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Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A definitive description of what makes a golf course great
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2014, 09:59:40 AM »
What St Dionys like, Ulrich? A course I've heard about a few times, but never seen much of.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A definitive description of what makes a golf course great
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2014, 12:37:35 PM »
I'm a little disappointed in this thread. Perhaps it just is an impossible question however I can't help but to feel that we could do much better than this. If I asked about what courses are great, or which great courses have you played or name the top 20 great courses you've played or want to play everyone would have a list. So basically we are saying that's purely subjective, or is it subjective as long as someone else makes that decision and we don't know why we find these courses great other than that's what we are told.

There must be a certain amount of logic to being able to run through various parameters and say, this course has A and B and C etc etc... therefore it's clearly a great course.

There are far too many people on GCA with deep knowledge of architecture to not be able to create a minimum of a list in order to come up with a clear description of what makes a course great. Even if it were only based on the Top 10 courses in the world. What do they all have in common?

1. Unique variety of memorable holes (ideally 18 completely different and memorable holes)
2. Effective usage of land on which they were built
3. Fluid and efficient routings
4. Dynamic and undulating terrain
5. Superior turf, sand based?
6. Ample challenge and playability for all levels.
7. Fun for all levels? (minimum of lost balls, impossible carries etc)
8. Excellent maintenance and conditioning for play during the "golf season" or year round depending on the climate
9. 18 unique greens and surrounds that challenge the player to think about the approach as well as carefully reading the green for putts.
10. ?

What else?

Does it remain subjective if we only look at the Top 10 courses in the world and determine what they have in common that makes them great?


Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

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Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A definitive description of what makes a golf course great
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2014, 01:04:09 PM »
Hi David,

I gave you my criteria, someone else posted CBM's, you posted your own. What more do you need? A consensus?

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A definitive description of what makes a golf course great
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2014, 01:07:16 PM »
David,

are you going native working in Germany? what's this wanting lists for everything  ;)

Frank Giordano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A definitive description of what makes a golf course great
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2014, 02:10:36 PM »
David Davis
Full Member
***

Re: A definitive description of what makes a golf course great
« Reply #52 on: Today at 01:37:35 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote
I'm a little disappointed in this thread. Perhaps it just is an impossible question however I can't help but to feel that we could do much better than this.

David,

Your desire for some objective criteria is understandable, laudable, and, in the way you wish to pursue it, impossible.  

As previous threads on objectivity and subjectivity in course evaluations have shown, many of the people you'd most like to contribute their lists are almost adamantly insistent that all evaluation is purely subjective.  I'm with you in believing otherwise; and we, and those like us who know that objective bases are available, even though they ultimately began as subjective judgments, can be encouraged that some of the most prominent and thoughtful of the "original" golden agers -- CBM and Dr. Mac and Tilly among them -- not only thought your quest possible, but they made serious efforts at listing criteria.

Because there are so many individual traits or characteristics of the great courses that  can be pinpointed, making a list of them would be never-ending; the list itself might be infinite, if all the subjective viewpoints about characteristics were compiled.  That's the road to madness.

In another thread, I suggested that we make our quest for objective bases by examining the established characteristics of what constitutes great visual art.  Some will argue that even those bases, which have descended to us through centuries of thoughtful art evaluation, were originally subjective.  That's true, but if we're to judge intelligently and communicate our judgments, we need a language for doing so, one that has some authority and acceptability by those who really wish to communicate.  So, if we look at the characteristics of great visual art, as they've evolved into principles for art criticism, we have the following list.  

1 Movement
2 Unity
3 Harmony
4 Variety
5 Balance
6 Contrast
7 Proportion
8 Pattern and rhythm

My sense is that if we examine courses in terms of these principles, rather than in a quest to find a complete list of traits, we are likely to have more productive discussions on this site and, more importantly, better golf course criticism  generally.

Thus, instead of listing all the ways a golf course exhibits variety -- long holes and short holes, doglegs left and right, sand and grass and cross bunkers, uphill and downhill and sidehill fairways, small and medium and large and flat and undulant greens, ponds and streams and lakes and babbling brooks and no water at all, etc.,  ad infinitum, if we can agree that a course  exhibits great variety in many of its particular characteristics, we'll be on the road to an objective assessment of its greatness as a work of architecture.  Then, if we can agree that the course demonstrates that it embodies the other principles to a large degree, we can be confident that we are approaching a more thorough evaluation of the course's merits as a work of art.

That is, our focus should be, first, on assessing the course in terms of the principles of art.  Then, knowing that art manifests itself in an infinite variety of individual traits, we can judge the particular course's traits in terms of their representing artistic principles.

