[Pete Lavallee]

I always thought that if a match was played from different tees, the slope system would fairly handicap the players by plugging their indexes in and getting the appropriate course handicap for the tee they are playing. This however is wrong and unless an adjustment is made the player on the shorter set will almost always win. Being that a lot of us will ber teeing it forward at Pat's request we should be aware of what needs to occur to have an equitable match with those who refuse to move forward! Here is a link to an interesting article explaining why and what should be doone to correct the problem:

http://editiondigital.net/publication/?i=183018

[David_Tepper]

"This however is wrong and unless an adjustment is made the player on the shorter set will almost always win."

Pete L. -

Out of curiosity, what is your basis for making that statement?

DT

[Pete Lavallee]

From the article, the two players each have the same index and wish to play different tees. The player playing the longer set of tees is held to the higher "standard" of matching the course rating which is obviously higher than the one his opponent is using.

[Brent Hutto]

You have to give the player on the longer set of tees more strokes. He opponent is playing a shorter course.

Imagine two scratch players in a match. One of them plays the course at 7,000 yards and one at 6,000 yards. No way it's a fair match to say "Hey, we're both scratch. Teeing off 50 yards forward on every hole isn't an advantage. We just play straight up".

[Chris Cupit]

The USGA Handicap System book spells out in detail why the adjustments must be made--it is a source of confusion for almost all my Members but makes complete sense when read completely.

I think the proper adjustments are descibed in sections 3-5 and 9-3 of the USGA Handicap System book.

Not trying to cause a fuss but I would suspect a very small number of golfers really understands the USGA handicap system or has bothered to read the book describing it in its entirety.  

[Garland Bayley]

The USGA Handicap System book spells out in detail why the adjustments must be made--it is a source of confusion for almost all my Members but makes complete sense when read completely.

I think the proper adjustments are descibed in sections 3-5 and 9-3 of the USGA Handicap System book.

Not trying to cause a fuss but I would suspect a very small number of golfers really understands the USGA handicap system or has bothered to read the book describing it in its entirety.  

Not only that, I suspect a quite high percentage of golfers don't understand that you can keep a handicap while playing match play, because they don't know how to handle concessions. Furthermore, there are those that get made as all get out when they concede a hole while still 20 feet from the cup and you write down what they are lying plus two for their score on the hole. I had one guy grab the scorecard from me and threaten to tear it up if I didn't agree to reduce his score on the hole by one.

[Carl Johnson]

The USGA Handicap System book spells out in detail why the adjustments must be made--it is a source of confusion for almost all my Members but makes complete sense when read completely.

I think the proper adjustments are descibed in sections 3-5 and 9-3 of the USGA Handicap System book.

Not trying to cause a fuss but I would suspect a very small number of golfers really understands the USGA handicap system or has bothered to read the book describing it in its entirety.  

Amen.  The details are in the Handicap book.  Forget the articles, hearsay, etc.  Read the frigg'n handicap book.  http://www.usga.org/rule-books/handicap-system-manual/handicap-manual/  Few golfers read the rule book, and even fewer read the handicap book.  I play regularly with a group of seniors at a private club.  Given our different ages, physical conditions and abilities, our matches only work if each player can choose his own tee.  One guy in particular, an alpha, figures he knows how to make the appropriate adjustments - but he is wrong.  He refuses to read the book.  Our pro can't even convince him he's wrong.   I've given up.  At least it's an opportunity for me to get out and play with others, even if the handicaps are screwed up, and for that I am very thankful.  (Regarding the handicap system in general, and posting match play scores for HC purposes, here's a winner, relating to GJ's comment.  For several years I was our club's rep to a Charlotte area interclub senior league board.  At one meeting someone raised a question about posting scores, and a great discussion ensued.  Finally, I said, "Why don't we just follow the procedures in the USGA Handicap manual?"  Everyone looked at me like I was crazy.)

[Michael Whitaker]

You have to give the player on the longer set of tees more strokes. He opponent is playing a shorter course.

Imagine two scratch players in a match. One of them plays the course at 7,000 yards and one at 6,000 yards. No way it's a fair match to say "Hey, we're both scratch. Teeing off 50 yards forward on every hole isn't an advantage. We just play straight up".

