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Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #100 on: January 24, 2022, 09:56:12 PM »
Richard,


Thank you for the detailed answer regarding the 7th hole.  Here is a blown up version of the 7th hole from a 1922 Golfers Magazine advertisement.  This aerial is shown on the first page of this thread if anyone wants a clearer look. I just blew it up to show some of the original features on this hole that faded away over time. There used to be a lot more trouble on and around this fairway back in 1922.





I would also agree with your earlier statement that the layout shown on the first page represents an earlier version of the course.  The layout looks like it used the 1926 aerial as a guide whereas George Bahto’s map in his book was from a later version of the course, closer to the 1974 or 1984 version. I think the culvert near 2 and 8 wasn’t as noticeable in the earlier aerials. If you had never been on the property, you may not know water even existed there.  On some of the early aerials it looks like grass instead of water separating the 2nd tee and the 2nd fairway. The water expanded over time until it became large enough to see on the aerials around 1974.


Bret

Bret,

I am sure it is not just me enjoying your investigative findings showing course modifications on the 7th and 11th holes.  Perhaps if you are up for another challenge you might want to tackle the 16th tee location discrepancy mentioned by Tom Doak in post 3.  Not that this information has to be confirmed but it is undoubtedly true in what Mr. Doak revealed.

This was another topic I felt uncomfortable mentioning at first since my facts are vague.  Superintendent Ben casually mentioned one time to me that the tee box on 16 was relocated during the early years of play.  He did not explain why.  One has to initially think that it seemed that after finishing the 15th it was an unnecessary trek to the 16th tee as shown in the 1924 aerial overlay. It would be interesting to see if the earliest of aerials reveal the Eden template at the initial location. 

Changing the subject, the location of the 15th tee in the 1924 aerial overlay was a surprise to me. If accurate, that tee box was certainly in a odd location considering after finishing the 14th hole one would have to walk skirting the 5th green and 6th tee.  From there it was downhill on a path alongside the final part of the 5th fairway to the tee. The drive from that tee would then have to cross the 5th fairway on to 15th fairway.  I do have to say though the tee location there would undoubtedly keep the hole in a "valley" from start to finish. This is contrary to the Valley template (from what I understand it is) by driving the tee shot down into a valley.  This is yet another investigation in its self. 


Bret Lawrence

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #101 on: January 25, 2022, 09:39:50 AM »
Richard,


I think Tom was just pointing out that the colored overlay of the 1922 aerial had the angle wrong for the 16th hole.  I would definitely agree with this.  I think the orientation of the aerial is set up so we are looking at the 16th green head on, or as it would be played.  This is one of the holes where it is hard to see the tee boxes on the old aerial.  I think if you refer to the layout posted from Missing Links you will see the proper angle into this hole.  I can not speak to whether this tee box was moved or not over the years, without seeing an original scorecard of the course.


What year is your scorecard from Richard?


As for the Valley hole, I would agree there isn’t really a good definition for what a Valley hole entails.  I think it’s more than playing from a high spot to a valley fairway.  Raynor included Valley holes on a large percentage of his courses, so I think there are certain strategic decisions to be made when playing Valley holes.  I think one common theme among Valley holes is the body of the fairway seems to be similar on all of these holes.  The greens tend to have different variations but the tee shot is almost always to a fairway that has a crooked bottleneck feature in the approach.  if you look at the 1922 aerial you can make out a few fairway bunkers on 15 that would have pinched the fairway from the right.  The trees on the left pinched the fairway from the left, making the approach very narrow. If you pair that with the left greenside bunker it forms a crooked bottleneck approach in its original design. I think some of these holes hold up well with time because the farther you hit your tee shot the more precise your line needs to be.  I think the 11th at Yale is a good example that exemplifies this design in its original form. This is all my own speculation on the Valley hole.  It’s very much a feature or design that could use a re-examination.


Richard,  Can you tell us about some amazing shots you may have seen.  Hole-in-one’s, hole-outs or big putts during a high stakes match?


Bret

Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #102 on: January 25, 2022, 01:22:09 PM »
Richard,


I think Tom was just pointing out that the colored overlay of the 1922 aerial had the angle wrong for the 16th hole.  I would definitely agree with this.  I think the orientation of the aerial is set up so we are looking at the 16th green head on, or as it would be played.  This is one of the holes where it is hard to see the tee boxes on the old aerial.  I think if you refer to the layout posted from Missing Links you will see the proper angle into this hole.  I can not speak to whether this tee box was moved or not over the years, without seeing an original scorecard of the course.


What year is your scorecard from Richard?


