Sand Valley first , second , and third course architects, fourth?

[RJ_Daley]

If we were rolling back the clock 20 years in the golf development life of Mr Keiser, and he were just contemplating his grand opus based on his passion for golf, I could buy into the idea that he was going o approach this 1300 acres with the idea of whatever it takes to find the best course possible on the land track, similar to the legend of Sand Hills with the constellation map of potential routing corridors and selecting the best of the best for the final 18 product.  But, as noted above, Mr. Keiser has been there and done that with Bandon Resorts and his sponsorship of the already conceived course plan by the time he got into it at Cabot Links.  He goes back to Lost Dunes and the relationship with all these architects is long standing.  I have to believe that everything being put out for public consumption is the purposeful intention of a slow rolled out marketing plan to keep the interest level of the golf geek world high.

Wouldn't it be logical that the tract where the C&C course is to 'fit' would be in a quadrant that doesn't preclude the follow-on of more courses to have logical corridors to also be routed, and not that the first architects would get 'the best' possible land as first choice, like the Sand Hills GC was routed? 

I had expressed some skepticism from the beginning about the long run viabilitiy of Adams County as strictly a proposition of whether it can sustain the intrepid golf geek market high dollar resort, also considering the short season.  No question the land tract is special.  But, once you cross that bridge of deciding it is a go, you have to sell it and flog it to give it the best opportunity for economic success.  The commitment is made, and you MUST SELL it or perish, it seems to me.  So, in my mind, I am not going to be surprised or put off by any and all clever means to keep the interest high, and the golf writers salivating to get a scoop on the latest developments of the project. 

It remains my belief that Doak should have led off, due to key personnel of his crew having Wisconsin ties, and the lead status he has in the reputation of the course products at Bandon.  Not a darn thing wrong with C&C, just a strategic choice in my view.  If I were a marketing director, I just think I could generate more interest as a back story with a Doak course leading off.  And, I fully understand that Crenshaw's name brings a lot to the picture where Doak doesn't have the world famous golfer as partner for that aspect of name recognition. 

Hell, it I were driving this bus, and I were Doak, for this project, I'd be schmoozing Steve Stricker to be a player consultant for this project and ask Keiser to pay Stricker off with the promise of all the hunting rights he cares to exercise on this prime hunting territory in Adams County. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Don,

That's a pretty jaded view even by our standards  . 

I agree with Mike Young that it doesn't seem jaded by Don is the new store at the mall.

If you discover that you are content, can you continue being so?

You cannot repeat the spontaneity of Oregon. There is no way to replicate the minor and major actors, the level of experience nor the impromptu changes in direction.

Sand Valley has to be more organized in its execution, given the work done in Oregon, Tasmania and Canada.

[BCowan]

If we were rolling back the clock 20 years in the golf development life of Mr Keiser, and he were just contemplating his grand opus based on his passion for golf, I could buy into the idea that he was going o approach this 1300 acres with the idea of whatever it takes to find the best course possible on the land track, similar to the legend of Sand Hills with the constellation map of potential routing corridors and selecting the best of the best for the final 18 product.  But, as noted above, Mr. Keiser has been there and done that with Bandon Resorts and his sponsorship of the already conceived course plan by the time he got into it at Cabot Links.  He goes back to Lost Dunes and the relationship with all these architects is long standing.  I have to believe that everything being put out for public consumption is the purposeful intention of a slow rolled out marketing plan to keep the interest level of the golf geek world high.

Wouldn't it be logical that the tract where the C&C course is to 'fit' would be in a quadrant that doesn't preclude the follow-on of more courses to have logical corridors to also be routed, and not that the first architects would get 'the best' possible land as first choice, like the Sand Hills GC was routed? 

