[Ran Morrissett]

For me, it would be that there was a fairly big change in the make up of the Panel and yet ... only four courses were added/dropped in the world top 100 list.

What do you make of that? Is a logical conclusion that there is some kind of a broad consensus re: the world's truly great courses?

If that's the case, and the world top 100 list is going to remain somewhat static in the years to come, I wonder if GOLF should consider expanding it to maybe 200 for the sake of excitment that comes with more ebb and flow?

Cheers,

[ed_getka]

What were the big changes in the panel makeup?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Ran, it really is hard for even the best of us to see a large number of courses in a given 2 or 3 year period. Therefore only a small number of panelists see enough to make real change in data. 2nd There are not alot of Cuscowilla's or Pacific Dunes being built each year. Thus one should not expect a whole lot of movement in any given year. I was shocked to see San Francisco GC go down after real improvements were made. 3rd I am of the belief that the print media has gotten progressively less motivated over the last 20 years. This is less so in golf but still is to a degree. I feel promotion and hype have confussed the rating game somewhat too. There are less raters and writers working had to make the system as accurate as something this subjective can be.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Ed,

A significant # of panelists (19 sounds familiar) from the last panel were dropped, with replacements added.  Bryant Gumbel, Matt Lauer, and Bob McCoy are amongst those dropped.  See the previous list (GM's web site) and compare to the new list in the other thread.


Ran,

My biggest surprise is the inclusion of Torrey Pines (S) on the list, and so high (#57).  I haven't played it, but so many here call it drab and boring (and now deathfully long) with some nice views, calling the North course the better of the two at TP (with even better views).  Give a U.S. Open a course and watch it rocket up the standings.  Look at how Bethpage jumped up so far (much more deserving, of course).

[Jim Franklin]

Seeing San Francisco GC go down is the biggest surprise, but I agree that expanding the rankings to 200 would be a huge success. I do not think I would go for more than 200, but I think the additional courses would add to the excitement of playing a "ranked" course.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Torrey South is a great example of the injustice that hype and promotion give to an otherwise average golf course that happens to be by the sea.

[JLahrman]

Could it also be that as more and more rankings are published, panelists are pre-conditioned to believe that courses are deserving of a certain rank?  In other words, "Whoop Whoop CC was 33rd in the world last year and several other panelists loved it.  I just played it and didn't think that much of it, but surely they weren't nuts.  Maybe I played it on a poor day.  I'll give it a couple extra points."  The old follow the herd philosophy.  Of course, this could have the opposite effect.  If a course doesn't match a panelist's expectation but is still a good layout, the panelist could penalize it too much as the course has been a letdown.

Behavioral course ranking, anyone?

[Jim_Michaels]

Have not played Friarshead, but can Hidden Creek be that much better, given what so many of you have said?

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

From what I could gleen from the two lists, these were the panelists that were dropped:

Freddy Alcantara, Venezuela
Isao Aoki, Japan
Diane Bailey, England
Richie Benaud, Australia
Prakash Bhandari, India
Michael Bonallack, Scotland
Sam Cantor, Florida
Geoffrey Cornish, Massachusetts
Steve Donahue, Connecticut
Alice Dye, Florida
David Feherty, Ireland
James A. Frank, New Jersey
Miki Fujioka, Japan
Bryant Gumbel, New York
Frank M. Harris, Florida
Duke Ishikawa, Japan
Matt Lauer, New York
Bob Lurie, California
Pierluigi Mancinelli, Italy
Brian McCallen, Connecticut
Bob McCoy, Florida
Charles Mechem, Ohio
Tim Moraghan, New Jersey
James W. Nantz, Connecticut
George Peper, New York
Ron Riemer, Illinois
George Roberts, California
Thos Rohr, Hawaii
Stephen Ross, Canada
Doug Roxburgh, Canada
Anne Sander, California
Curtis Strange, Virginia
Mark Wilson, England
C.A. Wimpfheimer, New York


These were the panelists that were added:
George Bedard - Canada
Prakash Bhandari - India
Michel Bonallack - Scotland
Malcolm Campbell - Scotland
John R. Dempsey - NC
Marvin A. Franch - Oregon
Alan Heuer - NY
Terry Jastrow - Calif
Bill Jones III - Georgia
Sunil Kappagoda - Conn
James Keegan - Colorado
Samm Klaparda - Calif
Jeff Lewis - NY
Thomas J. Meeks - NJ
Luke Reese - Illinois
Pat Ruddy - Ireland
Mitsutaka Sado - Japan
David V. Smith - Calif

Please excuse any errors.  I just did a quick cut and paste in MS Word so there might be some minor errors...

[Evan_Green]

I think Pac Dunes at #11 in the US is a huge surprise- it would seem it would be so hard for a new course to penetrate that far up in the ranks so soon- although it is a hell of a track and I guess thats helps

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jim,

By all accounts, Friar's Head is by far the better course than Hidden Creek, but FH was not eligible for the list, hence why it's not there (I'll bet money it will be on the next list).

