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Mark Saltzman

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A new centreline bunker 100 yards short of the green make 2nd shots far more interesting:




A water hazard has been brought hard against the edge of the putting surface, which tilts sharply toward the hazard:




Short par-4 2nd where the golfer must flirt with the bunkers on the right:




Or face an awkward downwind pitch to a green sloping away:




The par-4 3rd is as I remember it... extremely difficult with hazard running the entire right side.  A remarkably difficult green awaits:




With a predominant wind from the left, the 4th is a difficult par-3 with no real bailout:




A tee shot up the left on the 5th is required to have any view of the flag:




Flanking fairway bunkers at the 6th give way to a sharply angled green:




An interesting tee shot at the very long par-4 7th.  A series of bunkers cut into the fairway from the left, and challenging them is a must as tee shots right of centre will kick into a bunker or deep rough:




With water short of the green, missing the fairway will likely mean a lay-up, though a well-played tee shot down the left rewards the golfer with an opportunity to run the ball onto the putting surface:




The 8th is a massively changed hole, with the 8th green being moved some 50 yards to the left.  The golfer must think his way around this hole as the more he bails out from the water, the more difficult the approach into the green:






The 9th has a new set of teeing grounds, located where the 8th green once was.  Missing short is an option.  




Missing right, is not:




A considerably shorter yardage and a much improved angle to avoid fairway bunkering on the lay-up are the rewards for the golfer brave (or foolish) enough to take on the left side.  For reference, the white stake in line with the second bunker is a 235 yard carry from the blue tees:




Bunkers along the right have a foreshortening effect as they hide much fairway short of the green.  The green is very long, with a dip in its centre, and it wouldn't be a huge stretch to call it biarritz-esque:




Hmmm, what line to take at the 11th?  A massive bunker is both cross- and centre- line bunker and the golfer must choose whether to take it on, or play cautiously to the left:







The 12th, the longest hole on the course, is a 600+ yard par-5 made shorter by the usual tailwind.  Like the tee shots on 6 and 14, this tee shot requires a straight drive between flanking bunkers.  Failure to execute means there is little hope of reaching the green in regulation.  Even the lay-up area is flanked by bunkers.  Golfers content to leave a 150+ yard approach can play to the fairway's width, but those hoping for a wedge approach will need to challenge the narrowed portion of fairway.




Difficult to see from the fairway, but the green extends well to the right offering a very challenging 'Sunday pin position'.  I suspect the back-right pin well be seldom seen in regular resort play, but these types of pins are a great way to make a course more difficult for a tournament while not affecting playability on a daily basis.




If a par-3 that plays 225 yards, uphill and with a cross wind was not difficult enough, Hanse has instated a sharp diagonal ridge that runs the length of the green.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 08:39:27 PM by Mark Saltzman »

Connor Dougherty

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Mark,
The pictures look great. From what it looks like the course looks even better.

With as many water hazards as there are, do you think the "retail golfer" will lose a fortune's worth of golf balls out there?

I love the 2nd hole, that bunker on the left (from what it looks like in the pictures) is just screaming for you to hit your drive over it, but it's the bunkers to the right that you should be flirting with.

I look forward to the rest of the thread.

Connor
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Mark Saltzman

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Connor,

Even with lots and lots of width, I found the course to be remarkably difficult.  Like you said, water everywhere, but also many greens with unforgiving perimeters that run off into water/bunker and some pretty severe internal contours.  There is usually an opportunity to tack your way around trouble, but heck, 'I didn't come all this way to lay up.'

There are some pretty severe features at Boston GC, but it felt like a golf course I would love playing everyday.  I can't the same about Trump Doral.  But that's not a negative (or at least, I don't mean it as one).  It is a resort course most well-known for hosting a PGA Tour tournament.  I think the renovations will prove to be successful on both of those fronts.

Matthew Rose

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I don't recall #8 and #9 being so radically different on the original plans. The drawings I saw had these holes being pretty much the same as before.

Were these changes made much later?
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Frank Pont

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Guys,  is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?

What am I missing? Yes its Hanse renovation, but the result is still a course that is flat, water on every hole, horribly palm lined, and quite overbunkered. The greens look like the only really nice part of the course. No comparisson to the results at LACC, Rustic Canyon etc...