I had expressed some skepticism from the beginning about the long run viabilitiy of Adams County as strictly a proposition of whether it can sustain the intrepid golf geek market high dollar resort, also considering the short season.  No question the land tract is special.  But, once you cross that bridge of deciding it is a go, you have to sell it and flog it to give it the best opportunity for economic success.  The commitment is made, and you MUST SELL it or perish, it seems to me.  So, in my mind, I am not going to be surprised or put off by any and all clever means to keep the interest high, and the golf writers salivating to get a scoop on the latest developments of the project. 

It remains my belief that Doak should have led off, due to key personnel of his crew having Wisconsin ties, and the lead status he has in the reputation of the course products at Bandon.  Not a darn thing wrong with C&C, just a strategic choice in my view.  If I were a marketing director, I just think I could generate more interest as a back story with a Doak course leading off.  And, I fully understand that Crenshaw's name brings a lot to the picture where Doak doesn't have the world famous golfer as partner for that aspect of name recognition. 

Hell, it I were driving this bus, and I were Doak, for this project, I'd be schmoozing Steve Stricker to be a player consultant for this project and ask Keiser to pay Stricker off with the promise of all the hunting rights he cares to exercise on this prime hunting territory in Adams County. 

I had expressed some skepticism from the beginning about the long run viabilitiy of Adams County as strictly a proposition of whether it can sustain the intrepid golf geek market high dollar resort, also considering the short season.  No question the land tract is special.  But, once you cross that bridge of deciding it is a go, you have to sell it and flog it to give it the best opportunity for economic success.  The commitment is made, and you MUST SELL it or perish, it seems to me.  So, in my mind, I am not going to be surprised or put off by any and all clever means to keep the interest high, and the golf writers salivating to get a scoop on the latest developments of the project. 

Why is Adams County a bad location?  It is in driving distance of 3 or 4 big cities?  The land I am sure is terrific.  Short season is a plus, probably 100 perfect days and x amount of okay days for golf.  They are closed 5 or 6 months a year and aren't open losing money like private clubs do.  I bet the green fees will be in the $150 range.  With people now a days playing golf less times a year, there will be a small portion of people leaving there clubs and prob making 2-3 visits to SV a year.  I think he will put a dent into the America's Club too.  Hopefully he will go with the new Bent variates and not go with Fescue for the fairways.  I think this is his least risky venture of all, seems like a no brainer.  It is hard to use words like Risky when you have those deep pockets. 

[BHoover]

Ben, I'm curious why you prefer Bent grass over fescue fairways? The few times I've played fescue, I would say it is far superior as a playing surface. If Sand Valley can handle fescue, I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be used. Why do you disagree?

As a soon to be resident of Minnesota, I can't wait for Sand Valley to open. It will be much easier to get their than to make the trip to Bandon or Cape Breton (not to say that I don't want to see those places).

[BCowan]

Ben, I'm curious why you prefer Bent grass over fescue fairways? The few times I've played fescue, I would say it is far superior as a playing surface. If Sand Valley can handle fescue, I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be used. Why do you disagree?

As a soon to be resident of Minnesota, I can't wait for Sand Valley to open. It will be much easier to get their than to make the trip to Bandon or Cape Breton (not to say that I don't want to see those places).

Brian,

   I believe MK said that there would be carts at SV.  Cart traffic kills fescue.  Have you played any of the new Bents on Sand based fairways?  We talk about rolling the ball back, does 60 yards of roll vs 40 yards of roll matter, when you don't have to worry about losing your fairways?  Also Poa creeps in Fescue when cart traffic picks up. 

[BHoover]

Ben, I'm curious why you prefer Bent grass over fescue fairways? The few times I've played fescue, I would say it is far superior as a playing surface. If Sand Valley can handle fescue, I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be used. Why do you disagree?

As a soon to be resident of Minnesota, I can't wait for Sand Valley to open. It will be much easier to get their than to make the trip to Bandon or Cape Breton (not to say that I don't want to see those places).

Brian,

   I believe MK said that there would be carts at SV.  Cart traffic kills fescue.  Have you played any of the new Bents on Sand based fairways?  We talk about rolling the ball back, does 60 yards of roll vs 40 yards of roll matter, when you don't have to worry about losing your fairways?  Also Poa creeps in Fescue when cart traffic picks up. 