You can either give the player on the back tee more strokes or take away from the player on the front tee.

Here is the USGA's "simple" explanation:  http://www.usga.org/handicapping/publications/Competing-From-Different-Tees/

[David_Tepper]

Mike W. -

Thanks for that link. I learned something new today!

DT

[John Kavanaugh]

Do you understand that if only 100 golfers from each club in the country pays $20 each for a handicap you get $30,000,000. The USGA could care less if you understand it or if it works. Follow the money.

[Carl Johnson]

Do you understand that if only 100 golfers from each club in the country pays $20 each for a handicap you get $30,000,000. The USGA could care less if you understand it or if it works. Follow the money.

John, I'm not into how this goes and how the money flows.  Does the USGA collect the $20/per, or whatever, or does that go to local/regional golf associations that are separate from the USGA?  For example, here in N.C. the Carolinas Golf Association handles our handicaps, and my understanding is that a fee is paid to them (may be a misunderstanding on my part).  If so, do they in turn rebate it to the USGA?  I'd be interested to know where the money will take me, if I follow it.

[John Kavanaugh]

The USGA does not get the money. They have all they need. The money goes to the people that keep the USGA in power. It is a classic con.

[Mark Pearce]

I cannot for the life of me understand the point of a match played between players playing from different tees.  It's not far different from playing a "match" based on scores against par on different courses. 

[Carl Johnson]

The USGA does not get the money. They have all they need. The money goes to the people that keep the USGA in power. It is a classic con.

Thanks for the details.

[A.G._Crockett]

I cannot for the life of me understand the point of a match played between players playing from different tees.  It's not far different from playing a "match" based on scores against par on different courses. 

Mark,
Then you would not have to play such a match.  You could move up or back to where the other guy is, as the case may be, as could he. The handicapping guide explains how to make those adjustments.  The club could require it as a condition of the competition, or the players could handle it themselves on an individual match basis.

The only alternatives would be to have ALL handicaps established from the same set of tees, which isn't workable, or make all players play the tournament from the same set of tees, which will limit participation greatly no matter which direction you go with the tees.

The guy who won our match play tournament played the finals match from one set of tees back from his normal tees because he didn't want to give the strokes to his opponent. The manual was used to make the adjustment, and the match was played.  No problem.

[Brent Hutto]

Mark,

It's not like playing different courses at all. You are right there side by side playing exactly the same hole at the same time. The only difference is on the tee shot. Once both players have hit tee shots they are playing from different place on the hole anyway, regardless of which tees they started on.

It must be a UK hangup because honestly I've never heard anyone complain about different players using different tees except for yourself, Sean Arble and a couple other guys I've met when visiting England.

I used to play weekly with a guy at my club who teed off two sets of tees behind me and still was typically hitting second every hole. I found playing from at least roughly similar places in the fairway for our second shots to be far preferable to the alternative. If I had moved back to his tees then he'd still be hitting his second from around 150 yards on most Par 4's and I'd be hitting my second from back in the rough short of the fairway 250 yards out. That's no way to play an enjoyable match.

So we play our own tees and instead of the 15 strokes he would normally be giving me, we dock my handicap six or seven strokes (negociable, of course) and proceed. I can't see the problem.

[John Kavanaugh]

Now that I am older some of the men who I truly love are in their 70's.   It is a small sacrifice letting them move up a set so we can play that one last game. 

[Carl Johnson]

I cannot for the life of me understand the point of a match played between players playing from different tees.  It's not far different from playing a "match" based on scores against par on different courses.  

Mark, the USGA has developed the handicap system to provide an opportunity for players of different abilities to have fun competing against each other.  They've gone an extra step to suggest a fair way to adjust HCs when the players play from different tees.  All of this is optional.  A friend of mine, an excellent athlete in his day and very competitive, but who does not play golf, asks why anyone in his (or her) right mind would compete on a handicap basis.  My answer is, "No one has to."  It's an option.  You can play by yourself, or compete against others at scratch, or at whatever HC rules you devise for yourselves.  The USGA rules are just one option.  I think they're a good option - I've studied the background.  But, no, it's up to you and the guys or gals you play with to set up your matches anyway you want to.  If you don't think it's reasonable for folks who want to to compete from different tees, then fine.  Let them do it if they choose.  It works for me and my friends, but you don't have to accept the system.  Is it a perfect system?  Of course not, but I think someone already wrote a book about golf not being a game of perfect.