[Joel_Stewart]

Jim,

By all accounts, Friar's Head is by far the better course than Hidden Creek, but FH was not eligible for the list, hence why it's not there (I'll bet money it will be on the next list).

Scott:
I don't think Golf Mag has a mandatory waiting time.  If the course is open 5 minutes its eligable.  I would think not enough panelists played it to warrant inclusion?  I know of 4 Golf Magazine panelists that played it last year plus Bob McCoy who is now not a panelist (which is an outrage).  

[Evan_Green]

Personally I care for the Golf Digest top 100 US ratings than the Golf Mag- however GD doesnt have a top 100 world list which i think is a shame

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

I agree with JAL.

And, how many new panelists would counter the existing listings ?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Well we know Pat Ruddy does not promote or hype his own courses. lol lol great addition to the group.

[Joel_Stewart]

Could it also be that as more and more rankings are published, panelists are pre-conditioned to believe that courses are deserving of a certain rank?  In other words, "Whoop Whoop CC was 33rd in the world last year and several other panelists loved it.  I just played it and didn't think that much of it, but surely they weren't nuts.  Maybe I played it on a poor day.  I'll give it a couple extra points."  The old follow the herd philosophy.  Of course, this could have the opposite effect.  If a course doesn't match a panelist's expectation but is still a good layout, the panelist could penalize it too much as the course has been a letdown.

Behavioral course ranking, anyone?

I wouldn't call it behavioral ranking but a guide to playing courses.  As an example, Pat recently went to Oregon, and choose the highest ranked courses in the state, Bandon and Pacific Dunes.  

When I go to Long Island, I normally choose from the top 10 courses on LI.  I've been disappointed many times in courses, and often surprised at a great course and how low its ranked.  I played Newport CC two weeks ago and shocked that its not on Golf Digests top 100 list.  I went to Hawaii once to play Mauna Kea (which is ranked) and hated it so it works both ways.

[cary lichtenstein]

I think CGA should do a top 200, or a 100 classic and 100 modern. Would be very interesting

[THuckaby2]

I'd also love to see them due a Top 100 Public courses....

Let them face all the music the other magazines do.

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

Joel,

Usually, magazines have cutoff dates for when balloting must stop, of which I'm sure was a number of months ago, for printing and tallying reasons.  Friar's Head officially opened just a few months ago, and Ken Bakst told the other magazines that the course was not eligible for ranking because they weren't officially open yet.

[Steve Lapper]

Scott,

    I think you may have gotten it a little wrong. While FH is now "officially" open and the peace pipe has been smoked between the local environmentalists and Ken, the fact remains that Ken, his team, and members simply Don't Care about any rankings! Other than members personally inviting them out on the course, magazine raters, per se, are persona non grata.

   Frankly, I believe that Ken, et.al., have it exactly right. They see no need to appease those commercial operations using their precarious opinion to sell advertising or determine what course is better than another. What's the purpose? The members and management know exactly what they've got and they appreciate it and measure it in its correct perspective (early and youthful).

   I could be wrong, but I'll be surprised if FH ever makes it into the public magazine world of hype and hysteria any time soon.

[Jim_Michaels]

Slapper, the panelists will get to anything worthwhile eventually. Crystal Downs, Seminole, Augusta, Fishers Island...these places don't exactly have public tee times, but they get the recognition for their quality nonetheless. Hyping one's course can accelerate the process and even potentially create a an artificially high initial ranking, but eventually all courses are seen, and most find a reasonable facsimile to the ranking they deserve.

[Steve Lapper]

Jim,

   No doubt you are right. Eventually it will happen and as I said, it will be on the invitation of various members. No hyping or artificial elevation will result from the FH team....thats the point I wanted to add. Thanks.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Steve,

I can understand his noble viewpoint of not caring, but like Jim says, people are gonna see it, especially being on LI so close to GM's and GD's HQ.  Ron Whitten just did a piece on FH a few months ago for GD, so it certainly should get a few GD panelists out there and votes tallied for next year's GD Best New rankings.

[Steve Lapper]

Scott,

  It will be seen, no question about it, but I really wonder whether it will be seen by enough raters to make it to its deserved or relative place. Like Augusta or PVGC, the play policy is absolute member invitation. The Seminole's, Crystal Downs and Fishers Island's all have unaccompanied play policies....something I doubt FH will ever get to. All that said, it will be interesting to see where it falls.

[Jim Franklin]

Scott -

Slapper is right on when he said it is member only invitations at FH. Just because a senior editor reviewed the course certainly did not change FH's opinion of the public rankings. It certainly did not get any GD raters out to the course. I, for one, am very grateful for the opportunity to have played FH and believe it to be worthy of any and all praise it receives.

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