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Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2014, 09:13:26 PM »
For the inevitable GCA outing I hereby nominated the name "Cheese Curd Challenge"

Wouldn't Sausage Fest be more appropriate?

Point taken, but perhaps not sufficiently region specific.  How about Brat Boondoggle?

Sausage Fest has a double meaning.

Wisky Walkabout or Beer Brat Brassie.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2014, 04:44:26 PM »
This from the GC article:

Quote
...though sources suggest Keiser wants to see his Pacific Dunes designer rekindle a partnership with longtime associate Jim Urbina for the design, something Doak has resisted.

Who am I to second guess Mr. Keiser's selection and judgement.  Without a doubt C&C will do a fine job.  Some articles have gone so far as to say Keiser has been more selective of C&C because they don't design greens and surrounds quite to the slope contouring that TD tends to present.  Perhaps we don't know the inside story. 

But.... I wonder why Keiser didn't pick TD due to the fact that he has his current talented associate Brian Schneider on the RGD team.  This is not to say anything negative about Mr. Urbina.  We all know his talent as well.  But, Brian is a proven performer from his other significant input in some of RGDs production, since he is one of those that spends all the on-site time shaping and finishing several of their most acclaimed design.  The point that Schneider is a native hometown guy from that general area, would suggest he'd give it his all.  I sure hope he and the other RGD guys get the next course.  It is a no-brainer to me, because just that small tidbit of publicity that a hometown guy had significant input in the project would draw local and regional interest and pride to support the project, iMHO.

Along that same line of thinking, I hope they involve the OJ Noer turf station at the UW in Madison to provide turf species and cultivar decision making assistance.  We have a lot of talented folk related to golf design and turf science here in dairyland.   ;D 8)

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley second course
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2014, 12:04:51 PM »
That was quick...

"Sand Valley is progressing quite nicely. So nicely, Keiser has decided to start the second course there, and has narrowed his design candidates to Tom Doak ... or the team of Rod Whitman/Dave Axland. ... Doak appears to be the frontrunner."

See page 2:  http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=211327&p=4

Good luck, Tom.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2014, 07:36:45 AM »
Put them together...TDRWDA
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2014, 07:30:22 PM »
There might be a lot of architectural work to go around...this article says there could be up to five courses at Sand Valley.

http://archive.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140613/WRT01/306130297/Rome-prepares-five-course-golf-resort

The article seems to be down at the moment but I viewed it earler today.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2014, 11:23:14 PM »
Is this hipster Mike Keiser in the photo?

http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/article/20140613/WRT01/306130297/Rome-prepares-five-course-golf-resort

FYI: THIS LINK IS NO LONGER WORKING.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 04:28:41 AM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2014, 01:38:08 AM »
That's Mike's oldest son, Michael.  He has been involved in the Wisconsin project from the start.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2014, 09:42:59 AM »
An update from the Milwaukee paper, with Keiser hinting the first course may be fescue and thus walking only, and a 2017 opening:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/smooth-sailing-for-sand-valley-golf-project-b99315586z1-268208202.html

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2014, 05:56:37 PM »
Phil,

Thanks.  I'm glad he's leaning toward fescue.  The main point of differentiation IMO is that there's a dearth of sand based F&F golf with cool season grasses in the midwest, and the country for that matter.  There's no reason that far north not to do it, except of course for carts.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2014, 04:03:34 PM »
Phil,

Thanks.  I'm glad he's leaning toward fescue.  The main point of differentiation IMO is that there's a dearth of sand based F&F golf with cool season grasses in the midwest, and the country for that matter.  There's no reason that far north not to do it, except of course for carts.

Jud:

I greeted this with mixed emotions:

-- Glad, as you are too, that Keiser is leaning toward fescue, something rarely found in the Midwest. The land up there in Sand Valley would seem to be ideally suited for a fescue-based F&F golfing experience.