Not writing this to critique Gil, I'm sure he did what he could to improve the course, but with such a site there is only so much you can do.

Looking at the pics I have zero desire to see or play this course.....
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 03:36:25 AM by Frank Pont »

Thomas Dai

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As ever an interesting tour from Mark. Thank you for sharing it wish us. However, the photo above kinda highlights what I dislike about modern day golf. Just MO, others can love it if they wish.
atb

Grant Saunders

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At the risk of taking an unpopular stance, I actually think a long lined more regular shaped bunker (Rees Jones type or even an Augusta shape) would fit this landscape better. All the mowing lines and contouring are gentle and soft which to me appears somewhat incongruent with the busy shapes of the bunkers.

The row of perfectly spaced palm trees makes me want to barf.

Steve Lapper

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Guys,  is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?

What am I missing? Yes its Hanse renovation, but the result is still a course that is flat, water on every hole, horribly palm lined, and quite overbunkered. The greens look like the only really nice part of the course. No comparisson to the results at LACC, Rustic Canyon etc...

Not writing this to critique Gil, I'm sure he did what he could to improve the course, but with such a site there is only so much you can do.

Looking at the pics I have zero desire to see or play this course.....

Frank,

   You asked, so let's go.

  Doral is, and always was, a seminal Dick Wilson design on a flat wetland and sand property.Wilson was well known for his elaborate and expansive bunkering, often using them to visually disrupt the golfer when picking a strategic line of play. Wilson's blend of large and small greens, all with subtly difficult slopes and rolls, was in his day very cutting-edge.  The wind is ever-present and plays an integral role in determining where to play each shot and, in some cases, even how the shot will roll out . I played the Blue many times as a kid in the late 60s and 70s and learned how to flight my ball on this property.

  Ponds and lakes are necessary evils for Florida golf, serving as effective storm-water drainage and irrigation storage systems. They are ubiquitous and nary a single course in the state fails to bring a good number into play.  Palm trees and mangrove are indigenous flora to the area and judging by the height of many on the property, have been there for 20-40yrs. They are taller and skinnier than wide and provide interesting, but highly-playable definitions of corridors. That was the DNA of this site long before Gil & Jim were hired to restore and renovate the Blue Monster. To their immense credit they choose to honor and restore the Wilson-features, instead of putting a heavier hand on the property.

   Your comparisons to LACC & Rustic Canyon are ludicrous and their tone, borderline insulting. GCA is all inclusive and not limited to revetted pot bunkers found in Northern Europe. The land should and does dictate what type(s) of architecture are feasible. It is a talented and successful architect that adheres to such principle instead of bringing pre-conceived style and fixed ideas to the job. Trump gave Gil & Jim free reign to do most whatever they wanted and they choose a relatively minimal approach with the emphasis on mixing fun and authentic strategy into an iconic PGA tour stop. Such is the mark of  thoughtful and intelligent architecture.

  Callow knocks like yours, delivered on this site, serve only to dilute the constructive influence that GCA.com has brought to modern architectural practices and criticism. Maybe you can't stand the thought of Trump getting a wee bit of credit for choosing Gil & Jim (instead of oft-used others)? I don't know. Instead, I'll ask how would you feel if someone whose never set foot onto your work, harshly condemned it from a few photos?

  It's certainly defendable to prefer one style over another. For sure, I'd rather put a peg in the ground in Mullen or Melbourne, but Miami is closer and offers something for my wife and kids. I'm sure Doral will do just find without your greens fee, but for the rest of us who find ourselves looking for enjoyable golf in Florida instead of the Netherlands, we'll look forward to playing this flat over bunkered, H2O laden, palm-infested place.


Cheers!
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 07:15:12 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Martin Toal

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I assumed at first that the ghastly fountain thingy was a photoshop joke.

Sadly I suspect it is not.

Ronald Montesano

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A) I thought the fountain was the centreline bunker Mark referenced...strike one against me. Thomas Dai, I can assure you that I've not seen a similar fountain on any course I've played. Modern golf is safe. That fountain has nothing to do with golf. Is there a local rule if you hit it, a la power lines?

