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Jason Thurman

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How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« on: January 10, 2014, 08:49:53 AM »
It's politically correct to say that tastes in golf course architecture are purely subjective. But do you ACTUALLY believe that? How much of what we discuss here is objective, and how much is subjective?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jeff Shelman

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2014, 09:00:30 AM »
I think it is probably both objective and subjective.

I think that many to most of the people who post on here have pretty similar ideas on what a bad golf course is and many to most people have pretty similar ideas on what a good golf course is.

I don't believe that there is group think on here, but I do think that the people who hang out here and post here are like-minded in that we all like the game and we like interesting and fun courses. I think the people that I like call the harder is always better crowd hangs out other places.

All of that said, the subjective part comes in analyzing the kinds of good. Some people like one thing, others like something else a little more. Both are good, but it then becomes personal preference.

To me it is no different than people discussing the best restaurant or the best hamburger or the best beer. All of the candidates are pretty good and there really isn't a wrong answer. But the personal preference that makes the final determination on whether someone likes Course A more than Course B when both are really good. is the subjective part.

JMEvensky

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2014, 09:03:06 AM »
Isn't taste,by definition,subjective?

If you're asking if rating golf courses on their perceived merits is more subjective or objective,I'd say it's subjective for everyone on this website except for the architects(with a handful of exceptions).They're the only ones who truly understand what goes into designing/building a golf course.


John Kavanaugh

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2014, 09:15:34 AM »
I'm still waiting for the day Pine Valley doesn't look over treed. If harder wasn't better it wouldn't be even a top ten course. I'm sure many people would have a happier life with an uglier mate. We all knew em, the sweet ones, but we are conditioned to like what our culture has deemed best.  

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2014, 09:27:29 AM »
It's politically correct to say that tastes in golf course architecture are purely subjective. But do you ACTUALLY believe that? How much of what we discuss here is objective, and how much is subjective?
Taste in golf course architecture has to be totally subjective. We discuss things here that are often facts so they are objective.
A set of ratings for instance could be objective or subjective it just depends on the formula/rules.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

JESII

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2014, 09:27:56 AM »
So then, how does that answer the question, Kavanaugh?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2014, 09:37:19 AM »
So then, how does that answer the question, Kavanaugh?

Honestly, I don't know the difference between objective and subjective so do not understand the question. I do know what I like and when pressed on why I rarely like the answer.

JESII

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2014, 09:45:00 AM »
Do you believe your favorite course is factually the best course there is?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2014, 09:52:11 AM »
Do you believe your favorite course is factually the best course there is?

It is the best for me. I don't much care for anything that is best for everyone.

JESII

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2014, 09:55:41 AM »
Agreed!

Tom_Doak

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2014, 10:06:58 AM »
It's politically correct to say that tastes in golf course architecture are purely subjective. But do you ACTUALLY believe that? How much of what we discuss here is objective, and how much is subjective?
Taste in golf course architecture has to be totally subjective. We discuss things here that are often facts so they are objective.
A set of ratings for instance could be objective or subjective it just depends on the formula/rules.

I agree with the first part of what you say; I'd started to type the same thing myself.

I don't agree with the last.  I guess it would be possible to have an objective set of ratings -- in fact, course ratings [i.e. 72.3] are objective, done entirely by formula.  But any attempt to rate or rank what are the best courses is a subjective exercise, and those that break it down into certain criteria [resistance to scoring, conditioning, etc.] are subjective on multiple levels.

Just because something is subjective does not mean every opinion is equally correct.

Jim Sherma

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2014, 10:11:06 AM »
In something like the distinction between the subjective and objective is very fuzzy. Preferences are subjective until molded by group-think, editorial commentary and the idea of connoisseurship.

At that point groups begin to create a hierarchy of the dimensions/criteria that individual subjective preferences were originally based upon. As these hierarchies are systematized and individuals have a frame of reference to discuss their preferences the subjective becomes beholden to the "objective-truths" of the field of study. This would include things like the known list of classics, the examples that must be studied by any serious student, etc. These truths exist in our field of interest as well as various musical and literature genres and obviously art and architecture. Avant garde offshoots primarily redefine the ranking of the preference matrix in order to reclassify the items in their field of study.

Not sure if this makes as much sense as it seems to. Hopefully it adds something to the conversation. It's trus that we may know it when we see it, but it's also true that we think about it with the vocabulary and frames of reference that are functions of the groups that we interact with.  