As for the Valley hole, I would agree there isn’t really a good definition for what a Valley hole entails.  I think it’s more than playing from a high spot to a valley fairway.  Raynor included Valley holes on a large percentage of his courses, so I think there are certain strategic decisions to be made when playing Valley holes.  I think one common theme among Valley holes is the body of the fairway seems to be similar on all of these holes.  The greens tend to have different variations but the tee shot is almost always to a fairway that has a crooked bottleneck feature in the approach.  if you look at the 1922 aerial you can make out a few fairway bunkers on 15 that would have pinched the fairway from the right.  The trees on the left pinched the fairway from the left, making the approach very narrow. If you pair that with the left greenside bunker it forms a crooked bottleneck approach in its original design. I think some of these holes hold up well with time because the farther you hit your tee shot the more precise your line needs to be.  I think the 11th at Yale is a good example that exemplifies this design in its original form. This is all my own speculation on the Valley hole.  It’s very much a feature or design that could use a re-examination.


Richard,  Can you tell us about some amazing shots you may have seen.  Hole-in-one’s, hole-outs or big putts during a high stakes match?


Bret

My scorecard is more than likely from my final years at the Links, 1979-1982.  That card matches the one in Sven's first post.  I appreciate your interpretation of a Valley hole of not being a one type fits all style.  Case in point the NGLA Valley hole which I was fortunate to play one time in 1981.  Upon initial examination to me those two holes have little visual in common. Your description however can match multiple similarities between those holes at the two courses.  Thanks for explaining.

Amazing shots and events that I witnessed at the Links? Thanks for asking.  Most memorable was an ace on the 16th by Hart Fesseden. I watched the ball land on the green and slowly roll into the hole.  Mr. Fesseden was unaware of his feat. When I quickly told him he was dubious of it.  As we approached the green, with no ball in sight, he  changed his doubt to joy.  The most memorable par was on the par 3 8th.  There was a foursome of priests that were friends of Joe Phillips.  One of the players duffed his shot in the left water hazard. His third shot off the tee was a line drive screamer that hit the flag stick and disappeared into the hole.   

My favorite member to caddie for was Jean Ribaud, former CEO of Schlumberger LTD. He was the best tipper as well.  The best tip was from Ned Lord who in winning a two team best ball tournament sent me a check for $200 in the early 80's.  Best near scratch golfer was James Robinson lll, former CEO of American Express. After the club closure he became a member of Deepdale.

My most embarrassing moment (at an early age) was unsuccessfully parking a golf cart at the 5th tee and then watching it roll down the valley.  Chasing it down the hill was in vain.  My best shot as a golfer was a near ace on the Redan 13th. My best score was an 18 hole 85 but not playing the 10th.  Caddies were only allowed to hit a drive off the tee on that hole but skip subsequent shots.  Hitting either the clubhouse or pro shop would forbid us for ever playing again on the course. Maybe permanently vanished off the premises!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 01:49:08 PM by Richard DeMenna »

Tim Martin

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #103 on: January 25, 2022, 05:38:07 PM »
Richard,


I think Tom was just pointing out that the colored overlay of the 1922 aerial had the angle wrong for the 16th hole.  I would definitely agree with this.  I think the orientation of the aerial is set up so we are looking at the 16th green head on, or as it would be played.  This is one of the holes where it is hard to see the tee boxes on the old aerial.  I think if you refer to the layout posted from Missing Links you will see the proper angle into this hole.  I can not speak to whether this tee box was moved or not over the years, without seeing an original scorecard of the course.


What year is your scorecard from Richard?


As for the Valley hole, I would agree there isn’t really a good definition for what a Valley hole entails.  I think it’s more than playing from a high spot to a valley fairway.  Raynor included Valley holes on a large percentage of his courses, so I think there are certain strategic decisions to be made when playing Valley holes.  I think one common theme among Valley holes is the body of the fairway seems to be similar on all of these holes.  The greens tend to have different variations but the tee shot is almost always to a fairway that has a crooked bottleneck feature in the approach.  if you look at the 1922 aerial you can make out a few fairway bunkers on 15 that would have pinched the fairway from the right.  The trees on the left pinched the fairway from the left, making the approach very narrow. If you pair that with the left greenside bunker it forms a crooked bottleneck approach in its original design. I think some of these holes hold up well with time because the farther you hit your tee shot the more precise your line needs to be.  I think the 11th at Yale is a good example that exemplifies this design in its original form. This is all my own speculation on the Valley hole.  It’s very much a feature or design that could use a re-examination.


Richard,  Can you tell us about some amazing shots you may have seen.  Hole-in-one’s, hole-outs or big putts during a high stakes match?


Bret

My scorecard is more than likely from my final years at the Links, 1979-1982.  That card matches the one in Sven's first post.  I appreciate your interpretation of a Valley hole of not being a one type fits all style.  Case in point the NGLA Valley hole which I was fortunate to play one time in 1981.  Upon initial examination to me those two holes have little visual in common. Your description however can match multiple similarities between those holes at the two courses.  Thanks for explaining.

Amazing shots and events that I witnessed at the Links? Thanks for asking.  Most memorable was an ace on the 16th by Hart Fesseden. I watched the ball land on the green and slowly roll into the hole.  Mr. Fesseden was unaware of his feat. When I quickly told him he was dubious of it.  As we approached the green, with no ball in sight, he  changed his doubt to joy.  The most memorable par was on the par 3 8th.  There was a foursome of priests that were friends of Joe Phillips.  One of the players duffed his shot in the left water hazard. His third shot off the tee was a line drive screamer that hit the flag stick and disappeared into the hole.   