B) I interpreted Frank's question "Guys,  is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?" to be a call to commentary. The comments following Mark's photo tour were gentle and a bit empty. Frank, my response to that would be that it's early in the life of the thread and these photos don't give me enough of a perspective to comment, a la Steve Lapper's zen-infused comment/question "Instead, I'll ask how would you feel if someone whose never set foot onto your work, harshly condemned it from a few photos?"

C) Mark photographs golf courses as a service to others. He could be chasing cart girls AND shooting 73, or texting AND shooting 73, or wrestling gators AND shooting 73, but he chooses to snap a few images here and there. In this case, Doral Blue appears to be so expansive, with such anticipated changes, that there was no way that pictures while golfing would do it justice. I also suspect that different and elevated camera angles would have shown off more fairway options. Mark centered his attention on the bunkering.

D) Victoria Hills in Deland, Florida, is a wonderful golf course, with scrub brush and unkempt areas. Mr. Trump would never allow such brake on his courses, especially the one to be featured annually in a WGC event. To say that "Trump gave Gil & Jim free reign to do most whatever they wanted and they choose a relatively minimal approach with the emphasis on mixing fun and authentic strategy into an iconic PGA tour stop" is a bit suspect, or at least in need of a caveat. Doral Blue demands transit around the course, from television people to touring professionals and their entourage, from gallery denizens to resort guests. It's a stadium course, not a hidden gem uncovered and polished, far from the attention of the world.

E) Grant is not incorrect when he writes "All the mowing lines and contouring are gentle and soft which to me appears somewhat incongruent with the busy shapes of the bunkers." Mark, is there a mowing lines-versus-bunker shapes incongruency throughout the course?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Steve Lapper

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Ron,

    Nice post. Victoria Hills is indeed a wonderful course (and little less emblematic of prototypical Florida golf). Back when I was doing the drive btw Orlando and Daytona, I'd always try to find some time to play there.

    If you ask Gil & Jim, they'd say the Donald gave them free reign so long as they recognized that it remain a competitive and worthy PGA tour stop. I'd also wager a buck or two that they were thinking how to reinvigorate the property for the average player as well, and added/changed a few tees accordingly. Having seen their original plan drawings a few years back, and toured the property while under construction, it looked as if all of the principals were comfortable that they could achieve both.

   I think you are right to describe it as a "stadium course," however when viewed alongside the remainder of the Wilson portfolio, it is once again a gem, albeit not uncovered and in need of polish. The real underrated Wilson gem lies a few miles north in Boynton Beach. There, Pine Tree (Hogan once called it "the best flat course he'd ever played") gets little of the attention it truly deserves.

  I love to see Mark's photo tours…a great asset to GCA.com! Keep'em coming!
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 08:25:30 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

jeffwarne

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1.Guys,  is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?

2.What am I missing? Yes its Hanse renovation, but the result is still a course that is flat, water on every hole, horribly palm lined, and quite overbunkered. The greens look like the only really nice part of the course. No comparisson to the results at LACC, Rustic Canyon etc...

3.Not writing this to critique Gil, I'm sure he did what he could to improve the course, but with such a site there is only so much you can do.

4.Looking at the pics I have zero desire to see or play this course.....

Frank.
with respect,.

1,Hopefully not-maybe there is a little less groupthink lately

2 .Did you expect the everglades to not be still flat? Did you think Trump asked for Rustic Canyon in tropical  Miami at the site of a well known iconic Tour site designed by Dick Wilson? (I don't think Gil's charge was "value golf")
I would think a respected architect such as yourself would never consider drawing comparisons between  rolling sites in the west to a dead flat site on reclaimed everglades, where there was already an architectural  template with heritage and pedigree.(at least from fans, Tour players, and longtime hotel guests)

3. if there's "only so much you can do" ? why the critique? (I happen to think there's a lot he did do, and more importantly, a LOT he didn't do)
Disclaimer:I taught at Doral for 10 years in the winter, and quite a few of the changes at Doral were ones my friends and I often speculated about- esp. the changes at 1, 10, and 16 being the most frequently bantered about)

4.Doral is a well known Tour site, which for years heralded the beginning of spring for many, including the tour players after freezing on the west coast and often in the desert. People want to play well known, flashy places. (and yes see palm trees-the offensive line you are seeing the loudest is new and lining the new expanded driving range)
Most importantly, Doral has always been about warm weather in Dec-March-of course there are better places for the more sophisticated architecture aficionado to visit in the other 8 months.