Jud_T

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2014, 10:11:20 AM »
Jason,

It's a matter of degree.  Ballybunion Old is a better course than Ballybunion Cashen.  It's a matter of fact and you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a single soul that would disagree.  Whether it's a better course than RCD becomes more subjective.  I always refer back to Nuzzo's piece about preferences for Pretty, Challenge or Fun or some combination thereof.  Perhaps a thread like Doak's "Rank my Courses" is more objective.  They're all Doak courses, so the degree of fandom is taken out.  It's statistically significant that most everyone thinks Ballyneal, Pac Dunes and Old Mac are better than Legends Heathland, but not that one guy prefers Old Mac, another Pac Dunes etc.  Then there's price, conditioning, service, etc...That's why I like looking at a consortium of respected raters with price and location factored in.  But you can't get around the fact that a guy like me prefers Fun courses while others prefer Challenge or Pretty.  Then there's the bias for a certain aesthetic, bunker style, one's strengths and weaknesses, links vs. aerial golf etc...But the point isn't necessarily in the result or even the consensus.  It's the process, the discussion itself where little nuggets of knowledge and insight can be gleaned relative to one's own template of experience and interest.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2014, 10:40:09 AM »
It's politically correct to say that tastes in golf course architecture are purely subjective. But do you ACTUALLY believe that? How much of what we discuss here is objective, and how much is subjective?
Taste in golf course architecture has to be totally subjective. We discuss things here that are often facts so they are objective.
A set of ratings for instance could be objective or subjective it just depends on the formula/rules.

I agree with the first part of what you say; I'd started to type the same thing myself.

I don't agree with the last.  I guess it would be possible to have an objective set of ratings -- in fact, course ratings [i.e. 72.3] are objective, done entirely by formula.  But any attempt to rate or rank what are the best courses is a subjective exercise, and those that break it down into certain criteria [resistance to scoring, conditioning, etc.] are subjective on multiple levels.

Just because something is subjective does not mean every opinion is equally correct.
Tom - I am sure we are in agreement. A set of ratings could be objective if say the ratings were "the longest courses in the world", that could produce a top 100 by fact. Unless you have facts it cant be objective.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

John Kavanaugh

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2014, 10:50:37 AM »
This is why ratings panels exists for the panel. I'm glad to see Yelp is being forced to disclose anonymous critics. It is a great step forward towards full disclosure.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2014, 10:59:33 AM »
Adrian, even when compiling fact-based lists like a "longest courses in the world," people will still argue over how to measure. Someone will argue that we should take elevation change into account. Someone else will suggest altitude. Eventually, we’d end up creating a “length quotient” that measures length using a compilation of multiple measurements that we constantly have fodder to argue over.

Humans have a constant craving to assign quantify things objectively by developing subjective measures. That’s what made the analytics revolution in sports so much fun – not only do we have new measurements that give us more ammunition for arguing over which players and teams are the best, but we also have a new layer or argument whereby we dismantle the validity of these new measurements to in turn destroy the argument of our opponent.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

jeffwarne

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2014, 11:04:20 AM »
all of it is subjective.

If it were objective, and all courses began to follow the "formula" eventually there would be no variety, which of course would be one of the objective criteria-thus beginning an endless loop ;D ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2014, 11:12:34 AM »
Its all subjective, even the rating criteria.

As an example, most criteria would probably deduct points for any blind shot.  Some around here would give any blind shot quirk points, and deduct for full vision as too "forumulaic."  

And, how would any system account for things not so controversial, such as the big RTJ style greens vs. the small Harbor Town greens of PD?  Which is better, large or small?  (I know how the supers would vote)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Frank Giordano

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2014, 11:22:44 AM »
Jud and Tom,

So often in reading gcaers' comments on the quality of courses, after someone makes an argument for one course over another, I'm inclined to write, "Does it really matter?  De gustibus non est disputandum!"  When one is talking about "taste" in arts -- from architecture to music to winemaking -- judgments are subjective.  If you know what you like, build it or play it or listen to it or drink it, without guilt or second-guessing because someone else thinks another work is greater.

On the other hand, as others have noted, when knowledgeable critics -- and that word doesn't leave out the amateurs who've been around, seeing and appreciating and sharing impressions with others of their ilk --  evaluate an art creation in terms of long-established criteria, the judgments are pretty likely to come out in the same ballpark or region of the bell curve.  These verdicts are more likely to be objective.  That being said, there will still be individual differences, always subjective in nature, based on the personal experience of the evaluator.

A couple of examples.  Wine tasters at regional and national competitions are, presumably, the most broadly experienced and knowledgeable people available for the judging.  Most often, most judges will know the superior vintages, and rank them within a fairly narrow range.  One will rate a particular wine a 9, while another will give it a 10.  If asked why, one will say something like, "I knew it was an Alexander Valley Cab, and I just love the well-made ones from there."  The other judge might say, "It's a terrific Alexander Valley wine, but you just can't beat a Cab from the Rutherford Bench."  Objective judgments mainly, but subjective in the degree that one's judgment has a modicum of personal preference, enough that it  tips the scale in favor of one high-quality wine over another.

A second example, illustrating the fallacy of theories like Barthes' and some other lesser lights who think aesthetic judgment is purely subjective, emerges from a discussion between two professional teachers of literature at the university level.  In a group discussing the works of several great novelists, one proposed that Charles Dickens was probably the greatest novelist of the Nineteenth Century.  Another suggested Henry James, whom she admitted she could hardly stand, although his greatness was undeniable.  The first scholar couldn't stand reading Henry James either, and wondered how the creator of art -- which by its classical definition should both instruct and please -- could be rated so highly if his work gave little or no pleasure.   When her judgment was questioned, the James proponent insisted that, for her, Dickens was so trivial that his books were unreadable!

