[BCowan]

So my next question is for Golf Construction/Arch guys

    So going with Doral prior to being built not having any ponds/lakes, could Wilson have built a wide creek flowing through the course and emptying to a pond/lake on the out skirts of the routing?  Grading it to flow into the lake off the routing.  Are the water tables to low to do this?  I understand that he needed dirt to make tees and greens.  Would a large creek and pond off routing be enough to use as irrigation and allow for a flooding drainage?  Last but not least, with water being a natural prevailing feature in Florida, do you think that Doral using a lot of water hazards impacted future Florida designs because it was a tour stop and had TV viewership?

[jeffwarne]

Bcowan,
Well the Blue Monster would've sure been a funny name

Pat
Re:those farms/grazing areas-there were plenty left on the outskirts when I began coming to Doral.
Dry in the winter-under water in the summer/early fall
From the air flying into Miami, much of the everglades don't look like ponds or lakes either.
The Everglades  not called the River of Grass for no reason

[Patrick_Mucci]

So my next question is for Golf Construction/Arch guys

So going with Doral prior to being built not having any ponds/lakes, could Wilson have built a wide creek flowing through the course and emptying to a pond/lake on the out skirts of the routing?  

Where would the water in the creek come from ?

Are you now going to second guess Wilson's work at Doral ?

Grading it to flow into the lake off the routing.  

With the property being a constant 2' ASL, how would you accomplish this, and at what cost ?

Are the water tables to low to do this?  I understand that he needed dirt to make tees and greens.  

The dirt usually came from the excavated ponds

Would a large creek and pond off routing be enough to use as irrigation and allow for a flooding drainage?  

NO

Last but not least, with water being a natural prevailing feature in Florida, do you think that Doral using a lot of water hazards impacted future Florida designs because it was a tour stop and had TV viewership?

NO

Many courses in Florida obtained the dirt for fairways, tees and greens by excavating ponds, ergo their creation.
In addition, ponds served as irrigation reservoirs, and were necessary.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

Re:those farms/grazing areas-there were plenty left on the outskirts when I began coming to Doral.

Dry in the winter-under water in the summer/early fall

Jeff,

Doral and the area surrounding Doral was NEVER underwater in the summer.

The area to the west, as you approached the Everglades was prone to rising water, but not Doral and the nearby area.

That was farm and nursery land

From the air flying into Miami, much of the everglades don't look like ponds or lakes either.

The Everglades shouldn't be confused with dry farm land and nurseries.
The approach and climb corridors extend into the Everglades, and that's what you see when flying in and out of Miami.

The Everglades not called the River of Grass for no reason

Understood, but, the Everglades has nothing to do with Doral.
There were roads all around the property that became Doral, even roads to the west.

[BCowan]

So my next question is for Golf Construction/Arch guys

So going with Doral prior to being built not having any ponds/lakes, could Wilson have built a wide creek flowing through the course and emptying to a pond/lake on the out skirts of the routing?  

Where would the water in the creek come from ?  The same place it comes from the existing water features.

Are you now going to second guess Wilson's work at Doral ?Asking Const/Arch guys if Wilson had other options!
  
Grading it to flow into the lake off the routing.  

With the property being a constant 2' ASL, how would you accomplish this, and at what cost ?It costs money to build ponds/lakes, asking if building a graded creek is economically feasible.

Are the water tables to low to do this?  I understand that he needed dirt to make tees and greens.  

The dirt usually came from the excavated pondsIt can come from a creek and a pond/lake off the routing, can it not?

Would a large creek and pond off routing be enough to use as irrigation and allow for a flooding drainage?  

NOI'll wait to see if any who build courses see if it is possible.

Last but not least, with water being a natural prevailing feature in Florida, do you think that Doral using a lot of water hazards impacted future Florida designs because it was a tour stop and had TV viewership?