My favorite member to caddie for was Jean Ribaud, former CEO of Schlumberger LTD. He was the best tipper as well.  The best tip was from Ned Lord who in winning a two team best ball tournament sent me a check for $200 in the early 80's.  Best near scratch golfer was James Robinson lll, former CEO of American Express. After the club closure he became a member of Deepdale.

My most embarrassing moment (at an early age) was unsuccessfully parking a golf cart at the 5th tee and then watching it roll down the valley.  Chasing it down the hill was in vain.  My best shot as a golfer was a near ace on the Redan 13th. My best score was an 18 hole 85 but not playing the 10th.  Caddies were only allowed to hit a drive off the tee on that hole but skip subsequent shots.  Hitting either the clubhouse or pro shop would forbid us for ever playing again on the course. Maybe permanently vanished off the premises!


Richard-That’s great stuff!!!! You mentioned James Robinson went to Deepdale. There was no shortage of great clubs that those guys had to choose from on the Gold Coast.

Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #104 on: January 25, 2022, 06:08:28 PM »
Tim,


Totally agree that the members had no worries finding another club to join. Several local members residing in Old Westbury, Brookville, and surrounding areas were already members of Piping Rock, The Creek, and other local high end clubs. Sadly for them it was one less course to play when they were planning their next outing.  I would have to think Deepdale would be an out of town member first choice to join after departing the Links being in close proximity of one another.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 07:24:10 PM by Richard DeMenna »

Tim Martin

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #105 on: January 25, 2022, 06:26:33 PM »
Richard-I will speak for Bret and say we would love to have you come over to Yale this coming season if they ease the Connecticut only resident requirement that’s resulted from Covid-19. You can get a look before it’s restored and regale us with more tales from the Links Club. I am truly enjoying the resurgence of this thread!


Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #106 on: January 25, 2022, 07:55:13 PM »
Richard-I will speak for Bret and say we would love to have you come over to Yale this coming season if they ease the Connecticut only resident requirement that’s resulted from Covid-19. You can get a look before it’s restored and regale us with more tales from the Links Club. I am truly enjoying the resurgence of this thread!


There are plenty of tales to tell I can grant you that. Some can be only told verbally! I do have some more postings in the coming days that hopefully will be informative to you all. Also, that is a tempting over to come up north again. That’s awful nice gesture.

Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #107 on: January 26, 2022, 06:38:42 PM »

Another interesting story I can share has to deal with the privacy of the club to the outside world.  This story is perfect to lead in to earlier post by Tom Doak in his saying Ben Crenshaw was unfamiliar with this facility. It certainly speaks volumes when someone of  Mr. Crenshaw's stature as a golf historian had not heard of the Links.

Just a few years earlier Mr. Crenshaw was involved in a playing a round in what the New York Times reported as the 18 best holes in the New York City metropolitan area. Here is the link:


https://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/04/sports/the-750-mile-dream-course.html

 
I have been blessed with a very good memory and specifically remember reading this article when it was released.  During one of my loops, on the weekend after the article was published, I remember talking to one of the members on why Mr. Crenshaw's foursome did not play a Links hole.  The member quietly and quickly said that we do not want the notoriety.  This was always the mindset at the club whether it be a member or the management.  I never did ask Joe Phillips why the Links was not included in this event but I am confident he would have said the same thing.


Tim Martin

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #108 on: January 26, 2022, 07:05:08 PM »

Another interesting story I can share has to deal with the privacy of the club to the outside world.  This story is perfect to lead in to earlier post by Tom Doak in his saying Ben Crenshaw was unfamiliar with this facility. It certainly speaks volumes when someone of  Mr. Crenshaw's stature as a golf historian had not heard of the Links.

Just a few years earlier Mr. Crenshaw was involved in a playing a round in what the New York Times reported as the 18 best holes in the New York City metropolitan area. Here is the link:


https://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/04/sports/the-750-mile-dream-course.html

 
I have been blessed with a very good memory and specifically remember reading this article when it was released.  During one of my loops, on the weekend after the article was published, I remember talking to one of the members on why Mr. Crenshaw's foursome did not play a Links hole.  The member quietly and quickly said that we do not want the notoriety.  This was always the mindset at the club whether it be a member or the management.  I never did ask Joe Phillips why the Links was not included in this event but I am confident he would have said the same thing.




I wonder if anyone has the technical skills to make the article or at least the map legible? I can’t decipher the text on either an IPhone or IPad.Thanks.




Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #109 on: January 26, 2022, 07:45:12 PM »
Tim,


None of the Times article is legible?

Tim Martin

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #110 on: January 26, 2022, 07:57:40 PM »
Tim,


None of the Times article is legible?


Rich-The article itself in the Times and the map are not legible for me but I did scroll down below and find a printed copy of the text without the map. Sorry for the confusion.


Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #111 on: January 26, 2022, 08:08:10 PM »
Tim,


None of the Times article is legible?


