[Buck Wolter]

Jason- The real question about Waveland's Par 5's is what do you think of # 3? has to be the narrowest golf hole I have ever played.

Keith Foster does a great job in creating interest on Par 5's with length, cross bunkers, centerline bunkers and water hazards at Gateway National in St Louis. Each of the four has one or two of these that make you really think from 250 in.

[Jason Topp]

Jason- The real question about Waveland's Par 5's is what do you think of # 3? has to be the narrowest golf hole I have ever played.

Keith Foster does a great job in creating interest on Par 5's with length, cross bunkers, centerline bunkers and water hazards at Gateway National in St Louis. Each of the four has one or two of these that make you really think from 250 in.

The trees on that hole (the 6th at the time) provided my golf ball supply as a kid so I favored the narrowness!  Not a good golf hole but a memorable one.

[Tom_Doak]

My personal favorite in this category is the 8th hole at Crystal Downs.  Your third shot has a much greater chance of success if you are playing from one of two smallish, level areas along the right side of the hole -- otherwise, you've got a tough stance and a lot of elevation change to hit to a tiny target.

But, to get into the right position, you've got to hit your second shot from an iffy stance, and flirt with the native rough along the right side.

It doesn't look like much on paper, because there are no bunkers to draw in, but it's as good of a par-5 as they come.

[Michael Felton]

The 4th at Bethpage Black is a great example of this I think. It even manages to incorporate the player trying to hit the green in two. If you're in range, you're hitting from a slight downslope (unless you really hit a good drive), to an uphill green with two great big bunkers in front and a green that slopes away from you. Very difficult to stop it on the green there when it's firm. So if you go for it and fail, then you can end up in the front bunkers with a difficult bunker shot or over the back quite a long way below the green surface. If you lay up, then the further up the hole you go, the more the green opens up. Play the shortest carry over the huge bunker and you have a semi-blind approach shot the same as the 2nd shot I already discussed.

I would add also #16 on Walton Heath New. Played from the purple tees, if there's even a hint of wind into, you're looking at a tough decision for your second shot. There is a band of heather that runs across the fairway starting about 200 yards from the green and ending about 170 yards from the green. Hit a decent drive and you *should* be able to get over it, but it's risky. If you miss with your second, you'll probably not be using a putter for your fourth shot. Hit a good one and you're looking to wedge it close for a birdie chance.

[Carl Rogers]

This weekend, I will take some pics of the 14th at Riverfront, a fishook left .... a number of second shot options that really challenge a good fairway metal player, usually off a slightly hanging lie.

[Tim Leahy]

17 at Riviera gives options with great trap placement and length. Also 18 at Torrey South makes for some great finishes with drive placement dictating the second shot.

[Nigel Islam]

Interesting post, because a criticism of Tillie's work on this site is often that he didn't make good par 5s. BB is the only course of his I have played. I think the 4th and 7th are very good holes. The 4th being excptional.

[jim_lewis]

Sometimes it is easy to overlook the obvious. I don't know a better par 5 that #13 at ANGC. The best players in the world are often faced with a tough decision on the second shot.

Another legit par  5 on tour is #15 at Harbour Town.

[BHoover]

17 at Baltusrol Lower has a pretty interesting second shot, from what I remember from the '93 US Open. Isn't the hole about 630+ from the tournament tee? I remember the second shot being a ball buster just to get over the cross bunkers inorder to have a decent look at the green for the player's third shot. I also remember John Daly hitting a huge drive and a 1-iron to reach the green in two.

Someone mentioned 16 at Firestone as being a par 5 that can't b reached in two. Unfortunately, that's not really the case any longer. The South course typically plays extremely F&F during the tournament, so drives of 400+ are not unheard of at Firestone, particularly on 16 due to the speed slot in the fairway. But, if the golfer does go for the green in two, that green is nearly impossible to hold with a long iron or fairway wood. The pond fronting all but the far left of the green doesn't make the prospect of trying to reach it that inviting.

[Mike Hendren]

Good grief people!   Augusta National Golf Club owns this thread.  2, 8, 13 and 15 might ALL be top ten.  It is the lay-up on each hole that is chock full of strategy and heavily dependent upon hole location. Not to mention the more obvious risk/reward nature when trying to get home in two.

Bogey

[BCowan]

Brian

   What do you think about 8 at Scioto?  I really loved that 5 par, looked forward to the tee shot on holes prior.   I loved the slope in the lay up area too.

[BHoover]

Brian

   What do you think about 8 at Scioto?  I really loved that 5 par, looked forward to the tee shot on holes prior.   I loved the slope in the lay up area too.

I like the tee shot on 8, and the second shot is a good one. But I think it will be better when the moat is filled in starting this season. What I do like is that, even with the moat, the green appears much more shallow than it really is. From the fairway, it looks too shallow to hold a hybrid or long iron. But there's much more room than you think. I like the fact that slope and the angle plays tricks with the player.