I wasn't aware that Sand Valley would have carts, but to be honest I haven't read mucb abbout the project. Are there any examples of courses that effectively manage cart traffic and fescue? I suppose private clubs can do it because they tend to have less play than resort courses (Kingsley comes to mind). Regardless,  it's not my course or my decision, so I'll leave it up to Mr. Keiser and his team; same with his choice of architect (s) for his course (s).

[Phil McDade]

Guys:

See post #57 of this thread; Keiser has indicated it will be fescue, which I then assume means no or limited cart traffic and thus a healthy caddie program.

Ben -- the traffic for Sand Valley will have to be nearly entirely out-of-town day-trippers/overnighters; Adams County remains one of the poorest counties in Wisconsin, and unlike Erin Hills (located in and near a pretty prosperous section of Wisconsin), $150 for a round of golf is a TON of money for most locals. You make a good point about the constrained nature of the season, which may even help w/ expenses, and we'll see if Sand Valley can take away market share from the likes of the Kohler courses, Erin Hills, even nearby Lake Arrowhead and the Lawsonia courses. But I don't see the market for golf growing in Wisconsin; it may be shifting, among the high-end courses themselves and from low-end courses to high-end courses. Bjt the overall economy in Wisconsin is still puttering along, and SValley is going to require a lot of traffic from the Twin Cities and Chicago to maintain itself. I think a bit of skepticism of this project as a business model -- not as a worthy site for some really good architecture -- is still warranted.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

It may take a while to be fully developed, but aside from the lack of lake views (aren't there some river views?), if this project is managed with some semblance of fiscal responsibility I don't see how it won't eventually be a big success with 3 or more courses.  Thousands (tens of thousands?) of guys and gals from Chicago, Milwaukee and the Twin Cities have been to Bandon and GB&I and have experienced what playing the game on sand is like and will be chomping at the bit for a similar public venue within driving range and without a big ticket plane fare, a full day of travel each way, a passport, jetlag (and 35 mph winds) involved.  All they have to do is deliver the goods in terms of course quality (and ratings and PR) and amenities IMO.  I can even imagine some of the locals ponying up once a year for a special occasion (birthday, bachelor party etc.).  And this doesn't even include the traveling bedpost-notcher crowd if they end up with a couple of top 50 courses, which doesn't seem like a huge stretch given MK's track record and the early reports of the quality of the land.  The price point may in fact end up looking very attractive relative to the American Club and Erin Hills depending on one's predilections.  Hell, there's hundreds of guys right here who are checking plane fares to the 2017 Midwest Mashie as we speak...  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,
I don't think Mk is looking for inspired vision; not for a second.

He has already built the "magic kingdom" of golf at Bandon and he is trying to build something like that in the Midwest.

Sand Valley feels planned out, like there is a perfect blueprint in place. That, to most in business probably feels right, to me, I want some improvisation.

I don't think Bandon was a perfectly planned golf resort. I think there was some "on the fly" decision making.

With Sand Valley, MK is showing us what a perfectly planned out golf resort is supposed to be.

If you are given two cups of coffee and one is Starbucks and one is McDonalds, do you think everyone given the taste test will get it right?

Sand Valley will be great, we've all already decided it will be great, and we can't be wrong.

Don,

We aren't so far apart.  Yes, I believe MK has a better handle on planning big projects now.  I also happen to think:

1. He is slightly worried that no ocean will be a hindrance. A mind blowing concept might be, in his mind, necessary to distinguish this from his oceanfront properties.

2. He knows past success doesn't guarantee future success.

3. He is just idealistic enough to hope beyond hope that he sees something totally different to blow him away.  I would bet you and I (and every other architect has that balance of learned practicality vs. still some wonder at the possibility of something new, as in your last OP!)