Another question might well arise -- does a beautiful work of golf course architecture represent, in itself, a great golf course -- but that's a subject for another thread.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A definitive description of what makes a golf course great
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2014, 04:01:36 PM »
Frank,

Thanks for that detailed response. That's quite an interesting way of looking at it. I'm not sure I'm completely with you in terms of how you would assess a courses greatness based on the principles you mentioned.

1 Movement
2 Unity
3 Harmony
4 Variety
5 Balance
6 Contrast
7 Proportion
8 Pattern and rhythm

Do you think you could give an example of how you see that happening? Maybe I'm asking too much here. I'd consider myself a below average lover of the arts I suppose, if I'm basing my level of passion from the way you speak of them. Not once have I stood in front of the Mona Lisa or the Night Watch and judged it for any of the above. I'm just not trained or perhaps cultured enough with that level of understanding and appreciation. I just look and try to see how it makes me feel, what emotions if any it brings out in me and move on to the next one feeling like I need to get moving if I want to take in the entire museum before lunch time.

While it sounds very poetic to suggest that the great courses would have an infinite list of characteristics I struggle to see how that could be feasible.


Frank P, nothing doing about lists, I have no desire to put everything in lists. Only a desire to enrich understanding and bring subjectivity to a minimum. It's just a bit frustrating to read and hear all these statements, even use them myself that are said as factual information but have no substance or way to prove.

If I told you that Hogedijk was a great course because they did incredible things with that flat piece of freeway polder they were given, that it has amazing flow, variety and great usage of the natural landscape tying in the water strategically on many holes. That it was it tests every aspect of your game and had strategic bunkering. I guess you can't argue with that other than to say no it's a piece of shit and I wouldn't be caught dead playing there. Which of course would be subjective. I don't love the fact that discussions about golf courses cannot be won or lost due to subjectivity. We all know it's no good but nobody can prove it objectively. That's just pure frustrating if that's are standpoint.

Ulrich, I like the fact that you take a side, have a strong opinion and don't ride the fence with your answers. I might not agree with you entirely but I can't say I have a better solution at this moment. I know you are a statistical anomaly, one I will always remember as the only guy that can re-examine in a spreadsheet every shot he's ever made (probably even including practice swings, though I didn't dare to ask you.)

Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A definitive description of what makes a golf course great
« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2014, 04:19:56 PM »
David, I think it is the wrong idea to try to bring subjectivity to a minimum. It is what makes us human and ultimately provides the fun in life (and golf). Subjectivity is individualism and that is good.

What I believe we should bring to a minimum when judging golf courses and communicating the results to others is arbitrariness. So pick your poison and stick to it!

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Frank Giordano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A definitive description of what makes a golf course great
« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2014, 06:47:34 PM »
 Subjectivity is individualism and that is good.

Ulrich,

May I suggest that individuality is good, but that subjectivity keeps us from achieving our individuality and our human potential.  To know only what one knows, or to like only what one's taste prefers, keeps us from opening ourselves up to what others like and prefer, and therefore robs us of the opportunities to learn more than we know, or like more than we like.  It keeps us at odds with others, some of whom may know more than we know, who may understand better than we do, and whose judgments and taste, when combined with our own limited capacities, can  expand our knowledge, feelings, instincts, all of which constitute our potential humanity.

An extreme example: a student in one of my poetry classes came to me one day after class, chagrined because he felt I was trying to convert him from his native religion.  I told him I did not share the religion of the poet we were studying at the time and that the student clearly didn't know what my religion, in fact, was.  Then I suggested that throughout the university he was likely to encounter ideas that differed from the ones he learned in his own home and church and town.  If he was going to refuse to consider such novel ideas -- without having to adopt them as his own --  he'd probably be better off returning to his home and saving the expense of tuition, as a university was precisely the place to encounter new and different ideas and experiences than the one's your young life has already provided for you.  An unkind reply on my part would have been something to the effect that if you wish to remain as ignorant as you were when you got here, just go home and save the money and anxiety the university is likely to cause you.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A definitive description of what makes a golf course great
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2014, 07:35:07 PM »
Frank,

an interesting point you make there. Although I believe that we define subjectivity a bit differently. For me it is orthogonal to openness and tolerance. Or to use your example: if said poetry student were to realise his error and henceforth practised tolerance of and curiosity towards novel ideas, then he would still act subjectively. His horizon might be wider, but it would still be his individual horizon. The last time someone claimed with any success that there is an objective horizon (canon), that is valid for everyone, things went horribly wrong.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Frank Giordano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A definitive description of what makes a golf course great
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2014, 08:24:13 PM »
Quote from Ulrich:  For me it [ subjectivity ] is orthogonal to openness and tolerance.

Ulrich,

Sounds like a pretty subjective interpretation of "subjectivity" to me!  Perhaps a more objective sense of the word's meaning will close the gap between you and David.

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