Looking out my window,I'd love to be teeing it up there right about now ;) ;D



« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 01:00:47 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kevin_D

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Mark,

Nice pics! I had hoped to be the first to post here when I play next month...how silly of me to think someone wouldn't beat me to the punch.

Curious, difficulty notwithstanding, did you enjoy playing the course? It looks hard, but kind of fun, and I am looking forward to playing it, even though I am probably in the lose-a-dozen-balls crowd.

Steve,

I nominate your comments for an early post of the year in 2014.

Cheers,
Kevin

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Guys,  is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?

What am I missing? Yes its Hanse renovation, but the result is still a course that is flat, water on every hole, horribly palm lined, and quite overbunkered. The greens look like the only really nice part of the course. No comparisson to the results at LACC, Rustic Canyon etc...

Not writing this to critique Gil, I'm sure he did what he could to improve the course, but with such a site there is only so much you can do.

Looking at the pics I have zero desire to see or play this course.....

Frank,

I don't think Gil was going for the same aesthetic he produced at LACC/Rustic/Boston.

Overall, and especially having played the previous iteration, I think the results are phenomenal.  You really do forget the site is flat while playing as you're presented with several challenging/heroic/penal shots and a majority of strategic/thought-provoking shots, and highly contoured greens whose tilt ties into the strategy of the holes.

Maybe my photos don't portray the course well, but I would urge you to see it for yourself.  It's quite good.

Carl Rogers

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The 0.0001% of superlative golf courses on one of a kind sites that are praised here.  They deserve it.

However there are so many properities that cannot possibly approach that ideal, what does the archie do on all the rest?  The Trump Doral may represent that.   It seems that Mr. Hanse & Mr. Wagner have take what is there and made a course with more definition to it.  The 8th hole, for the Tour Pro, looks to be a much more demanding and better hole now.

As usual there are corollary threads having to do with purely manufacturered courses from dead flat sites with no views etc.  

But that said, if I am going to Florida and spend serious $, Streamsong would be my destination.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark,

Nice pics! I had hoped to be the first to post here when I play next month...how silly of me to think someone wouldn't beat me to the punch.

Curious, difficulty notwithstanding, did you enjoy playing the course? It looks hard, but kind of fun, and I am looking forward to playing it, even though I am probably in the lose-a-dozen-balls crowd.

Steve,

I nominate your comments for an early post of the year in 2014.

Cheers,
Kevin

Kevin,

Absolutely I enjoyed it!  I don't know exactly what I shot, 78ish, maybe.  I'm sure had I been losing balls every other hole I would have been a little frustrated.  Very engaging course with no real let-up.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0

E) Grant is not incorrect when he writes "All the mowing lines and contouring are gentle and soft which to me appears somewhat incongruent with the busy shapes of the bunkers." Mark, is there a mowing lines-versus-bunker shapes incongruency throughout the course?

Ron, I guess, I dunno.  Didn't notice it while playing.

Chris Mavros

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great photos.  FL courses seem to have certain characteristics that have been outlined above, such as ample water hazards, wetland areas, extensive bunkering and flat terrain.  Other than the fountain in the first photo, the course looks well done to me and fits in nicely with the surrounding environment.  Thanks for posting the photos and look forward to seeing the back 9 at some point.  

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Guys,  is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?

What am I missing? Yes its Hanse renovation, but the result is still a course that is flat, water on every hole, horribly palm lined, and quite overbunkered. The greens look like the only really nice part of the course. No comparisson to the results at LACC, Rustic Canyon etc...

Not writing this to critique Gil, I'm sure he did what he could to improve the course, but with such a site there is only so much you can do.

Looking at the pics I have zero desire to see or play this course.....

Frank,

I don't think Gil was going for the same aesthetic he produced at LACC/Rustic/Boston.

 contoured greens whose tilt ties into the strategy of the holes.