While I am not really putting my thinking hat on, I wonder just how different the ideas might be.  Obviously, the model is PV up there.  Just how different will each of these guys propose on theme?

Maybe one will propose all double greens or something.....how about one envisioning how Desmond Muirhead (or other equally unlikely candidate for the work) would have done PV, sort of a fantasy vision course?  Maybe putt-putt?

Like you, I think it may be part a fishing expedition, but I do think he holds out 1% hope for something really great and different....and at least better than the two ideas I threw out above, LOL>

[BCowan]

Guys:

See post #57 of this thread; Keiser has indicated it will be fescue, which I then assume means no or limited cart traffic and thus a healthy caddie program.

Ben -- the traffic for Sand Valley will have to be nearly entirely out-of-town day-trippers/overnighters; Adams County remains one of the poorest counties in Wisconsin, and unlike Erin Hills (located in and near a pretty prosperous section of Wisconsin), $150 for a round of golf is a TON of money for most locals. You make a good point about the constrained nature of the season, which may even help w/ expenses, and we'll see if Sand Valley can take away market share from the likes of the Kohler courses, Erin Hills, even nearby Lake Arrowhead and the Lawsonia courses. But I don't see the market for golf growing in Wisconsin; it may be shifting, among the high-end courses themselves and from low-end courses to high-end courses. Bjt the overall economy in Wisconsin is still puttering along, and SValley is going to require a lot of traffic from the Twin Cities and Chicago to maintain itself. I think a bit of skepticism of this project as a business model -- not as a worthy site for some really good architecture -- is still warranted.

Phil,

    Benton Harbor in Michigan is a very depressed area.  JN track is doing okay i think.  Locals aren't going to be playing the course, maybe May/oct.  Forrest Dunes is in the middle of no-where.  SV has a 3 big cities to draw from.  The only stupid thing that MK is doing is going with fescue.  You can have a walking only track if it's located next to an Ocean/great lake, top 100, or is hosting a major.  He is going to help Lawsonia get spill over.  People now don't have to mortgage their house to play Kohler.  He can always have a cart fee for riders.  The new bent grasses require 30% less water.  GCA guys aren't the golf course market.  I would love to sit and ask Bandon resort players if they can tell me difference between  strategic and penal architecture.  The advantage you have in Wisconsin over Michigan is you have great tracks that are routed for walking.  I would bet 95% of Forrest Dunes play is carts.  The difference is MK has deep pockets and great reputation.  If left to the golfers choice at SV, 70% riding, 30% walking would be my guess for a slam dunk, no worries success.  

[RJ_Daley]

I can't remember if we have talked about the other newly renovated golf course in the area, Sentry World.  Jay Blasi has done a collaboration with his former full time employer, RTJjr to get the new SW open next spring.  Bruce Charlton, head associate with RTJjf and with the original project continues to refer to it as "the ANGC of the Northland".  Welll, that is a mighty stretch.  But I wouldn't discount SW as a big factor in the competitive market.  Or, it might be on many weekender's dance card for one of multiple rounds on the lang weekend golf trip to the area.  Local Wisconsin resident Jay Blasi of Chambers Bay experience with RTJjr will draw cheesehead homer interest, IMO.  SW had a soft opening event in Sept with a big dollar charity outting, and a raters day.  Anyone know how that turned out?

I'm sure that on turf selection, C&C top  turf wizards and consultants Peterson and Hegland will have big input on that decision.  They will get it right, however it goes.  Hegland has revitalized SHGC FW and foregreens and surrounds to a huge extent.  Why wouldn't they tap Hegland, a Wisconsin native for some wise counsel, given their close working relationship on projects at SHGC?

But, if I know the Wisconsin golfer market at all, I am skeptical that at a price point north of 150 dollar rounds, with a lower competitive price out of SW, and much lower at Lake Arrowhead, and Lawsonia, Northern Bay and the other likely day trip courses from Madison, Miilwaukee and GB, not to mention Stevens Point and Wausau, Sand Valley is going to have to come up with something of a come-on regional rate, IMO.