-- On the other hand, I do wonder if going to fescue -- and thus presumably a strict ban on carts -- may cut into what is already a truncated golf season for Keiser's venture, esp. relative to his two other well-known projects (Bandon and Cabot). This summer in Wisconsin has been as near-ideal as I can remember for golfng; we just had our first 90+ temps earlier this week, and now it's settled back into this summer's routine of mid-70s/low-80s and low humidity. But it's a small sample size! ;D It's unusual in these parts not to have a decent stretch of ugly high temps with high humidity. Granted, Sand Valley in July isn't Streamsong, but in a region where the normal golf season is typically late-April to early-October, you're looking at 20-25 weeks of dependable golf weather maximum. Can Keiser afford to cut out a week or two of that if his fescue course doesn't allow for the use of carts when the temps get scorching and folks don't want to haul their bags up and down those hills? Maybe he can...

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2014, 04:25:21 PM »
That's why they have caddies!  It is true that 36 will be tricky on hot summer days, but I'd assume that the 2nd course might be more cart-friendly.  Get one on the boards, rack up the rankings and PR and then roll out the red carpet...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2014, 06:46:15 PM »
I was on a trip past Sand Valley Monday.  I intended to get out and take some pix and see how the grubbing of pine and trash bush is going.  Unfortunately a pretty decent rain, and lightening storm was passing and I didn't have much time to wait it out.  So, the only thing I can report is that an entrance road has had some new heavy crushed rock has been placed presumably to move some heavy equipment in on the sandy road.  There was two cars parked at the entry, one with Virginia plates and one with Illinois plates, with that one containing some books in the back seat that were geography manuals apparently of the study of sand dune formations.  I wonder if Mr K himself might have been out on the land.  I hope they had a lightening proof umbrella or a shelter out there.  I walked in with umbrella about 1000 yards and saw no evidence of anyone on the site and no real evidence of work and equipment on site.  I wish I had more info to report and would have had a chance to meet some site construction personnel.   
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2014, 11:56:33 PM »
I was on a trip past Sand Valley Monday.  I intended to get out and take some pix and see how the grubbing of pine and trash bush is going.  Unfortunately a pretty decent rain, and lightening storm was passing and I didn't have much time to wait it out.  So, the only thing I can report is that an entrance road has had some new heavy crushed rock has been placed presumably to move some heavy equipment in on the sandy road.  There was two cars parked at the entry, one with Virginia plates and one with Illinois plates, with that one containing some books in the back seat that were geography manuals apparently of the study of sand dune formations.  I wonder if Mr K himself might have been out on the land.  I hope they had a lightening proof umbrella or a shelter out there.  I walked in with umbrella about 1000 yards and saw no evidence of anyone on the site and no real evidence of work and equipment on site.  I wish I had more info to report and would have had a chance to meet some site construction personnel.   

Dick, you would have made a fine cop. [emoticon implied]
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #63 on: August 07, 2014, 12:15:12 AM »
Yeah Rick, probably best not to have been a H.S. English teacher or journalist.  ::) :-\
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

DJohnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2014, 11:05:38 AM »
http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/top-architects-will-compete-right-design-mike-keisers-sand-valley?sct=hp5

Speaking exclusively to Golf.com, Keiser explained that routings have been submitted by Tom Doak, David McLay Kidd and the team of Rod Whitman/Dave Axland. Following an evaluation of all three, a winner will emerge from the bake-off.

“We’re considering all three entries equally,” Keiser said. “On November 15, I’m going to walk the routings, along with a group of advisors. After we’re done, we’re going to blind rate them. We’ll know more after the weekend.”
...

“Jim Craig and Troy Russell (from the Coore-Crenshaw team) are rough grading, roughing in greensites right now,” Keiser said. “We’ll give a few of these greens a trial run before winter sets in.”

[[[Editorial:  it is snowing there right now and the long term forecast looks like winter is setting in at this moment.]]]
...

Don’t expect to play Sand Valley anytime soon, however. Keiser expects construction throughout 2015, limited preview play in 2016 and a grand opening in 2017. If the track records of Mike Kesier and Coore-Crenshaw are any indication, Sand Valley will be worth the wait.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2014, 11:08:30 AM »
Yeah Rick, probably best not to have been a H.S. English teacher or journalist.  ::) :-\

And why not? You'd have revolutionized this tired old language, Rico!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2014, 11:19:51 AM »
http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/top-architects-will-compete-right-design-mike-keisers-sand-valley?sct=hp5

Speaking exclusively to Golf.com, Keiser explained that routings have been submitted by Tom Doak, David McLay Kidd and the team of Rod Whitman/Dave Axland. Following an evaluation of all three, a winner will emerge from the bake-off.