NOYour opinion, not saying it is wrong

Many courses in Florida obtained the dirt for fairways, tees and greens by excavating ponds, ergo their creation.
In addition, ponds served as irrigation reservoirs, and were necessary.Why can't man made wide creeks provide the same for reservoirs. (I know courses that pump out of natural creeks for irrigation).  I asked if the ponds could be built off the routing in which dirt could be used to build tees and greens and a man made creek could empty into the pond off the routing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

So my next question is for Golf Construction/Arch guys

So going with Doral prior to being built not having any ponds/lakes, could Wilson have built a wide creek flowing through the course and emptying to a pond/lake on the out skirts of the routing?  

Where would the water in the creek come from ?  The same place it comes from the existing water features.

Surely, you understand the difference between a "retention" pond and a flowing waterway.

Are you now going to second guess Wilson's work at Doral ?Asking Const/Arch guys if Wilson had other options!
Of course he had options, and he chose the options that best suited his purpose, his mission.
  
Grading it to flow into the lake off the routing.  

With the property being a constant 2' ASL, how would you accomplish this, and at what cost ?It costs money to build ponds/lakes, asking if building a graded creek is economically feasible.

If you understand the process by which lakes were excavated, to depth, and the soil used to create fairways, tees and greens, you'd be able to understand that the lakes/ponds were built at the same elevation.

A large, wide creek, such as the one you proposed, would require constant elevation from the point of inception to the terminus, a far more costly and difficult process,, as they'd have to buy fill.

Are the water tables to low to do this?  I understand that he needed dirt to make tees and greens.  

The dirt usually came from the excavated pondsIt can come from a creek and a pond/lake off the routing, can it not?
NO, because there's NOT enough of it.
Didn't you look at the 1961 aerial ?

At 2' ASL, wouldn't you want to elevate the fairways, tees and greens.

Would a large creek and pond off routing be enough to use as irrigation and allow for a flooding drainage?  

NOI'll wait to see if any who build courses see if it is possible.

You can wait as long as you want.
I have experience with building/renovating courses in South Florida and understand the problems with water/soil and adequate retention ponds.
Creeks are worthless in terms of the retention of adequate volumes.

Last but not least, with water being a natural prevailing feature in Florida, do you think that Doral using a lot of water hazards impacted future Florida designs because it was a tour stop and had TV viewership?

NOYour opinion, not saying it is wrong

It's an opinion based upon golf course construction in South Eastern Florida over the last 60 years.

Many courses in Florida obtained the dirt for fairways, tees and greens by excavating ponds, ergo their creation.
In addition, ponds served as irrigation reservoirs, and were necessary.

Why can't man made wide creeks provide the same for reservoirs.

Because they can't provide the volume of water that is provided by large retention ponds that are 20, 30 and 40 feet deep.
And, where are you going to get the water for a constantly running creek ?
Remember, you stated that it only rains 3.4 inches in the winter in South Florida.

(I know courses that pump out of natural creeks for irrigation).  

Would you show us where those  natural creeks are located close to Doral.

I asked if the ponds could be built off the routing in which dirt could be used to build tees and greens and a man made creek could empty into the pond off the routing.

That's always possible, but, it's more expensive to move dirt from greater distances, such as the perimeter to the center.
And, permiting to build ponds close to the border of the property may have been an issue.
But, it's interesting to see you second guessing Wilson, an architect who produced great work in Florida.

[Morgan Clawson]

I think it's time to re-read the annual message from Ran.
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

With five (5) golf courses and each one using an average of 100,000,000 gallons of water per year, that's half a billion gallons a year that Doral would require.

Hard to store that much water in a stream.

Large, deep retention ponds, such as the ones that Wilson created are the ay to go.

In addition, on a flat property, the introduction of ponds became an integral component of individual hole design.

Is not # 18 on the Blue course not a perfect example ?

[Ian Andrew]

So going with Doral prior to being built not having any ponds/lakes, could Wilson have built a wide creek flowing through the course and emptying to a pond/lake on the out skirts of the routing?  Grading it to flow into the lake off the routing.  Are the water tables to low to do this?  I understand that he needed dirt to make tees and greens.  Would a large creek and pond off routing be enough to use as irrigation and allow for a flooding drainage?

BCowan,

I would assume the original site was intermittently wet.

Therefore the fill from the ponds was required to bring the tees, greens and fairways up high enough to always be dry.
A creek generates hardly and fill compared to the mass volume those lakes generated.
Therefore the ponds were essential to building a course.

