their redone 9th is roughly where the original 6th was.

I would love to walk Sunningdale New with these old pics/plans one day and try and trace these old holes.


Spectacular 7th.

Regarding the 13th Old.   I'm sure you already know that Park's was blind over the ridge (above the current 12th green) to that square green.  I think the current green is a softened version of Colt's, since in the 1960s it had quite a strong left-right ridge.  And at one point early on Colt had a bunker slap bang in the green, surrounded by putting surface (15+ years before Riviera's 6th).  I think the green surface is a bit bland now.

Cool to see an old pic of 14th New.  A filled in bunker or two, which you can still see now in the heather,  but the green looks right.

I think that final pic is the 17th Old rather than the 18th.

[Sean_A]

Paul

You are right, the pic is 17 Old, not 18. 

I am curious about your 7 New pic - I am assuming its New rather than Jubilee (as this was a par 3).  Has the hole been altered other than the bunkering taken out?  The land to the right doesn't look like now at all - it seems to be higher.  The shape of the hole and green don't look quite right either. 

I spose the mystery pic could be #10 & 11 New, but again, the land to the left doesn't look like #11 and I don't recall the pronounced uphill nature that the photo depicts.  The general lie of the land looks to be similar to #1 & 18 New though #1 green doesn't look like that. 

Everytime I see old pix of Sunningdale the more it seems like there is very little of Park Jr left in the details. 

Ciao   

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

That 7th hole pic is NLE.  It was one of Colt's original holes that were abandoned when Simpson did his "Jubilee" redo.  The tee was from (roughly) the ridge to the left of, and above, the current 9th New green.  You can see that the hole then went down hill and sharply up to the green.  The hole was routed roughly  in the opposite direction to the 10th Old.

Looking at that old pic.  The hole looks a cracker and I wonder if it was such a good idea to start redesigning in 1934.  eventhough it finally resulted in having one other great hole, the current 6th.

[James Bennett]

TM's piece on Darwin has Simpson plans of the Jubilee 6th:

This hole looks to have some similarity to a mirror image of The Old Course #16.

Nice thread guys.

James B

[Tom Kelly]

I've been trying to get my head around the old Colt and Simpson holes again as I've been meaning to go and have a wander around the heath at some point soon.

I think I've got most of it but....there's still a few questions;

Does anyone know for certain if Simpson's 7th hole played to the current 7th green?

Did the 6th therefore play to somewhere in-between the current 6th and 8th fairways?

Was Simpson's 10th essentially a longer (530 yard) version of the current 9th, or Colts original 6th? Was Colt's 6th the current 9th green?

This must mean the 11th was played from a different tee nearer to the current 9th green?

Any clues?!

[Thomas Dai]

Yee olde photos of Sunningdale show the property to be virtually tree-less. I read somewhere recently that Harry Colt instigated the planting of trees at Sunningdale. Is this correct?
atb

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

"Typical" green looks like it could be 10 new