“We’re considering all three entries equally,” Keiser said. “On November 15, I’m going to walk the routings, along with a group of advisors. After we’re done, we’re going to blind rate them. We’ll know more after the weekend.”
...

“Jim Craig and Troy Russell (from the Coore-Crenshaw team) are rough grading, roughing in greensites right now,” Keiser said. “We’ll give a few of these greens a trial run before winter sets in.”

[[[Editorial:  it is snowing there right now and the long term forecast looks like winter is setting in at this moment.]]]
...

Don’t expect to play Sand Valley anytime soon, however. Keiser expects construction throughout 2015, limited preview play in 2016 and a grand opening in 2017. If the track records of Mike Kesier and Coore-Crenshaw are any indication, Sand Valley will be worth the wait.


Well look at that... A good, old fashioned architectural competition... Plus he's going to blind rate the routings.

I wonder how much weighting he will then put on those routings once he has taken the blindfolds off?

Peter Pallotta

Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2014, 09:43:50 PM »
All those architects are better people (and better professionals) than I am, or sadly could ever imagine myself being.  

If I had 30 years of successful experience and had already done great work(s) for a client and then he came and told me I'd have to work my ass off and "audition" as if I were an unproven rookie just to serve his own personal marketing ends I think I'd tell him to go f--k himself.

It would of course be stupid of me, and ego-driven, and would cut off my nose to spite my face...but I don't think I could stop myself. Is there even one of the rich and powerful who actually respects anyone else/any talent more than he does his own whims and self-conceits?

Peter
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 09:48:12 PM by PPallotta »

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2014, 10:23:19 PM »
Peter,
I am curious how this process would be serving Keiser's own marketing end? I must be missing it.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2014, 11:06:11 PM »
Keith,
It is marketing or why would we even be hearing about it?
Just like the article about the "investors" playing dirt golf "as a bald eagle lazily soared overhead"

And it isn't truly blind or we wouldn't even know the names of the architects involved.

I'm sure it will be great, and I'm sure it will be lauded, but this is starting to feel funny....if Trump was doing any of this the press wold be all over him.

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2014, 01:37:21 AM »
It's a bake off.  Pretty common in a lot of professions.

Everyone submitting is highly qualified, so this seems like a pretty good way to choose an architect - choosing people he highly respects, but then basing the decision on their vision for the property.

I don't see what the issue is.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2014, 05:23:34 AM »

If I had 30 years of successful experience and had already done great work(s) for a client and then he came and told me I'd have to work my ass off and "audition" as if I were an unproven rookie just to serve his own personal marketing ends I think I'd tell him to go f--k himself.


I had the same reaction.  But it's clearly a buyer's market, and Keiser is the most valued buyer of all. 

Still amazes me that Doak -- who will end up as one of the top few architects of all time IMO -- has to 'prove' himself, to a guy he has already designed three of the world's top 30 or 40 ranked courses for.   

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2014, 07:41:10 AM »
1. Tom Coughlin has won a few super bowls, but his Giants are currently in sad shape. Does he get his pick of the next coaching opening? Not if it's the most important and successful owner in the game.

2. If Mr. Keiser continuously gives work to group A and group B only, he eliminates hope from the lexicon of young and/or deserving architects.

3. Mr. Keiser seems to repeatedly break ground in this industry. I can't recall a process like this before.

4. None of the architectural firms in the "finals" was forced to be there, just as none of them was forced to submit a proposal to Rio Olympics.

5. I would have different words for Mr. Keiser, like "Thanks for the opportunity to bid on stateside work."
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2014, 07:48:30 AM »
Don,
I get the fact that  the article is written as a marketing ploy. What I don't get is what Peter thinks Keiser's marketing goal is. It seems like Most people are directly referencing Doak having to audition for the job. Doak is also the most famous of the remaining architects. Why is this process a better means to a marketing end than just hiring Doak and having a press Blitz?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2014, 07:59:29 AM »
As we learned at a questionable course in a well known location, routing is only a part of the process. ::) ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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