Being directly in play is a separate question to debate....

Do you think that Doral using a lot of water hazards impacted future Florida designs because it was a tour stop and had TV viewership?

No, water table dictated the need for fill for golf and housing
Therefore lakes are required to generate enough volume for development.

Once again, being directly in play is a separate question to debate....

[BCowan]

Thank You Ian.

   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian,

The original site was not intermittently wet, unless, it rained 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Nice work from Gil, but it just goes to show you cannot turn Chicken sh*& into Chicken salad by throwing money at it.
Still a penal golf course with penalty created by adding water and huge bunkers, simply not my style of architecture at all.
I wouldnt bother crossing the road to play it.
That is in no way a slam on the course or the work that has been done on it, I just dont see what i so clever about creating a course like this.
Water to me is he cheapest, simplest and least attractive way  there is in creating a hard golf course.
I understand that you can only do so much with a piece of land, totally accept that.
Perhaps that is why I play so little golf in Florida.

[Mark Saltzman]

Michael, did you read my brief hole descriptions. While the golf course is difficult, it is absolutely NOT penal architecture.

[John Mayhugh]

8. My worry is that GCA turns more and more in a "its all great" site. In the last few weeks alone I received several PM's from people stating their opinion on something I posted, explaining they could not put their (critical) opinions publicly on GCA. That way GCA becomes a PR site where all is well, all courses are "great", and as Max Behr already said in his well known 30's article nobody will learn anything anymore.

This is a good point.  

Not sure why positive opinions formed from simply looking at pictures & reading text are any more valid than negative ones based on the same information.  Obviously we should keep the degree of experience in mind when weighting the opinions others post, but if someone doesn't like something and explains why, no problem that I see.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Mark
Indded and I thought the descriptions were great.
For what the land gives, I think the architect{s} have done a good job over the years but to me the overuse of lakes makes it penal..after all it is an automatic two shot swing.
That is what I mean by penal, penal to the scorecard.
I would much rather see the inventive use of more subltle creeks/streams instead of wide lakes, same penalty but more room fro error.
That is just what my eye sees, huge bunkers on one side of a fairway and lakes on the other is to me not very inventive or the kind of architecture I  find apealing or clever.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not sure why positive opinions formed from simply looking at pictures & reading text are any more valid than negative ones based on the same information.  

I don't think anyone advanced that concept.

Obviously we should keep the degree of experience in mind when weighting the opinions others post, but if someone doesn't like something and explains why, no problem that I see.

Like "fact based" medicine, "fact based" architectural evaluations should be based on more than 21 random photos, some of which are redundant.

Actually walking or playing the course should be the minimal requirement.

Those who played the Pre-Hanse renovation can assess the merits of the renovation and those who only played the post-Hanse work should evaluate the course on it's merits or demerits, but offering an opinion on a public forum, based solely on viewing limited photos isn't fair to Gil, Trump and all involved with the project.

Let the proof be in the tasting, and not in personality conflicts
[/quote]

[Kevin_D]

I had the pleasure of playing Trump Doral's new Blue Monster this morning. A few observations.

- the course is FANTASTIC. Fairly generous, undulating fairways, but with oceans of sand that all comes right into play. The greens are massive. Conditioning near perfect. Lots of water, but it didn't seem to come into play as much as you see it - at least not stupidly. There is almost always room to steer clear of it if you desire, or you can take a more daring line.
- let me mention the bunkers again: they are terrific, both visually striking and making every hole interesting. I also think they look better in person than in the pictures
- the caddies were great (and one was quite colorful)
- the place is a massive construction zone at the moment. As a result not everything is running like clockwork. You need to park at the spa and walk or be carted over to the course. There are no bathrooms near the pro shop/1st tee as the new clubhouse is being built. I assume this will all be worked out in due haste
- I saw the Donald on 15 scouting out locations for a new (longer) tee
- the course was a ton of fun to play for a mid handicapper like myself, but I also got the sense that it is just going to make an awesome stage for the tour event. I know the Cadillac is already a WGC, but I bet the tournament goes up in prestige with the renovation
- it is expensive. I was prepared for this. That said, I thought it was bush league to charge me $15 for valet parking after the cost of the round.
- this will, without a doubt, be my go to spot when in Miami
- the fountain actually isn't as bad as it looks in the pictures!
- I am writing this from South Beach while drinking a margarita. Say what you want about how the course looks, but this seems a lot better than being in snowy New York today!