That purely subjective judgment, which flew in the face of the experience of the mass audiences Dickens generated for himself and novel writing in general, readers of every level of sophistication, for over a century and a half,  led the first critic to end the discussion on the spot, by retorting, " Dickens judges you; you cannot judge Dickens."   Shaking his head, he muttered under his breath, "I wonder what field she should have entered for her life's work."

To those of my students who used to say, "What's wrong with my interpretation?  That's what I see in the poem," I would usually try to suggest textual and contextual reasons for the misreading -- objective criteria manifest in the poem's actual language -- to help the student see more fully and more clearly.  We were trying to do literary criticism in the class, not simply discussing personal preferences on matters of taste.  That is, objective analysis, not subjective book-tasting.

But to the persistently subjective student, who would not or could not see beyond his own reading, I posed the example of a color-blind driver coming to a signal light and, seeing green when the light was red, or the reverse.  The consequences of inexact vision might then be terribly painful, when objective reality was confronted by your subjective vision.

These observations have relevance for conversations about golf course architecture as well.  When one golfer admits he enjoys playing Arnold Palmer's courses more than Jack Nicklaus' tracks, even though he thinks Jack's are finer works of architecture, he's making a subjective judgment of quality.  To which we must all agree:  De gustibus ..., after all.   But when someone insists that Tillinghast was a greater architect than Flynn, he won't gain our assent without proffering indisputable objective criteria.

Richard Choi

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2014, 11:52:44 AM »
Only objective things we talk about are things like course location, fees, number of bunkers/tees, stimp measurements, etc. The vast majority what we discuss is purely subjective.

Phil Lipper

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2014, 11:57:43 AM »
Its clearly subjective if it wasnt all golf courses would follow some basic formula, thankfully they don't

Peter Pallotta

Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2014, 12:05:42 PM »
We tend to get befuddled by surface appearances. We might praise John Ford movies over those by Woody Allen, but they and every other major american filmmaker is situated within the one, same, dominant narrative form/structure.  Similarly, as I tried to explore in the thread about romantics vs logicians, all the great and good american architects and courses - for all their surface differences -- work with and are shaped by the same dominant principles and ethos. But we often fail to see that, and so we often fail to see the objective at work. At the same time, however, we have too narrow a definition of subjective, or at least of the experience of subjectivity, and instead get beffudled by the surface expressions of personal tastes. How about that secent of lilacs off the first tee, or the poignant ache as the vista from the 10th reminds you of a beloved childhood home? Or the experience of transcendence, as the quiet and the gentle breeze and the sun setting over the last green heals your soul with a peace that passes understanding? Might that lead me to praising a course higher than it 'deserves', even though I never mention any of those or make reference to my personal tastes?

Peter

Tom_Doak

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2014, 12:06:23 PM »
Jud and Tom,

So often in reading gcaers' comments on the quality of courses, after someone makes an argument for one course over another, I'm inclined to write, "Does it really matter?  De gustibus non est disputandum!"  When one is talking about "taste" in arts -- from architecture to music to winemaking -- judgments are subjective.  If you know what you like, build it or play it or listen to it or drink it, without guilt or second-guessing because someone else thinks another work is greater.

Frank:

I agreed with the start of your post, but when you got to the wine tasters, you lost me.  The fact that some vintages are the accepted favorites of the critics, does not make them inherently superior, because they can't really tell us WHY.  There is no there, there, at least in anything I've ever read on the subject.

As you say about literature, just as with golf courses, there are some examples almost universally accepted as great.  If someone doesn't like Dickens, they're entitled to that opinion, but without some really good reasoning to back it up, they draw into question whether their own tastes are worth considering.  [OTOH, if you don't like Dickens, either, they may be well worth listening to.]

Saying that you like course A better than course B is an opinion, but it's only valuable to the extent that I'm willing to trust your opinion.  Saying WHY you like course A better gives me a chance to decide whether your opinion is valid, and perhaps to learn something as well.  For me, that doesn't have to be based on long-established criteria, as long as it's enlightening.

Tom_Doak

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2014, 12:07:43 PM »
Its clearly subjective if it wasnt all golf courses would follow some basic formula, thankfully they don't

It's true, though, that golf architecture has become more formulaic over time -- certain lengths of holes and courses dominate, for example, as do certain sizes for greens and the number of bunkers employed.  There is not nearly as much variety as there could be, or should be.

John Kirk

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Re: How much of this do you REALLY believe is subjective?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2014, 12:31:42 PM »
For those who know me, it is no surprise that I believe course evaluation is primarily objective.  First, on a hole-by-hole basis, and then as an evaluation of the whole course, the complementary sum of the parts.

The comment "you know it when you see it" mostly serves to simplify conversation.  The continuing success of GolfClubAtlas proves that course quality is a long and involved subject.  I suppose it's hard to "prove" one course is better, in a mathematical sense, but an analyst can make superior arguments.

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