[BHoover]

Good grief people!   Augusta National Golf Club owns this thread.  2, 8, 13 and 15 might ALL be top ten.  It is the lay-up on each hole that is chock full of strategy and heavily dependent upon hole location. Not to mention the more obvious risk/reward nature when trying to get home in two.

Bogey

We have a winner. The second shots on each of these holes are all-world, obviously. But I'm not sure that the third shots are particularly special, except for the fact that the shot may be from a hanging lie (#15) or to an exceptional difficult and/or undulating green (# 2 and #8 seem very tough); not sure what's so special about a third shot on #13, but it's arguably the BEST risk-reward par 5 in the game. (I shoul add that I've never seen ANGC in person, so I'm perfectly willing to concede that the third shots could be great too, I just don't know...and third shots are beyond the scope of this thread.)

[jim_lewis]

Michael:

You are so right about the par 5's at Augusta. Your point about the hole location dictating second shot strategy is particularly true on 2 and 8.  If the pin is left on 2 or way back left on 8, there is no point in going for the green in two, and tournament players rarely will. A right pin on 2 is a potential eagle, while most birdies on a left pin are made from the front bunker or a pitch from the right side. Long shots into a left pin, if they clear the bunker will probably wind up over the green leaving a tough up and in.

Until recent years, few players went for the green on #8. Now they will often give it a go if the pin is right (front). If it is back, they will normally play the second way right in order to avoid the large front left mound on their third shot.

#13 and #15 also present a tough go-no go decision but hole location is not as big a factor in the decision as on 2 and 8. Hole location is a big factor on both when deciding where to lay up.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I would disagree on # 2 and # 8 at ANGC.

Why wouldn't you go for either green in two ?

There's no substantive penalty for failing to execute that shot, whereas, on # 13 and # 15 the penalty is severe.

[Matthew Essig]

And the ANGC bias appears again....

There is nothing special about 15. Any person could go out and make a straight par 5 with a green behind a lake and make it "strategic."

I do think that the other three par 5s OWN this thread.

[Bill_McBride]

And the ANGC bias appears again....

There is nothing special about 15. Any person could go out and make a straight par 5 with a green behind a lake and make it "strategic."

I do think that the other three par 5s OWN this thread.

For the best players I have to disagree.  If you can't safely carry the pond in two, which most can after a good tee shot, the third shot after a layup is from a steep downhill lie to a steeply uphill green where it's quite possible to suck that third shot back into the hazard.  I can't think of many par 5s where the tee shot is more critical. 

[John Kirk]

I nominate the 17th hole at Stone Eagle, 560/510 yards and slightly uphill.  The green has a high left shelf, which constitutes about 2/3 of the green, and a lower right trough for the other 1/3 of the green.  There is a deep bunker guarding the left side, and a couple of bunkers short and right of the green, which yield long difficult bunker shots.

The second shot is uphill, and exciting because the left side of the fairway is highly preferable for attacking left side hole locations.  Similarly, the right side of the fairway is best for right side hole locations.  The fairway is about 50-60 yards wide here, so there's some risk, skill and/or luck hitting the proper side of the fairway.  There's also value in laying back for a full swing on the third shot; 30-50 yard pitches close to the green are quite difficult.  One of Stone Eagle's best golf holes.


Other than that, for drama it's hard to beat the second shot at the sixth hole at Pebble Beach.

[Sam Morrow]

I agree with Joe about Glen Mills, one of the cooler looking par 5's I've ever played. There is another 5 on the back (I think about 15 or so) that's got a very cool second shot also.

Pensacola CC has a very good par 5 on the back with a split fairway that brings in some interesting third shots.

[Mike Hendren]

Good grief people!   Augusta National Golf Club owns this thread.  2, 8, 13 and 15 might ALL be top ten.  It is the lay-up on each hole that is chock full of strategy and heavily dependent upon hole location. Not to mention the more obvious risk/reward nature when trying to get home in two.

Bogey

We have a winner. The second shots on each of these holes are all-world, obviously. But I'm not sure that the third shots are particularly special, except for the fact that the shot may be from a hanging lie (#15) or to an exceptional difficult and/or undulating green (# 2 and #8 seem very tough); not sure what's so special about a third shot on #13, but it's arguably the BEST risk-reward par 5 in the game. (I shoul add that I've never seen ANGC in person, so I'm perfectly willing to concede that the third shots could be great too, I just don't know...and third shots are beyond the scope of this thread.)

I sat in the bleachers right of 13 last year during Friday's round.  The hole location was toward the front of the shallow ledge at the back of the green.  Ironically, the hole was more accesible from second shots than thirds.  Players were laying up well right of the green,  trying to bring the ball in low to climb the small ridge.  Everyone came up short, except poor Greg Norman who went long.  Had the hole been front right, players would have played their second much closer to Rae's Creek to leave an easier pitch.

I hope you get the opportunity to attend.  It remains highly underrated.

Cheers,

Bogey

[Mike Hendren]

I would disagree on # 2 and # 8 at ANGC.