Rich-The article itself in the Times and the map are not legible for me but I did scroll down below and find a printed copy of the text without the map. Sorry for the confusion.


Good! I was going to bring that to your attention and now others will take notice as well. Hope everyone enjoys the article.

Tim Martin

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #112 on: January 26, 2022, 08:14:45 PM »
Tim,


None of the Times article is legible?


Rich-The article itself in the Times and the map are not legible for me but I did scroll down below and find a printed copy of the text without the map. Sorry for the confusion.


Good! I was going to bring that to your attention and now others will take notice as well. Hope everyone enjoys the article.


Rich-Great article and quite the quest some forty years ago. I can’t imagine any of the participants were longing for another helicopter ride any time soon after their accomplishment. :)

Bret Lawrence

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #113 on: January 28, 2022, 03:23:41 PM »
Richard,


Thanks for sharing your amazing shots and scores stories. The story about the caddies not being able to play 10 is interesting.  There was a recent story on Edward Harkness’ private estate course in Waterford, CT. In that story, Harkness let a young boy play the course whenever he wanted, but the boy wasn’t allowed to play the ninth hole, because of the proximity to the house.


I enjoyed the story on Ben Crenshaw playing the 750-mile, 18-hole course in the early 80’s.  Please keep the stories coming. 


Bret

Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #114 on: January 28, 2022, 05:33:44 PM »
Richard,


Thanks for sharing your amazing shots and scores stories. The story about the caddies not being able to play 10 is interesting.  There was a recent story on Edward Harkness’ private estate course in Waterford, CT. In that story, Harkness let a young boy play the course whenever he wanted, but the boy wasn’t allowed to play the ninth hole, because of the proximity to the house.


I enjoyed the story on Ben Crenshaw playing the 750-mile, 18-hole course in the early 80’s.  Please keep the stories coming. 


Bret
Bret,
Rest assure I do have a few more stories to post.  Your comments about Edward Harkness piqued my curiosity to learn who this man was.  Happy I did!  He is the individual that deeded land across from the Links on Shelter Rock Road to the Nassau County Boy Scouts in 1934.  This was mentioned in a previous post but I did not know at the time the magnitude of the philanthropy this man performed.   Another interesting note was his estate in Manhasset is now part of North Hills Country Club.  Occasionally I would sneak over there to caddie when there were tournaments and play at the Links was slow.

Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #115 on: January 29, 2022, 12:56:08 PM »
I am going to give my best recollection on topography details of holes 4-6 since there are no pictures available in this thread.  It certainly will not be as descriptive as Mr. Doak's input but I will do my best.

Hole 4 Hilltop (Modified 2/17/22 To Include 1984 Aerial View) Tee Box located in Lower Right Corner of picture

Hole-4-Hilltop

The tee box at times could host a gathering of foursomes.  It was in close proximity of the 3rd and 17th greens and the 18th tee. A drive off the 4th required a carry of around 190 yards to a fairway plateau. Short of the plateau on the left was a deep sand trap.  No more than a 7 iron could be used to safely exit the trap. Balls hit below the plateau, other than the left trap, could be safe in a generous wide fairway.  The fairway plateau was around 30 yards in length then sloped down into a mini valley.  From there it was a gradual upward trek to the green.

I never caddied for many long hitters but making the green in two was occasionally done.  It required a long drive and a precise second shot.  There were two fairway bunkers short of the green, a pretty pot bunker to the right of the green, and a long narrow sand trap extending from the back left of the green well down the left side of the fairway.  I can't remember the contour of the green but nothing drastic comes to mind.

Hole 5 Woods (Modified 2/17/22 To Include 1984 Aerial View) Tee Box Located in Right Center Border of the picture

Hole-Five-Woods

This certainly deserved the number 2 stroke rating in my opinion.  The line of play from the tee had the fairway serpentine sand trap staring you in the face.  It was usually not a problem in clearing this trap but two traps further down the right would come into play.  The angle of play however favored the drive into the center or left side of the fairway.  The fairway was level until about 180 yards from the green then followed a deep drop into another mini valley and then a steep climb to the green.

Long hitters would generally lay up before the fairway descent with a long iron. Go for broke drives required an additional 20 yards or so to avoid difficult downhill stances on the sloped fairway.  The second shot to the green, wherever located, required the correct distance to safely hold and stay.  Any shot short of the green would roll down a steep descending fairway for about 20 yards.  The flag stick would not be visible at that point.  Shots short of the green to the left or right of the fairway would catch deep sand traps.  To put the steepness in perspective, the grounds crew would hand mow this area with the aid of a rope to pull the mower up and down.

Once on the green there was ample space to putt or if long, to chip back.  During tournament play the flag stick was usually in the front right. Besides the danger of hitting the ball short at that pin placement there was a lone massive oak tree about 40 yards before the green on the right.  That also caught many a ball. 

Hole 6 Road  (Modified 2/17/22 To Include 1984 Aerial View) Tee Box Located in Left Corner of the picture



Hole-Six-Road


The tee box was in close proximity of the Northern State Parkway.  The homes occupying the grounds of the Links can be seen on the east side of the highway between New Hyde Park and Shelter Rock Roads. 