Just my two cents.

Kevin

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin D,

I'm anxious to play it especially after your experience.
Agree on the $ 15 valet charge

Was the course fast and firm and how were the greens in terms of pace and responding to spin ?
Put another way, what kind of pitch marks did approach shots make ?

How long did it take you to drive from South Beach to Doral ?

[Kevin_D]

Kevin D,

I'm anxious to play it especially after your experience.
Agree on the $ 15 valet charge

Was the course fast and firm and how were the greens in terms of pace and responding to spin ?
Put another way, what kind of pitch marks did approach shots make ?

How long did it take you to drive from South Beach to Doral ?

Pat,

You will not be disappointed. I went as a single, but was paired with three terrific guys, and we all loved the place.

The course played fairly fast and firm. Not National in August firm (ok, I haven't actually experienced that, but am guessing), but run up shots are certainly possible - if you don't have a bunker blocking you. My iron shots were making small-ish marks, and I hit a VERY high ball.

You will also enjoy the fact that the WIND has great effect on the course - more so than it felt. Yardages played drastically longer or shorter depending on which way the wind was blowing.

In the early morning (I left at 6am), it took me about 25 minutes (or even less) to get from the W to the course. Probably 30 or so getting back after noon. For now at least, you pull into the spa entrance, valet your car, and can either take a cart or walk over to the course (5 min walk). Breakfast doesn't really start until 7, so if you are playing early I would grab something elsewhere.

I would love to hear your reaction when you play it. I liked it so much I am considering heading back tomorrow.

By the way, one other point I failed to mention - the Red course is totally torn up. They are doing a complete redo. Not sure if that will be Hanse as well or not. When you think about an owner with deep pockets and a ton of land in a top winter destination, this place has the potential to be a very, very exciting golf resort.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin,

With it's proximity to the airport I wonder how much it will compete with and harm Streamsong ?

[Rees Milikin]

Kevin,

If you don't mind me asking, what is cost of a round at the Blue Monster?  I have looked on the website and cannot find it.

Edit: finally found the green fee.

[Kevin_D]

Pat - it's close to the airport, maybe 10 minutes. That said, I don't think it will take much, if any, business from Streamsong. I think Doral Blue is great, but it's VERY expensive, and the golf is still not terribly different from what most east coasters know. Streamsong, being links like (despite not being on water) is so different, I see it as more of a pure golf destination, and is better value (though it is also expensive, just less so). But the new Doral will provide a much needed option for those going to Miami, and I think most staying at top Miami Beach hotels (or, say, the Mandarin in town) won't blink at the high prices. Frankly, I was just hoping for something passable (as you know, the bar here for public golf is low) and instead I got something terrific.

I'm playing again tomorrow morning 

Rees - it's $450 plus taxes and tip for caddies.

[Greg Tallman]

Pat,

We are not talking about Pine Valley or its "mission" but I will galdly listen(read) as the master spins his tale (or perhaps tail) explaining to we unlearned few.

Greg,

"YOU", and YOU alone brought up Pine Valley, in your reply # 54, NOT ME.

This site is about discussing the merits of the final product. It does not matter who did the work, what the constrainter were or were not... etc. Is it good or not?

"Good" for whom ?
A narrow slice of the golfing spectrum or the entire spectrum ?

Don't you bother to read what you type ?

While my reading comprehension might well be lacking I think you are the one who introduced Pine Valley into this discussion. Either that or the final two words in your reply #50, which I believe came before my reply #54, are code for something else.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Greg,

It was your uninformed reply # 49 that triggered my reply # 50.

Context Greg, context.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

It was your uninformed reply # 49 that triggered my reply # 50.

Context Greg, context.

Pat, You introduced Pine Valley into the discussion and then stated otherwise. Period. Now lay some bold, 18 pt green words on me. 

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