One comparable that may define the tastes of the Wisconsin golfer who likes to day trip, is that the percentage of play of these sort of players is to pick Lawsonia Woodlands more often as a choice if playing only one of the courses, than the Langford classic.  They are more likely to say, let's go play "the ANGC of the Northland" for 100 a round, than the Pine Valley of the north, at greater price than that.  Or they will play it one and done and go to the more economic value on successive golf day trips. 

Just my opinion, of course.

[Jim Tang]

Really, the success of Sand Valley won't be on how many people go and see it.  Success will depend on how many people see it and then choose to go back.

I imagine they will offer local residents a price break while charging everyone else a premium.  I believe they do this at Bandon, correct?

[Phil McDade]

Really, the success of Sand Valley won't be on how many people go and see it.  Success will depend on how many people see it and then choose to go back.

I imagine they will offer local residents a price break while charging everyone else a premium.  I believe they do this at Bandon, correct?

Jim:

The comparison to Bandon is somewhat apt -- the Coos Bay economy wasn't exactly booming when Keiser came along, and he's now building courses on land no longer needed for timber/paper mill purposes because that industry has gone south. RJ makes a very good point above about Sentry World -- which, before Kohler came along, really was the destination course in Wisconsin; I've heard very good things about the renovation work there, which would make for even more competition for SValley.

Keiser wanted to re-create the British links experience for American golfers without having to cross the Atlantic; he's done pretty well in that regard at Bandon. Now he wants to re-create Pine Valley, or make a larger, public model of his beloved Dunes Club in Michigan. That's a pretty discerning golf market to go after -- as I've said, disproportionately represented here on GCA, and maybe it's out there. But, he's chosen a market (Wisconsin) already saturated with a lot of high-end golfing options.

[BCowan]

Really, the success of Sand Valley won't be on how many people go and see it.  Success will depend on how many people see it and then choose to go back.

I imagine they will offer local residents a price break while charging everyone else a premium.  I believe they do this at Bandon, correct?

Jim:

The comparison to Bandon is somewhat apt -- the Coos Bay economy wasn't exactly booming when Keiser came along, and he's now building courses on land no longer needed for timber/paper mill purposes because that industry has gone south. RJ makes a very good point above about Sentry World -- which, before Kohler came along, really was the destination course in Wisconsin; I've heard very good things about the renovation work there, which would make for even more competition for SValley.

Keiser wanted to re-create the British links experience for American golfers without having to cross the Atlantic; he's done pretty well in that regard at Bandon. Now he wants to re-create Pine Valley, or make a larger, public model of his beloved Dunes Club in Michigan. That's a pretty discerning golf market to go after -- as I've said, disproportionately represented here on GCA, and maybe it's out there. But, he's chosen a market (Wisconsin) already saturated with a lot of high-end golfing options.

Phil,

    Don't you think 3-5 courses at SV will be the Pinehurst of the Midwest?  My thinking is (having not played them) that Erin Hills and Whistling straights are going to appeal more to the under 50 crowd for repeat play.  I imagine SV will be more user friendly for the average retail golfer 50-65 years old.  At a price point of $100-150(weekends) he is going to put a dent in Kholer repeat play for above age group imo just looking at it from afar.  WS is an expensive experience that many will do once, why do it over when you can go to outstanding courses for less that would be much more playable?  Expecting people to walk (when its not hosting a major or ocean side course) is not smart.  MK has morning drive PR all the time, does average Chicagoian or twin cities core golfer know about Sentry World?  Re creating PV for the public is genius, i doubt they are going for as demanding 2nd shots.  lots of width, visuals, and great maint. is what the avg golf wants imo.  Limited carts and fescue is the biggest risk he has, but he has very deep pockets and will be able to be successful.  Does PV have fescue fairways?