+1
+1-love the idea of more tilt, and using it to compliment strategy

Mark,
On the 7th, can the left bunkers be carried?
Looks like a tough driving hole-was always a bit awkward.

Doral is one of the few older tour site properties where expansion was doable without creating a lot of walkbacks, and there's plaenty of width, despite bringing some of the playing areas nearer the water.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
I didn't see any malice in Frank's post either, but that doesn't mean people can't (vehemently) disagree! Not that I have any basis - I have never been to Doral - but I do plan to go and the pictures haven't dissuaded me (even with that fountain  ;D)

Not to thread jack, but incidentally, Kelly, I played your absolutely wonderful course, Hideout, this past weekend, and have been meaning to post some pics somewhere and mention how much I enjoyed it. Yet, looking back at my pictures, even that course - which is so different than so many Florida courses - still has a decent amount of water, and is pretty flat. As such, I noticed that my pics just don't convey how cool and fun the course is.

Cheers,
Kevin

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Nicely put, Kelly.
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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
I did not see any malice in Frank Pont's post. Flat courses are difficult to photograph and convey any design integrity; certainly the hideous palm tree landscaping betrays what otherwise may be great golf design. Mark S. does a nice job in his commentary by giving snippets of information about the playing strategy. What is disappointing and typical of this site is most of the commentary focuses solely on what look the pictures portray rather than seeking more information about the strategy of each hole. Most here want to give opinions, few ask questions. There is a surprising lack of curiosity on threads like this; most people want to act like they get it, make positive comments and affirmations that they have no way of justifying, all in a way I guess to show solidarity with the favorite architects here. I see this manifested in the way Frank has been treated after his post.

Umm Kelly, I didn't see much malice in Frank's post either
He just doesn't like the pictures and this is the place for "Frank" ;D commentary, especially from a respected architect such as himself.
But he did ask what he was missing ;) ;D.

There have been multiple replies, and only one perhaps has more "malice" than Frank's post.
Perhaps that's the old GCA he refers to. It certainly used to be a much nastier place, despite what the revisionists would tell you.

If you do notice, I do comment in my second reply to Mark with a question, and comment on the tilt Mark highlights and its affect on strategy.
I think there is going to be plenty more for the architecturally minded to admire at Doral than there was before, while also keeping it relevant for their Tour event, which the hosting of has ALWAYS been their #1 marketing strategy .

I must say though Kelly, your disappointment at the commentary being directed at "what the pictures portray", is precisely why I took issue with Frank's critique.
I didn't see any thought provoking questions from Frank, just a blanket critique, and a stated opinion to "have no desire to see it or play there" which he is of course entitled to.

I think Mark will agree, a flat site is difficult to photograph, and Mark's pictures are taken while playing, showing a player's perspective, which doesn't always highlight perfect light and eye candy angles.

BTW, I think some form of the fountain has always been there

and it's called the "Blue Monster" , not the Green Kitten ;D ;D  still has WAAAAAAY less water, and I'd venture far more width, than the much loved TPC Sawgrass course
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 11:44:15 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Kevin and Kelly (and Frank, of course)

Anyone who doesn't read a challenge into "Guys,  is this the same GolfClubAtlas I joined a couple of years ago?" is numb. I like that Frank got to the point of his thread and asked me (and others) to sit back and consider exactly what we were seeing in the pictures and reading in the commentary.

I don't know if I'd call it "malice" but I would certainly call it a call to arms.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
KBM,

Are there any questions you want to ask about the strategy of certain holes? Happy to try to answer.

Jeff, re no. 7. Yes, very much so. 215 to carry on the shortest line from the 6700 yard blue tees. About 230 a little farther left. +60 yards from the tournament tees. The hole plays downwind, so if playing the right tees, the bunkers are carry able with a well hit drive. Like I said above, taking on the bunkers is very much a necessity if you want to hit the green in regulation.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark,

How long does 8 play from tips and regular tees, now?

Is the drive as intimidating as the one on 18?

Does the new green site accept a shot bounced in from the right, or must a ball reach the putting surface through the air?

Thanks for your answers to these questions.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!