[Bill_McBride]

Now that I am older some of the men who I truly love are in their 70's.   It is a small sacrifice letting them move up a set so we can play that one last game.  

As I close in on 72, that would be me!  

Now that my son's tee shots are typically 30-40 yards past me, it's a lot more fun for me to play whites and him blues.  We hit our tee shots to about the same location now, but he still hits 2 or 3 clubs less than I do into the green.  

Our matches are a lot fun more this way.  I highly recommend this IF it works for you.  

[Bill Seitz]

You have to give the player on the longer set of tees more strokes. He opponent is playing a shorter course.

Imagine two scratch players in a match. One of them plays the course at 7,000 yards and one at 6,000 yards. No way it's a fair match to say "Hey, we're both scratch. Teeing off 50 yards forward on every hole isn't an advantage. We just play straight up".

You can either give the player on the back tee more strokes or take away from the player on the front tee.

Here is the USGA's "simple" explanation:  http://www.usga.org/handicapping/publications/Competing-From-Different-Tees/

Bookmarking this link for my next match with Jud Tigerman.

[Sean_A]

It must be a UK hangup because honestly I've never heard anyone complain about different players using different tees except for yourself, Sean Arble and a couple other guys I've met when visiting England.

Huh?  If we are just out for funsies or whatever, I don't care which tees you pay from.  Sure, I am keen for all to play from the same tee because of the social element of the game, but if some folks want to skip that aspect, its not an issue for me.  I am usually happy to move forward, well I am happier to move forward than back.  This thread is about a group of guys playing together with different ambitions.  I personally can't get my head around a true comp being mixed tees.  A proper comp is a proper comp and the playing conditions should be as close as possible for all.  All devaitions from this reduce the validity of the comp.  But lets face it, so far as I am concerned, most club comps or whatever are just ways to enjoy oneself so with that in mind, by all means, play from where you like. I don't see much point in making a guy play from a tee when he knows failure is a high probability.  I say, don't be stupid, walk forward. Just as when I suspend my beliefs for entertainment when attending the cinema, so it is true on the course.  I don't much care about being compensated for the "transgression" unless I was playing for more money than I feel comfortable with.  For instance, I wouldn't often get into a skins game for $50 when there is teeing ground sheenanigans or big differences in handicaps. That is because I object to anybody having an advantage when a decent sum of money is on the line - which is the case if there are 20 guys piling in $50 each.  If its $5 in, I could care less unless its the same few guys winning each week.  Its all relative Brent, its just that I don't trust to formulas when it comes to golf and the USGA handicap system is testament to how screwy things can become.  

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

Sean,

Just to be clear, I'm with you on competitions. If it's a stroke-play (or Stableford or whatever) event with a "field" of players I do not believe it's valid competition unless all players are on the same tees. No handicap adjustment can fix that.

I'm just talking about head to head games or 4BBB type things where the handicapping is a matter of negociation to arrive at a fair match anyway. Taking different tees into account when assigning strokes is pretty trivial in that context.

I've even played some matches where the player on the longer tees is only 4, 5, 6 better than the shorter-tee player and as a result you can just play the different tees in lieu of handicap strokes all together. If I'm playing off 15 against a 10-handicapper and he's willing to let me play the course 10% yards shorter I figure that's close enough to fair. And I really like not having to assign handicap strokes to particular holes and so forth.

[Kevin Lynch]

The USGA Handicap System book spells out in detail why the adjustments must be made--it is a source of confusion for almost all my Members but makes complete sense when read completely.

I think the proper adjustments are descibed in sections 3-5 and 9-3 of the USGA Handicap System book.

Not trying to cause a fuss but I would suspect a very small number of golfers really understands the USGA handicap system or has bothered to read the book describing it in its entirety.  