Why wouldn't you go for either green in two ?    
  I don't know.  Perhaps you should address this question to the tour players since they obviously have a reason.

There's no substantive penalty for failing to execute that shot, whereas, on # 13 and # 15 the penalty is severe.

It's a half par hole for the professionals.  You above all others should know that the wings aren't' accessible if played over the bunkers.  Short and you dump it in the bunker.  Long and it's dicey downhill.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mathew,

If you ever played ANGC you wouldn't make that comment.

There's plenty that's special about # 15, including the topography and visuals presented to the golfer.

But, what's so special about # 2 and # 8 ?


And the ANGC bias appears again....

There is nothing special about 15. Any person could go out and make a straight par 5 with a green behind a lake and make it "strategic."

I do think that the other three par 5s OWN this thread.

[jim_lewis]

Patrick:

Regarding #2 and #8 at ANGC, I am speaking from the point of view of the tournament players. I haven't reached (or even tried to reach) a par 5 in two shots in years.

Over the past 45 years I have witnessed at least 700 shots into #2 and slightly less to #8. The approach to those  greens has changed over the years as the players have gotten longer and the tees have been moved back. For a long time most players hit drivers off the second tee, and the longer players could go for the green with a middle iron. In those days, most would go for the green regardless of the pin placement. The tee has now been backed up so far that if the pin is left, especially if the wind is against, most players hit a fairway wood off the tee to avoid the fairway bunker on the right, thereby leaving a longer shot to the green. If the pin is left, there is little percentage in trying to hit the green. If they clear the left bunker, they probably wind up over the green, which is not good. If they play to the middle of the green, the slope takes the ball right leaving a very long and difficult 2-putt and a likely 3-putt. I did see Nick Faldo make a 90ft putt from the right one of the years that he won, but I have seen many more 3-putts from there.So, most players will play their second shot short right, perhaps even right of the right front bunker, leaving a simple pitch shot to the left pin. The other option is to play into the left front bunker. I'm guessing that the at least half the birdies I have seen on #2 were from the bunkers. Not many from over the green.
Now, if the pin is right, almost everyone will take a crack at it in two. The perfect shot is aimed to land between the bunkers, bounce onto the green and roll right to the pin. That's exactly what Louis Oosthuizen did. If the shot misses right into the bunker, no problem. There is still a better than even chance of a sandy birdie. Just don't miss long.

Until recent years, very few players attempted to for the 8th green in two. The risk of getting a little left and winding up behind the large mound on the left, leaving a blind and difficult pitch, outweighed the reward. They have moved the tee back and extended the fairway bunker forward, but these days the players are so long, that many will take a crack at the green, if the pin is on the front half. Still, if the pin is back left/rear, most will elect to play well right of the green, toward the 9th fairway, leaving a much easier pitch to the back pin. There are, of course, exceptions, but those rarely are made by the veterans.

By the way, I also agree with Bogey, that you are more likely to see a layup to the right when the pins are on the left corner of #13 and #15. The risk of going for those pins in two is too great, so the only other option is to go for the fat of the green. That option also has more risk that reward.

As I am sure you know, anyone who thinks a pitch shot from a downhill lie over the water on #15 is simple, should ask Greg Norman.

Jim
Jim

[Patrick_Mucci]

I would disagree on # 2 and # 8 at ANGC.

Why wouldn't you go for either green in two ?    

  I don't know.  Perhaps you should address this question to the tour players since they obviously have a reason.

Mike, I don't know if you're aware of this, but golfers, other than PGA Tour Pros, play ANGC every day

There's no substantive penalty for failing to execute that shot, whereas, on # 13 and # 15 the penalty is severe.

  It's a half par hole for the professionals.  

Why limit he context in which the hole is discussed, to 120 guys who play the course for one week in the Spring ?
What about the thousands of non-PGA Tour Pros who play the course
You've got to learn to expand your horizons

You above all others should know that the wings aren't' accessible if played over the bunkers.  
Short and you dump it in the bunker.  Long and it's dicey downhill.  

There's nothing wrong with hitting your 2nd shot into the greenside bunker.
And, one doesn't have to make birdie every time you play the hole.
Going for the green in two and scoring a par isn't a bad outcome.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

My personal favorite in this category is the 8th hole at Crystal Downs.  Your third shot has a much greater chance of success if you are playing from one of two smallish, level areas along the right side of the hole -- otherwise, you've got a tough stance and a lot of elevation change to hit to a tiny target.

But, to get into the right position, you've got to hit your second shot from an iffy stance, and flirt with the native rough along the right side.

It doesn't look like much on paper, because there are no bunkers to draw in, but it's as good of a par-5 as they come.

I forgot about this one.
I agree, it is not until you have the hole at least once that you realise the complexity of the green and where you need to hit it.
The tremandous undulations in the fairway relate very much to my other par five holes I find interesting, placement into the flat areas on your second shot, gives the best chance of shot contol as a premium.

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