This picturesque hole playing as a par five was a stretch.  It would have made so much more to a challenging par four.  Securing a par was highly probable as long as you kept your drive in the fairway or at least to the right. The fairway noted no elevation change other than a mild climb shortly off the tee.  The road to the left in early aerials did not come into play during my tenure.  Tall privet type hedge ran between the road and the rough.  This hedge extended along the 7th and 8th holes as well. In the late 1960's, there were gated side entrances to the course along this road by the the 6th green and by the 8th culvert crossing.  They were used primarily for maintenance supply deliveries.  By the mid 1970's the entrances were overgrown.

Short drives off the tee had players face a second shot that could catch three center sand traps about 70 yards from the green.  Two deep bunkers to the right of the green were challenging as well.  The green was far from flat.  Players were encouraged to keep the approach shot short of the flag stick in order to putt uphill. Downhill putts could have devastating consequences. Three putting this green was commonplace.

As a young caddie, not knowing proper etiquette, I was walking around this green while a member was attempting to putt.  I was verbally reprimanded in a most nasty way of this infraction.  In later years, this member John M. Schiff, became one of my regular loops and a good tipper.  His wife "Fifi" was the widow of John R. Fell and a very pleasant person. Back in my day there was an annual tournament at the Meadowbrook Club in honor of Mr. Fell.  I wonder if this tournament is still ongoing? Phil Carlucci, would you know?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 09:18:19 PM by Richard DeMenna »

Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #116 on: February 03, 2022, 12:43:32 PM »
The demise of the Links Club course was one of those circumstances in a small group or club where most have some interest but less than a single individual who is in a position to get something done. The club had dropped to well under a hundred members but those remaining had pockets deep enough to keep the club open in spite of the land's high real estate value. There was significant opposition to the sale from members, certainly enough of them to keep the club financially solvent, and a large group of young, wealthy members eager to keep the club open. But the sale was rammed through, members receiving a payment that was surprisingly small. It was sad for golf, losing a CBM course which under slightly different circumstances would still be here today.
I have to say in my opinion Mr. Disher's comments is the most accurate assessment offered to date in GCA threads regarding the eventual closure of the club. In the final years of the club, my status as a leading caddie gave me the opportunity to listen to many casual conversations about the imminent closing. One in particular was a loop with the golf pro and Benno Schmidt Sr., a business partner of Jock Whitney. He was certainly against the sale and was quite vocal about it.  Although I just listened to this conversation there were occasions that I was able to talk to other members about this topic. It was certainly a sad subject.  As I stated previously, looping back in 1982, I witnessed healthy play and most members dismayed about the status of course closure.

I also can vouch that many young junior members certainly were interested in seeing the Club continue in the years ahead.  The last few years there was a popular tournament organized by some junior members called the Kummel Cup.  I remember asking one of the participants why the name and was told this spirit is popular across the pond for players about to play a round.



Bret Lawrence

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #117 on: February 05, 2022, 10:52:02 PM »
I am going to give my best recollection on topography details of holes 4-6 since there are no pictures available in this thread.  It certainly will not be as descriptive as Mr. Doak's input but I will do my best.

Hole 4 Hilltop - The tee box at times could host a gathering of foursomes.  It was in close proximity of the 3rd and 17th greens and the 18th tee. A drive off the 4th required a carry of around 190 yards to a fairway plateau. Short of the plateau on the left was a deep sand trap.  No more than a 7 iron could be used to safely exit the trap. Balls hit below the plateau, other than the left trap, could be safe in a generous wide fairway.  The fairway plateau was around 30 yards in length then sloped down into a mini valley.  From there it was a gradual upward trek to the green.

I never caddied for many long hitters but making the green in two was occasionally done.  It required a long drive and a precise second shot.  There were two fairway bunkers short of the green, a pretty pot bunker to the right of the green, and a long narrow sand trap extending from the back left of the green well down the left side of the fairway.  I can't remember the contour of the green but nothing drastic comes to mind.

Hole 5 Woods - This certainly deserved the number 2 stroke rating in my opinion.  The line of play from the tee had the fairway serpentine sand trap staring you in the face.  It was usually not a problem in clearing this trap but two traps further down the right would come into play.  The angle of play however favored the drive into the center or left side of the fairway.  The fairway was level until about 180 yards from the green then followed a deep drop into another mini valley and then a steep climb to the green.

Long hitters would generally lay up before the fairway descent with a long iron. Go for broke drives required an additional 20 yards or so to avoid difficult downhill stances on the sloped fairway.  The second shot to the green, wherever located, required the correct distance to safely hold and stay.  Any shot short of the green would roll down a steep descending fairway for about 20 yards.  The flag stick would not be visible at that point.  Shots short of the green to the left or right of the fairway would catch deep sand traps.  To put the steepness in perspective, the grounds crew would hand mow this area with the aid of a rope to pull the mower up and down.