Amen.  The details are in the Handicap book.  Forget the articles, hearsay, etc.  Read the frigg'n handicap book.  http://www.usga.org/rule-books/handicap-system-manual/handicap-manual/  Few golfers read the rule book, and even fewer read the handicap book.  I play regularly with a group of seniors at a private club.  Given our different ages, physical conditions and abilities, our matches only work if each player can choose his own tee.  One guy in particular, an alpha, figures he knows how to make the appropriate adjustments - but he is wrong.  He refuses to read the book.  Our pro can't even convince him he's wrong.   I've given up.  At least it's an opportunity for me to get out and play with others, even if the handicaps are screwed up, and for that I am very thankful.  (Regarding the handicap system in general, and posting match play scores for HC purposes, here's a winner, relating to GJ's comment.  For several years I was our club's rep to a Charlotte area interclub senior league board.  At one meeting someone raised a question about posting scores, and a great discussion ensued.  Finally, I said, "Why don't we just follow the procedures in the USGA Handicap manual?"  Everyone looked at me like I was crazy.)

When I joined my first club, I was told that they used the USGA Handicap System.  Not wanting to seem like an uninformed idiot, I downloaded the USGA Handicap Manual and read it from cover-to-cover.  I was fascinated by all the considerations that went into it, from T-Scores, to different tee adjustments, all the way to HC Committee adjustments.   After being in the club for 10 years, I realized that I was probably the only member in the club (other than the HC Chairman) who ever had been bothered to read the manual.  When I served on the Board, I used almost the exact same quote as Carl many times to end wild speculation.

My OCD about the manual finally paid dividends after playing a round with one of our most vocal members, complaining about his index. He insisted it had to be wrong. After the round, I took him into the locker room, pulled his score history and manually recalculated his index for him on a piece of paper (dividing by 113 without a calculator can be a pain).  But, after 15 minutes of work, we never heard another gripe about handicaps from this man (or the other members who witnessed the exercise).

[Ken Moum]

Sean,

Just to be clear, I'm with you on competitions. If it's a stroke-play (or Stableford or whatever) event with a "field" of players I do not believe it's valid competition unless all players are on the same tees. No handicap adjustment can fix that.

Brent, I think you and I agree on most things re. choosing tees and what's fun on golf, but if you really believe the statement I bolded above, then you must think the entire US handicap system is broken.  Because the handicap adjustment between tees is what the whole thing is based on.

The adjustment for matches is entirely based on the difference between course ratings, and that is the bedrock on which GHIN is based.  Slope is another matter.

FWIW, I do think the GHIN system is broken, almost beyond repair, but it's not really related to the concepts behind the system.  My issues are execution of the course rating and slope by rating teams, and the assumption that people play the same in casual and competitive rounds.

K

[Brent Hutto]

Ken,

There's no way the adjustment procedure for different lengths/tees can create a valid, large-field, stroke-play tournament if each golfer gets to choose his own tees. The adjustment only has differences in course (and possibly slope) rating to work with. That may or may not be accurate on average but it is demonstrably untrue for an individual player.

My own index went down three strokes simply by moving up one set of tees. I know other members at my club whose index did not change or even went up a tiny fraction when making exactly the same move. For a severely distance-challenged straight hitter (myself) the reduction in course rating can't come close to capturing how much easier the course plays from 500-600 yards shorter. For a slightly longer but much wilder hitter, scores don't actually go down much at all when moving up well inside 6,000 yards because they're just chipping out of the woods from closer to the hole and they weren't suffering from greens unreachable in regulation.

If my club played the Club Championship or what have you with the player being able to choose his tees, I would simply play a dozen or so rounds before the tournament from the way back (6,700 yard) tees and let me index skyrocket. Then move up two sets of tees to 5,700 yards and be virtually guaranteed of a net score well under par. Trivial to game the system.

We do have players on different tees, depending on age. But the groups playing each set of tees are in separate flights. You're assuming that 20 rounds played from the 5,000 or 5,700 or 6,250 or 6,700 or 7,000+ yard tees will result in exactly the same handicap INDEX and come tournament time the index/rating/slope arithmetic will ensure a fair competition. That is an impossibility for any handicapping system, much moreso for the actual system we're stuck with.

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