[K Rafkin]

There’s a lot of talk about how to make SV successful which incudes a wide range of analysis as to why Bandon is successful. 

In my opinion one of the most important, and rarely discussed, reasons why Bandon is successful is the general equality between the four courses.  This idea may sound a bit silly but try and stay with me here.  Each course at Bandon has established itself as a spectacular stand-alone course.  Yes, in the ratings system Pacific Dunes tends to shine more brightly then its brothers, but it doesn’t take the wonder out of the other courses.  People go to Bandon to play all four courses not just Pacific Dunes.  This mentality would not be possible if Bandon or Sand Valley hosted a major or even a tour event.  Just about every public major venue provides the example of how this is true.  People go to Pinehurst to play #2, and just so happen to play a few other courses.  People go to Kohler to play Straights and just end up playing the other courses.  People flock to Kiawah  to play the ocean course, and might just find themselves on the other courses.  When a single course hosts a major all other courses on the property get overshadowed.  Everyone who visits comes for to tackle one specific course.  People don’t get to make up their minds about which course is best, because like sheep they cant find themselves disagreeing with the flawed rating system in place.  When one course gets hyped up as a Major venue or even tournament host the other courses simply drop in ranking and in respect. 

This is not an issue at Bandon.  Once again, people visit Bandon to play all four, not just one or the other.  When all the courses on property are given some sense of equal respect (which cannot happen with a major) golfers will flock to the destination of high-density quality courses (Bandon being the perfect example).  If Keiser can repeat this formula in Sand Valley he will find success regardless of what kind of grass the courses have or wither carts are available or not. 

Although I wasn’t able to articulate the concept to its full form, I believe it to be entirely accurate even if most golfers are unaware of the impact on their decisions. 

[BCowan]

There’s a lot of talk about how to make SV successful which incudes a wide range of analysis as to why Bandon is successful. 

In my opinion one of the most important, and rarely discussed, reasons why Bandon is successful is the general equality between the four courses.  This idea may sound a bit silly but try and stay with me here.  Each course at Bandon has established itself as a spectacular stand-alone course.  Yes, in the ratings system Pacific Dunes tends to shine more brightly then its brothers, but it doesn’t take the wonder out of the other courses.  People go to Bandon to play all four courses not just Pacific Dunes.  This mentality would not be possible if Bandon or Sand Valley hosted a major or even a tour event.  Just about every public major venue provides the example of how this is true.  People go to Pinehurst to play #2, and just so happen to play a few other courses.  People go to Kohler to play Straights and just end up playing the other courses.  People flock to Hilton Head to play Kiawah, and might just find themselves on the other courses.  When a single course hosts a major all other courses on the property get overshadowed.  Everyone who visits comes for to tackle one specific course.  People don’t get to make up their minds about which course is best, because like sheep they cant find themselves disagreeing with the flawed rating system in place.  When one course gets hyped up as a Major venue or even tournament host the other courses simply drop in ranking and in respect. 

This is not an issue at Bandon.  Once again, people visit Bandon to play all four, not just one or the other.  When all the courses on property are given some sense of equal respect (which cannot happen with a major) golfers will flock to the destination of high-density quality courses (Bandon being the perfect example).  If Keiser can repeat this formula in Sand Valley he will find success regardless of what kind of grass the courses have or wither carts are available or not. 

Although I wasn’t able to articulate the concept to its full form, I believe it to be entirely accurate even if most golfers are unaware of the impact on their decisions. 