Once on the green there was ample space to putt or if long, to chip back.  During tournament play the flag stick was usually in the front right. Besides the danger of hitting the ball short at that pin placement there was a lone massive oak tree about 40 yards before the green on the right.  That also caught many a ball. 

Hole 6 Road - The tee box was in close proximity of the Northern State Parkway.  The homes occupying the grounds of the Links can be seen on the east side of the highway between New Hyde Park and Shelter Rock Roads. 

This picturesque hole playing as a par five was a stretch.  It would have made so much more to a challenging par four.  Securing a par was highly probable as long as you kept your drive in the fairway or at least to the right. The fairway noted no elevation change other than a mild climb shortly off the tee.  The road to the left in early aerials did not come into play during my tenure.  Tall privet type hedge ran between the road and the rough.  This hedge extended along the 7th and 8th holes as well. In the late 1960's, there were gated side entrances to the course along this road by the the 6th green and by the 8th culvert crossing.  They were used primarily for maintenance supply deliveries.  By the mid 1970's the entrances were overgrown.

Short drives off the tee had players face a second shot that could catch three center sand traps about 70 yards from the green.  Two deep bunkers to the right of the green were challenging as well.  The green was far from flat.  Players were encouraged to keep the approach shot short of the flag stick in order to putt uphill. Downhill putts could have devastating consequences. Three putting this green was commonplace.

As a young caddie, not knowing proper etiquette, I was walking around this green while a member was attempting to putt.  I was verbally reprimanded in a most nasty way of this infraction.  In later years, this member John M. Schiff, became one of my regular loops and a good tipper.  His wife "Fifi" was the widow of John R. Fell and a very pleasant person. Back in my day there was an annual tournament at the Meadowbrook Club in honor of Mr. Fell.  I wonder if this tournament is still ongoing? Phil Carlucci, would you know?


Great descriptions Richard.  I’d love to hear your description for every hole and what you remember about the greens?  Maybe we could go around the Links Golf Club one last time with you as our caddie?

Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #118 on: February 06, 2022, 01:05:18 PM »
I am going to give my best recollection on topography details of holes 4-6 since there are no pictures available in this thread.  It certainly will not be as descriptive as Mr. Doak's input but I will do my best.

Hole 4 Hilltop - The tee box at times could host a gathering of foursomes.  It was in close proximity of the 3rd and 17th greens and the 18th tee. A drive off the 4th required a carry of around 190 yards to a fairway plateau. Short of the plateau on the left was a deep sand trap.  No more than a 7 iron could be used to safely exit the trap. Balls hit below the plateau, other than the left trap, could be safe in a generous wide fairway.  The fairway plateau was around 30 yards in length then sloped down into a mini valley.  From there it was a gradual upward trek to the green.

I never caddied for many long hitters but making the green in two was occasionally done.  It required a long drive and a precise second shot.  There were two fairway bunkers short of the green, a pretty pot bunker to the right of the green, and a long narrow sand trap extending from the back left of the green well down the left side of the fairway.  I can't remember the contour of the green but nothing drastic comes to mind.

Hole 5 Woods - This certainly deserved the number 2 stroke rating in my opinion.  The line of play from the tee had the fairway serpentine sand trap staring you in the face.  It was usually not a problem in clearing this trap but two traps further down the right would come into play.  The angle of play however favored the drive into the center or left side of the fairway.  The fairway was level until about 180 yards from the green then followed a deep drop into another mini valley and then a steep climb to the green.

Long hitters would generally lay up before the fairway descent with a long iron. Go for broke drives required an additional 20 yards or so to avoid difficult downhill stances on the sloped fairway.  The second shot to the green, wherever located, required the correct distance to safely hold and stay.  Any shot short of the green would roll down a steep descending fairway for about 20 yards.  The flag stick would not be visible at that point.  Shots short of the green to the left or right of the fairway would catch deep sand traps.  To put the steepness in perspective, the grounds crew would hand mow this area with the aid of a rope to pull the mower up and down.

Once on the green there was ample space to putt or if long, to chip back.  During tournament play the flag stick was usually in the front right. Besides the danger of hitting the ball short at that pin placement there was a lone massive oak tree about 40 yards before the green on the right.  That also caught many a ball. 

Hole 6 Road - The tee box was in close proximity of the Northern State Parkway.  The homes occupying the grounds of the Links can be seen on the east side of the highway between New Hyde Park and Shelter Rock Roads. 

This picturesque hole playing as a par five was a stretch.  It would have made so much more to a challenging par four.  Securing a par was highly probable as long as you kept your drive in the fairway or at least to the right. The fairway noted no elevation change other than a mild climb shortly off the tee.  The road to the left in early aerials did not come into play during my tenure.  Tall privet type hedge ran between the road and the rough.  This hedge extended along the 7th and 8th holes as well. In the late 1960's, there were gated side entrances to the course along this road by the the 6th green and by the 8th culvert crossing.  They were used primarily for maintenance supply deliveries.  By the mid 1970's the entrances were overgrown.

