[Andrew Hastie]

If we are talking created courses and Kyle Phillips than De Lage Vuursche is a good example, dead flat farm land. Finished around the same time as Kingsbarns.
www.golflagevuursche.nl

[Keith Grande]

If we ranked the courses by most amount of earth moved (not sure there is a list out there?), would any of the top ten earn a rating higher than Doak 6?

[PCCraig]

Every golf course is "created." We must be drinking a whole lot of kool-aid to believe every story about XYZ minimalist design that was "found" at XYZ site.

Much like the Donald Ross thread, I'd have to ask if it really matters if a course is "more created" (?) than another if all that matters is the finished product?  

[Michael Felton]

It's hard to separate admiration for an engineering project from admiration for a course.  It is certainly understandable to respect the engineering marvel in Shadow Creek without regarding it highly as a course.  But I guess that's your point, Tom.  I can't think of a great course that did not begin with a decent piece of land.  That's properly absolutely necessary.

What about Winged Foot West? It's definitely a great course and Tillinghast definitely got a lot out of the property.

[Jay Mickle]

Mike Stranz's Bulls Bay where he created the highest point along the coast from NJ to FL is surely one. The high point is the location of the clubhouse. Splines radiate out from the mound creating inbound and outbound fairways. Around the perimeter are numerous lakes that he created to mine the material for the clubhouse perch. S sight to behold, a fun course to play.

[Frank Pont]

For me the ultimate test of a constructed course is if the landscape and landforms look natural.

A lot of the courses mentioned here flunk that test, eg Golf National and Lage Vuursche. In both cases the hills and landforms are far too round and fabricated to be natural. Making natural looking hills and hollows is really hard as Tom Simpson and George Waters independently have stated.

[Andrew Hastie]

De Lage Vuursche does indeed have less believable shaping, actually very similar to Kingsbarns. But Coore and Crenshaw got it right at Friars Head in the section that was a former potato farm.

[Frank Pont]

Coore and Crenshaw got it right at Friars Head in the section that was a former potato farm.

+1

[Bill_McBride]

Tom
Was Wolf Point "created"?
A few holes were "found"
More were "created"
Several were a combination
Cheers

Except for the large lake and the central hill created from the spoil, Wolf Point might be the most "uncreated" course I've seen. 

[Tom_Doak]

De Lage Vuursche does indeed have less believable shaping, actually very similar to Kingsbarns. But Coore and Crenshaw got it right at Friars Head in the section that was a former potato farm.

Getting the last six outs is really important, which is why Mariano Rivera was a great pitcher.  

This thread is more about whether anyone has pitched a perfect game -- had to do earthwork on every hole, and got it all right.

[Bill_McBride]

Did anyone mention The Lido?

How great would it be if someone could recreate that course?

[Tom_Doak]

Every golf course is "created." We must be drinking a whole lot of kool-aid to believe every story about XYZ minimalist design that was "found" at XYZ site.

Much like the Donald Ross thread, I'd have to ask if it really matters if a course is "more created" (?) than another if all that matters is the finished product?  

Pat:

No, it doesn't matter.  But I'm challenging the notion that it is easy, or even possible, for a "more created" course to turn out as well as a "less created" course.  It's theoretically possible, but it doesn't seem to be very common, based on the responses so far.  Most of the best courses have significant stretches where the quality is derived from the natural features of the property.

[Tom_Doak]

Did anyone mention The Lido?

How great would it be if someone could recreate that course?

Lido was on the ocean and on the Intracoastal waterway, which did have something to do with the high esteem in which it was held -- but all of the features were indeed created.

Take it away from the ocean, and you have Chicago Golf Club, which no one has mentioned yet.  But the property there is quite gentle, and there really aren't any natural features that assert themselves in the course -- all the green sites are artificial, as are all the bunkers, and even the pond I think.  Just because they didn't build huge mounds doesn't disqualify it.

[Jud_T]

If we ranked the courses by most amount of earth moved (not sure there is a list out there?), would any of the top ten earn a rating higher than Doak 6?

Well Shadow Creek got a Doak 9...While not a world-beater, the Glen Club is pretty impressive given that it started as a Naval air base and doesn't look as manufactured as some of Faz's other courses.  Also the Wynn, Las Vegas is a decent track, even if I'm sentimental about the old Desert Inn course.  In fact, I think Fazio is perhaps more suited to this approach than to a great site that needs little done to it.

[Steve Lapper]

Winged Foot West may be a deserved candidate. So many greens and tees were pushed up on an otherwise mostly flattish property.

[Matt Bosela]

I'd offer up Sagebrush in British Columbia as a possible answer.

Tom: If I'm wrong, please correct me but I'm under the impression that you sent Jim Urbina up to look at the property at one point with Dick Zokol and the overriding impression was that it was going to be almost impossible to build a golf course there.

While it's not perfect, I think Rod Whitman did an outstanding job working that site to create a workable routing, walkability issues aside.

[Garland Bayley]

Sagebrush? I think Whitman just found the routing that would work on the landscape. The didn't have enough money to create a course in my understanding.

The Home Course and Old Works were created on top of toxic sites.

It's been quite a while since I played Old Works, but I would say it is my preferred of the two.

Chambers Bay would be my preferred, but the proximity to water disqualifies it, whereas The Home Course's proximity doesn't give you much view of the water, so still qualifies IMO.

[Kyle Casella]

Tom- would you consider Streamsong in the "more created" or "less created" category?

[Matt Bosela]

Sagebrush? I think Whitman just found the routing that would work on the landscape. The didn't have enough money to create a course in my understanding.

That's not the case - I toured the course with Dick Zokol and I know for a fact that a LOT of work was done to work the landscape, especially on hole #8. 

Dick's quote, if I remember correctly, was "Rod moved a mountain to make that hole".

[John McCarthy]

Of the courses I have played Chicago Highlands should be on the list.  Solid 6 IMO.  It was sand-capped on top of a garbage dump.  There are quite a few garbage dump courses around Chicagoland:  Settler's Hill, Harborside, that course in Northbrook off Willow.  No natural landform whatsoever.  And wouldn't all the quarry courses qualify?  Liberty National was a dump, no?  

[JMEvensky]

Winged Foot West may be a deserved candidate. So many greens and tees were pushed up on an otherwise mostly flattish property.

QR also?

[Jay Mickle]

Twisted Gun Golf Club in Wharncliffe, WV is a mountain top removal site. After the strip mining and in a deal with the EPA the mining company undertook a reclamation project by creating a golf course. I was told that in one area at least a fairway was created with 300’ of fill. It may seem like a lot but viewing the flattened mountain tops in the distance you realize that the volume of earth moved is unearthly.
  http://ohvec.org/galleries/reclamation/twisted_gun/index.html

[James Brown]

Three that come to mind:

I would say Streamsong was "created," even though the land was there with lots of natural potential. 

Castle Course at St. Andrews was a piece of play land and turned out to be beautiful, if not one of my favorites, personally. 

Would also say Twisted Dune in Atlantic City stands out as manufactured but hitting this certain look we talk about.   

[Joe Stansell]

Chambers Bay is an obvious choice but would have to be excluded for its most-favored setting the same as Whistling Straights and Castle Stuart.

Garland, the Home Course is a nice effort but wouldn't contend if the Rawls Course doesn't contend.

[JNagle]

Indian Creek was mentioned earlier.  366 acre man made island built in the 20's.  The grading plan for the course is amazing.  

Cannot help but put Pine Tree in this grouping.  Started out as a flat farm which Wilson built the course upon and created some decent elevation changes.  

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