''Expecting people to walk (when its not hosting a major or ocean side course) is not smart.''   this is what I said.  Do you honestly think the Bandon courses would be as highly reguarded if they were NOT on the Ocean?  Notice what I had in parentheses.  Arcadia bluffs and I believe the Kohler courses are very profitable.  Hence I said Ocean, great lakes, or courses that host majors.  Which SV isn't any of the 3.  What other top courses in Cali are there besides Pebble that people flock to go to on the West coast?  If you don't think people play Mid Pines and Pine Needles in addition to #2 and then I bet a good portion return to Pinehurst with PN and MP top on their list.  The river course at Kholer hosted 2 Woman's Opens.  All models are profitable.  Grass is very important, you might want to look at courses that went under with FESCUE grass.  Maint is a very important ingredient in being successful.  You don't think Dormie club is top on avg guys list next to #2?  My only hope is SV is $100-150 and I will probably visit it once a year from Michigan.  The question is why would you limit cart play, most people ride and the question is the land/course great enough for people who normally ride to walk?  I also never said Bandon needed a Major, it has an Ocean (people like Water). 

[Cliff Hamm]

On a west coast trip with my wife played Pacific Dunes.  Did not play the others.  There are some that don't go to Bandon to play all four courses.  Price is a factor as well as the walking factor. 

Walking only severely limits the number of seniors and those with disabilities that will play.  Yes, the disabled can get a cart, but a cart fee, naturally is required, as well as a caddy,  significantly raising the rate.  If the financials work without that demographic so be it, but it does limit, at least somewhat, revenue.

[K Rafkin]

There’s a lot of talk about how to make SV successful which incudes a wide range of analysis as to why Bandon is successful.  

In my opinion one of the most important, and rarely discussed, reasons why Bandon is successful is the general equality between the four courses.  This idea may sound a bit silly but try and stay with me here.  Each course at Bandon has established itself as a spectacular stand-alone course.  Yes, in the ratings system Pacific Dunes tends to shine more brightly then its brothers, but it doesn’t take the wonder out of the other courses.  People go to Bandon to play all four courses not just Pacific Dunes.  This mentality would not be possible if Bandon or Sand Valley hosted a major or even a tour event.  Just about every public major venue provides the example of how this is true.  People go to Pinehurst to play #2, and just so happen to play a few other courses.  People go to Kohler to play Straights and just end up playing the other courses.  People flock to Hilton Head to play Kiawah, and might just find themselves on the other courses.  When a single course hosts a major all other courses on the property get overshadowed.  Everyone who visits comes for to tackle one specific course.  People don’t get to make up their minds about which course is best, because like sheep they cant find themselves disagreeing with the flawed rating system in place.  When one course gets hyped up as a Major venue or even tournament host the other courses simply drop in ranking and in respect.  

This is not an issue at Bandon.  Once again, people visit Bandon to play all four, not just one or the other.  When all the courses on property are given some sense of equal respect (which cannot happen with a major) golfers will flock to the destination of high-density quality courses (Bandon being the perfect example).  If Keiser can repeat this formula in Sand Valley he will find success regardless of what kind of grass the courses have or wither carts are available or not.  

Although I wasn’t able to articulate the concept to its full form, I believe it to be entirely accurate even if most golfers are unaware of the impact on their decisions.  

''Expecting people to walk (when its not hosting a major or ocean side course) is not smart.''   this is what I said.  Do you honestly think the Bandon courses would be as highly reguarded if they were NOT on the Ocean?  Notice what I had in parentheses.  Arcadia bluffs and I believe the Kohler courses are very profitable.  Hence I said Ocean, great lakes, or courses that host majors.  Which SV isn't any of the 3.  What other top courses in Cali are there besides Pebble that people flock to go to on the West coast?  If you don't think people play Mid Pines and Pine Needles in addition to #2 and then I bet a good portion return to Pinehurst with PN and MP top on their list.  The river course at Kholer hosted 2 Woman's Opens.  All models are profitable.  Grass is very important, you might want to look at courses that went under with FESCUE grass.  Maint is a very important ingredient in being successful.  You don't think Dormie club is top on avg guys list next to #2?  My only hope is SV is $100-150 and I will probably visit it once a year from Michigan.  The question is why would you limit cart play, most people ride and the question is the land/course great enough for people who normally ride to walk?  I also never said Bandon needed a Major, it has an Ocean (people like Water).  