Short drives off the tee had players face a second shot that could catch three center sand traps about 70 yards from the green.  Two deep bunkers to the right of the green were challenging as well.  The green was far from flat.  Players were encouraged to keep the approach shot short of the flag stick in order to putt uphill. Downhill putts could have devastating consequences. Three putting this green was commonplace.

As a young caddie, not knowing proper etiquette, I was walking around this green while a member was attempting to putt.  I was verbally reprimanded in a most nasty way of this infraction.  In later years, this member John M. Schiff, became one of my regular loops and a good tipper.  His wife "Fifi" was the widow of John R. Fell and a very pleasant person. Back in my day there was an annual tournament at the Meadowbrook Club in honor of Mr. Fell.  I wonder if this tournament is still ongoing? Phil Carlucci, would you know?


Great descriptions Richard.  I’d love to hear your description for every hole and what you remember about the greens?  Maybe we could go around the Links Golf Club one last time with you as our caddie?
I will be happy to do so in the upcoming days.  This weekend has had me consumed with collecting tax information.  Oh what fun!

Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #119 on: February 17, 2022, 06:21:44 PM »
With the help from pictures of aerial views and Tom Doak's slides here is my recollection of the holes on the the front nine not discussed in detail in previous posts. Even though I have been blessed with a good memory please remember these facts go back at least forty years ago.

Hole 2 Alps -

Hole-2-Alps
 
Note this hole had three distinct tee boxes and clearly evident in this aerial. The tee for the Championship Course (red tees) was near the left trap of hole 1. The drive from this tee required going over a cluster of trees in addition to the water hazard. You either had to hook or angle the ball in order to avoid going into the right rough. The drive from the Regular Course (green tees) and Short Course (white tees) avoided the trees.  The water did not come into play unless the drive was duffed.  Despite this I retrieved many a golf ball from this hazard.

There was an ever so slight elevation change off the tee on to the fairway on the other side of the water.  As to its name, Alps, a sharp incline of the fairway began about 170 yards to the green. The second shot was blind only having a gnarly wooden pole indicating the back of the green. At the top of the "Alps" there were two sand traps that nearly covered the entire length of the fairway.  Those traps hardly ever came into play. From that point it was about 60 yards downhill to the green that was now visible. 

The green was well protected in the front with another set of two sand traps nearly surrounding the entire section there.  Only a small foot path to the green separated the two traps. Tom Doak's reply post 5 shows the well protected green that caught many a short shot.  The green contour is clearly shown in this picture as well.  Unlike the NGLA Alps, when you ring the bell after finishing the hole, waiting players at the 2nd had to delay their shot until seeing the finishing group advancing to the third tee.


Hole 8 - Short

Hole-Eight-Short


This picture, courtesy of Tom Doak, is edited. The green, with the exception of the entry and exit points, clearly shows a surrounded sand trap. I wanted to point out the pin placement for tournaments was deviously placed in the left corner of the green near the mark of the right shadow.  Also carefully note the exit point of the green near the underlining branches of the tree to the left.  This was a 6-8 stairway step-down that had a a one-sided metal handrail for carefully exiting the green. After exiting the green it was a quick trek to the Hole 9 tee. The pond is evident and further down the elevated green.

The Hole 8 tee box itself was elevated but not a drastic drop to the green.  The green undulation was not severe.  I only recall a mid section ridge line covering the majority of the green with the exception of the far upper left area.  On a personal note, this was always an easy hole for me to play. This is unlike my one and only time playing the Short at NGLA.  My tee shot landed squarely on the green but it took me four putts to finish the hole.


Hole 9 - Corner

 Hole-Nine-Corner

Using this 1954 aerial, unlike later ones, clearly shows the main tee box.  This hole, like Number 2 Alps, had three distinct tee boxes.  The tees for the red course was near parallel to the Hole 8 exit point.  It was nestled in a small clump of trees and the drive had a narrow shoot. This tee box was abandoned in the late seventies. Forward 25 yards was the clearly visible green tees followed another 50 yards to the white tees.

The length of the pond from the green tees required around a 170 yard carry. The ideal route however was to carry the right fairway trap allowing the average hitter 120-140 yards to the green.  The green, like Hole 5, required the correct distance to safely hold and stick.  Any shot short of the green would roll down the steep descending fairway.  The green noted a significant mid-section ridge line covering the majority of the green. The undulation back (toward the tees) required a delicate putting stroke to prevent the ball from rolling down into the fairway. This hole was more difficult than the yardage would indicate.


Back Nine Report Hopefully Tomorrow
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 08:27:15 PM by Richard DeMenna »

archie_struthers

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #120 on: February 17, 2022, 06:44:34 PM »
 8) 8) 8) 8)




Wow!   I've been reading this for the last 15 minutes and just really enjoying it
Good good stuff ;D
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 10:02:48 AM by archie_struthers »

Jeff Schley

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #121 on: February 17, 2022, 11:42:06 PM »
This thread is a prime example of why we enjoy this site. Depth of information on a variety of courses with a collective effort by many, thanks Richard for sharing and others. Learned quite a bit.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #122 on: February 20, 2022, 11:31:31 AM »
Here is my recollection of the holes on the back nine not discussed in detail in previous posts. This is with the assistance of pictures of aerial views provided by Bret and Josh along with a few of Tom Doak's slides. These pictures certainly helped me rekindle my memory of the course layout.  I might also add that reply posts 54 and 55 were revised to include additional pictures for Holes 10 and 11.


