[Tom_Doak]

On another thread, Adrian Stiff described Le Golf National in Paris as one of the best "faux" golf courses in Europe.

People are always speculating that there is no reason a great course can't be created from scratch, and certainly many have tried.  How many have truly succeeded?  I'd like to see this thread answer the question:  what are the best courses that were created?

I will start by saying that two of the best jobs of natural-looking earthmoving I've seen are at Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart.  However, I think both of those [along with Whistling Straits] should be disqualified from this list, because their waterfront settings are such an integral part of the design.  They hardly started with nothing!  If we're going to list them, they should be a separate list, really.

I'll take my own courses out of consideration, as well.  The Rawls Course is the most "created" course I've done, and it's well regarded, but it finished way down the list of my own courses when you all ranked them.  

So what is there that's really outstanding?  

[Douglas Kelley]

I'd think that Shadow Creek would be high on this list.

[Michael Felton]

I quite enjoyed Bayonne. I'm not sure I'd call it a "great" course, but it was a lot of fun and certainly fits the "manufactured" requirement.

[Adrian_Stiff]

On another thread, Adrian Stiff described Le Golf National in Paris as one of the best "faux" golf courses in Europe.

People are always speculating that there is no reason a great course can't be created from scratch, and certainly many have tried.  How many have truly succeeded?  I'd like to see this thread answer the question:  what are the best courses that were created?

I will start by saying that two of the best jobs of natural-looking earthmoving I've seen are at Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart.  However, I think both of those [along with Whistling Straits] should be disqualified from this list, because their waterfront settings are such an integral part of the design.  They hardly started with nothing!  If we're going to list them, they should be a separate list, really.

I'll take my own courses out of consideration, as well.  The Rawls Course is the most "created" course I've done, and it's well regarded, but it finished way down the list of my own courses when you all ranked them.  

So what is there that's really outstanding?  

Tom I can understand why you say they (CS & KB) hardly started with nothing and I was thinking the same. What this does prove is the outskirts of a 'parcel of land' has a value and by default if it was an ugly factory it would have a value that was negative.

Paris National was built on a flat parcel of land of nothing and for that reason the end product should get a good thumbs up really, thats not saying it is perfect, it is certainly very hard and more than half the golfing population cant get round, it has lots of forced carries and whilst tees forward mitigate the tee shots, you still have a few 100 yard approaches over water. It is a shame they did not rootzone the fairways to 100mm, maybe they still could.

[archie_struthers]

 

Think we've been here before. Short list of really good ones would be Bayonne , Kingsbairns and Indian Creek

[jeffwarne]

Long Cove.

Holes 5,6,7,8,9 as created as they come, but blend right in, despite the actual flat topography

[Phil Lipper]

I think the two that were already mentioned would be high on any "all manufactured" list. Both Shadow and Bayonne are unique in that the environment was created and the golf course was dropped in. I am always amazed by the engineering of Bayonne everytime I play the course, its hard to believe what it was before they built the course.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Tom
Was Wolf Point "created"?
A few holes were "found"
More were "created"
Several were a combination
Cheers

[Kevin_D]

Shooting star

[Frank Giordano]

While visiting with Hank Haney on the driving range at PGA West, shortly after he became director of golf there, he pointed to the land that was about to become the second course there.  It was unrelentingly flat; even the mirages over the burning sand showed no movement!  The same type of landscape, he advised, was what Pete Dye was confronted with when he first arrived on the site.  Hank compared the sight to an rtist's blank canvas.  Everything you'll see out there today, he insisted, Pete created.

[Josh Bills]

Dye courses come to mind, Old Marsh, TPC Sawgrass.  Bayonne is solid for amount of space used and amount of dredge added I don't believe the view of cranes enhanced the site. I feel comfortable calling these great courses at least two of three.

[Daryl David]

Along the same lines as Shadow Creek and PGA West I would add The Madison Club.  If you saw the land before it would stun you as to what is there now.

[Cristian]

Colt's St Germain

[Richard Choi]

Whistling Strait and Chambers Bay are high on this list.

[Nigel Islam]

Would Victoria National make the cut?

[Matt Bielawa]

I probably would have said TPC Sawgrass.

[Niall C]

Tom

Presumably you mean courses that were largely created as a whole as opposed to many of the older traditional greats that evolved into greatness through many changes over the years. If that's the case then I think the nearest to it in Scotland would be Carnoustie. While Allan Robertson and Tom Morris might have laid out versions of Carnoustie prior to 1926 it was largely Braid who was responsible for the present laytout when he virtually designed a new course, and even then his last four holes were redesigned a few years later to "strengthen" them. Of course, I'm making the assumption or offering the view that Carnoustie is great which I certainly think it is.

I'm not sure I would say the same of KB or CS although KB is a lot closer to it than CS in my opinion. Both may well evolve into greatness in the future when more enlightened owners   take over and make changes, however that would most certainly disqualify them from this category.

Niall

[Nigel Islam]

Niall, I took it to mean the land the course started on looks nothing like the finished product. Maximalism if you will.

[Thomas Dai]

Here's some for consideration -

course created from a swamp - TPC Sawgrass
course created from a nursery - ANGC
course created from a rubbish tip - Le Golf National
course created from a total sand desert - Emirates Dubai

atb

[Kyle Casella]

Have not played it but I would think Calusa Pines would be up there from what I hear. Didn't they spend a small fortune on TNT?

[Niall C]

Niall, I took it to mean the land the course started on looks nothing like the finished product. Maximalism if you will.

Nigel

I suspect that most finished courses differ a fair amount from what the architect started with even if humongous amounts of earth weren't shifted however I take your point that perhaps Tom/Adrian were referring to courses at the top end of earth moving which CS and KB both belong.

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

I think Yas Links is pretty impressive as a constructed course, but of course it has the water too. Budersand in Germany is another very impressive piece of construction, and all the better because it reinstated a dune system (it is surrounded by natural dunes) where there had previously been an air base.

[Jim Hoak]

It's hard to separate admiration for an engineering project from admiration for a course.  It is certainly understandable to respect the engineering marvel in Shadow Creek without regarding it highly as a course.  But I guess that's your point, Tom.  I can't think of a great course that did not begin with a decent piece of land.  That's properly absolutely necessary.

[Tom_Doak]

While visiting with Hank Haney on the driving range at PGA West, shortly after he became director of golf there, he pointed to the land that was about to become the second course there.  It was unrelentingly flat; even the mirages over the burning sand showed no movement!  The same type of landscape, he advised, was what Pete Dye was confronted with when he first arrived on the site.  Hank compared the sight to an rtist's blank canvas.  Everything you'll see out there today, he insisted, Pete created.

Frank:

I can testify to the fact that PGA West was a blank site.  I drew the first set of plans for it, and we didn't bother to use a topo map, since there was nothing to latch onto.  Pete just took my roll of tracing paper and rolled it out on the dining room table and said "That's the site.  There are mountains over on the far side."

[Frank Pont]

I really liked the landscape that was created out of a straight slope for the Castle Course (the greens are a different story)

Swinkelsche had 13 holes created out of totally flat land, the other 5 were "found" in the wooded area.

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