Im not entirely sure where i singled you out and wrote that everything you have said has been wrong.  It was a general thought that included a few concepts from the entire thread and was in no way directed at you specifically.  Im not going to argue the point of wether people like to view the ocean (or lakes) while they golf.  Has anyone ever argued against this?  Many of your points (which once again i wasnt really arguing with) i agree with.  So lets just leave it at that.

My main goal was to discuss a reason (in my mind a rather large one) behind Bandons success that isnt really talked about.  And I hope that MK can apply those same concepts to SV.

I also..... hope its priced in the 100-150 range to start off.  As the reputation grows the price should be increased incrementally (again just like bandon).   Or they can just price it at $900 a round and market it as the most expensive public course in the world (or that i can think of).  But really all the courses should be priced the same as to not direct favor to one or the other.

[Ronald Montesano]

You don't think Dormie club is top on avg guys list next to #2?

I would be stunned if Dormie is in the average guy's top ten after #2, if that's what you intimated. I would guess that a bunch of the post golden-age courses (Mid-South, Little River Farm, Tobacco Road, Talamore, Pinewild, Seven Lakes, et al) that are included in packages would rate higher. Next would come Southern Pines (for the cost) then Pine Needles and Mid Pines (because they heard that they're Ross courses but not as $$$ as The Deuce) and finally the courses at the resort that don't rhyme with Moo.

[BCowan]

K Rafkin,

   It's all good, I am sorry for my tone.  I hope the SV project is very successful which will stimulate more projects.  I think over $150 a round and walking restrictions will damper his momentum, but what do I know

[BCowan]

You don't think Dormie club is top on avg guys list next to #2?

I would be stunned if Dormie is in the average guy's top ten after #2, if that's what you intimated. I would guess that a bunch of the post golden-age courses (Mid-South, Little River Farm, Tobacco Road, Talamore, Pinewild, Seven Lakes, et al) that are included in packages would rate higher. Next would come Southern Pines (for the cost) then Pine Needles and Mid Pines (because they heard that they're Ross courses but not as $$$ as The Deuce) and finally the courses at the resort that don't rhyme with Moo.

Ron,

   I am playing Dormie in two weeks.  Many people can't stop talking about it.  Talamore over Dormie? I'd rather play the Southern Pines 4 hole course than Talamore.  Mid Pines has been in the mags with renovation but is expensive.

[Ronald Montesano]

BC,

I'm not saying what you or I would rather play. If you talk about "Average Joe," he's not playing Dormie. We've met kids from Canada on winter break down there and they haven't a clue about Dormie. If it's not part of a CVB package, it's not on the itinerary of the Average Joe.

[BHoover]

BC,

I'm not saying what you or I would rather play. If you talk about "Average Joe," he's not playing Dormie. We've met kids from Canada on winter break down there and they haven't a clue about Dormie. If it's not part of a CVB package, it's not on the itinerary of the Average Joe.

On my lone trip to Pinehurst,  I was invited with a group of "Average Joe" golfers, who probably play very occasionally but who make an annual trip to Pinehurst. I suggested Dormie as a possible course to play. The guys I was with had never heard of Dormie. Instead they wanted to play the Nicklaus and Palmer courses that they knew from prior trips. It was their trip, so who was I to complain. But architecture was the last thing on their minds.

If these guys ever go to Sand Valley,  it will be because there are multiple courses at decent prices, good food and cold beers. A decent looking cart girl or two wouldn't hurt either.

[BCowan]

With all due respect to the many excellent candidates, I dearly hope Sir Nuzzo gets one of the Sand Valley commissions before all is said and done.

+1 and or Rob Collins

[Phil McDade]

If these guys ever go to Sand Valley,  it will be because there are multiple courses at decent prices, good food and cold beers. A decent looking cart girl or two wouldn't hurt either.

I think the beer will be cold; Wisconsin's pretty good at that. But the pricing better be competitive, and the food darn good; there is not an interesting thing to do or see within a 50-mile radius of that place.