Hole 12 - Plateau
Hole-12


This picture is from the 1954 aerial.  I wanted to use this photo to bring out one of two key features of the hole, a saddle back hill (similar to Hole 2 Alps) that the player faced on the drive. This was a blind shot although caddies always made sure they showed an overview of the hole at Hole 11 green to the players.  The tee box is located near the right center border of the picture near a small cluster of trees. The drive was an up and down shot over this saddleback hill. The hill can be seen north of the large lengthy sand trap (about one-third in from the right picture border). This trap was abandoned and not visible in later aerials.

Hole-12-Near-Tee

 
This above picture shows an overview of the hole  from Hole 11 fairway.  The tee is in the right corner by a tree cluster. The green is up another hill in front of a large cluster of trees.

Hole-12-Fairway-Top-resized


 
This above picture, courtesy of Tom Doak (edited by me), shows the top of the saddleback hill from the left rough. Looking back in the left corner of the picture, the tee box is near what appears to be a growth of forsythia and then the cluster of trees. Hole 11 is also shown.

The objective of the drive off the red and green tees was to keep the ball on the right side of the fairway. This allowed the ball to catch the downside of the hill which resulted in a considerable lengthy fairway roll into a flat landing area.  Balls landing in the center and left portion of the fairway had the tendency to veer left into an adjoining fairway that came into play from the white tee short course.  (The short course tee box was situated behind Hole 11 green).  Well driven shots, depending on the location of the roll off the hill, required a blind second shot ranging from 150-170 yards.

Despite the second shot being considered blind, players were able to determine the pin placement at the top of the saddleback hill.  This was important since the green was two level.  This two tier green was the second key feature of the hole.  Having the ball land on the correct tier was critical to achieve a two putt. There was a significant incline from the front level to back level. During tournament play the pin placement was usually on the top level. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2022, 04:00:04 PM by Richard DeMenna »

Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #123 on: February 20, 2022, 11:41:44 AM »
Hole 13 - Redan

There is very little information I can add to the description of this hole.  The earlier input by Tom Doak and Mark Bourgeois is superior in itself. The only thing I can add is that the tournament pin placement was devilishly placed in the right corner of the green.   This made a difficult hole even harder.

Hole 14 - Long
Hole-Fourteen

The 1954 aerial above shows more of the course design that was in play during my tenure as a caddie. This aerial also shows Hole 15 in its entirety along with the majority of Hole 5 and part of Hole 6 fairway. The Motor Parkway route ran east-west on the bottom border. Red and green tees were in a small nook behind Hole 15 green separated by a dirt pathway used by service vehicles. White tees were around 70 yards further up.  The direct route to these tees, after finishing Hole 13, was to cross the Hole 15 fairway to the tee box.

Hole-14-Tee

 This picture above, courtesy of Tom Doak, was edited to show the red and green tee box for Hole 14.  It is off to the right of Hole 15 green by a bunch of scruffy looking bushes.  There was a pond that rarely came into play between this tee box and the white short course tees. The hole noted a moderate upward elevation change for the first two shots of play.

The drive off the tee was challenged by a series of bunkers on both sides of the fairway.  Depending on the length of the drive, the second shot was either played straight or as a dogleg right.  Another series of bunkers in the right rough about could catch balls if players tried to cut their distance for the third shot.  Another obstacle to the right was a lengthy line of mature trees. 

Two good shots on this hole would generally greet the player with less than 150 yards to the green.  I never witnessed a player reaching the green in two although Joe, the pro, told me he had achieved this feat.  The green itself was unprotected from any obstacles.  Balls hitting the green held remarkably well due in part to a slightly sunken putting surface.  The green was relatively flat with no undulations that I can recall.

Richard DeMenna

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Re: The Links Club - Now with Photos
« Reply #124 on: February 20, 2022, 11:48:17 AM »
Hole 15 - Valley

Pictures provided in reply post 18 by Tom Doak shows the two shots required for this hole.  Additionally, the main characteristics of a McDonald Valley hole in the form of a crooked bottleneck approach is spot on as noted in reply post 101 by Bret Lawrence.

I think it is important to note the deepness of the front bunker in the picture below.  This is an edited copy of a Tom Doak picture.  Take note of the exit off the green in left center border of the picture.  This was a 8-10 stairway step-down that had a a one-sided metal handrail for carefully exiting the green. Behind the green and on each side was a deep drop off. The drop off was similar to the one on Hole 3 green.  There was little turf beyond the drop off and mostly hard surface.  It was highly unlikely to make an up and down from there.

Hole-15-Green-Closeup-Resized


 




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