Sand Valley first , second , and third course architects, fourth?

[Howard Riefs]

SI's Gary Van Sickle gushes about the C&C course at Sand Valley...


http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/exploring-wisconsins-new-sand-valley-golf-resort

[Carl Nichols]

Sorry if it appears earlier in the thread, but what is the anticipated schedule for the 2nd course?

[George Freeman]

Here are a few shots from my trip up this week.  Sand Valley is going to be a very special place...

#1


#5


#9


#10


#17


#18 - Looking back towards the tee


#10 at sunset

[Dan Moore]

George,

Any insights you would like to share.  Thoughts about the routing, variety of holes, primary characteristics, what defines it as a course, favorite holes etc.

[Howard Riefs]

Golf Channel's Matt Ginella this morning reported on the first and second courses at Sand Valley:


http://www.golfchannel.com/media/ginella-sand-valleys-second-course-taking-shape/


A few other items of note in an accompanying article:

*  Next summer, six holes (Nos. 1, 2 and 15-18) of Kidd's yet-to-be-named course will be available for preview play, with an official opening of all 18 holes in 2018. Meanwhile, the Coore-Crenshaw course, called Sand Valley, will officially open May 1, 2017.

*  Keiser is also working with Coore-Crenshaw on a 30-acre short course."Right now we're calling it the Bump-and-Run," said Michael. "There are 20 holes and they will be everything from 20 to 160 yards. It will be a hybrid of Preserve and Punchbowl." (Bandon's par-3 and putting course, respectively.) “It's really taken on a life of its own. It's awesome."

*  There are also alternate routings by multiple architects for more 18-hole courses and additional short courses. Names include more Coore-Crenshaw, Doak, Mike DeVries and Jim Urbina.

http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/sand-valley-golf-resort-16123.htm

[Max Sternberg]

I believe the name for the second course was (or still is?) Mammoth Dunes. For a brief period after the website launched, the resort map had that name listed for the second course but after a few days it was changed to "Course 2"

[Jason Way]

Just posted a recap of my two visits this year to Sand Valley on my blog, including photos and updates from when I was there for a walkabout on Nov. 30th:


https://geekedongolf.com/2016/12/12/the-sand-valley-story-continues/


Hope you enjoy.  With single digit temps and a covering of snow here, I am already looking forward to getting back up there in the spring.

[Carl Nichols]

Just posted a recap of my two visits this year to Sand Valley on my blog, including photos and updates from when I was there for a walkabout on Nov. 30th:


https://geekedongolf.com/2016/12/12/the-sand-valley-story-continues/


Hope you enjoy.  With single digit temps and a covering of snow here, I am already looking forward to getting back up there in the spring.

Thanks for posting.  Can't wait to get out there.

[Mike Hendren]

I played 14 holes in August and walked the other four.  It's a very good golf course but perhaps I "didn't get it."  It does photograph nicely.

My overall impression is that the course was designed to be accommodating - this coming from one who needs all the accommodation an architect will grant.   There were no hard edges and the architecture seemed rounded off, for lack of a better term.  Can extreme width be boring?  What about giant greens void of internal contouring (okay I'll admit to a little hyperbole there).   For crying out loud I hit all four one-shotters - the 14th was not open for play and is the most stunning hole there in my opinion (and perhaps as close to Pine Valley as I'd like to get), and lipped out birdies on the redan and punchbowl.  Damn near died coming up 18 on what must have been the only windless 100 degree day in Wisconsin this year.  I understand the impact of a routing that clubhouse panorama's dictate, but goodness it appears C & C were trying to one-up Doak's finisher at Pacific Dunes for the ultimate heart attack litmus test.

I don't have my yardage book handy so I'll need to follow up but I must say that it's an indictment against a course when I can't vividly remember each hole or draw a stick routing from memory.  Perhaps it was the heat.  For the digitally enamored crowd, I'd go with a 7.   Among moderns it's a couple of notches below personal favorites Ballyneal (which somehow gets better based upon visiting the next big things) and Bandon Trails.  In the region, it's a full notch below Lawsonia.   Coore, Crenshaw and Langford are all geniuses in my book, but only at Lawsonia is the genius on display.  Splitting 10 rounds, I go 8/2 Lawsonia over Sand Valley. 

Dallas drive-in movie critic Joe Bob Briggs says "check it out."

Bogey

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Bogey. My from-photos-only perspective is (for others) understandably not worth the paper it's written on; but (for me) it's comforting that someone who has played the course confirms what my eyes are telling me. More damning perhaps (though equally uninformed) is this sinking feeling I have that I can no longer distinguish one course from another; looking at those photos I can't tell if I'm on Long Island or in Oregon or the Midwest or New Jersey or North Carolina - and that doesn't seem like a good thing.
Peter

[Sven Nilsen]

I understand the impact of a routing that clubhouse panorama's dictate, but goodness it appears C & C were trying to one-up Doak's finisher at Pacific Dunes for the ultimate heart attack litmus test.

If 18 at Pac is your "litmus test" of an uphill finisher, I'd suggest you get out a bit more.  Its technically downhill from tee to green.


Perhaps it was the walk up to the tees that got you.  In that case, you'd be happy to know its played from the lower up tees in the winter (in which case it might technically be an uphill hole, but only slightly).

[BCowan]

I played 14 holes in August and walked the other four.  It's a very good golf course but perhaps I "didn't get it."  It does photograph nicely.

My overall impression is that the course was designed to be accommodating - this coming from one who needs all the accommodation an architect will grant.   There were no hard edges and the architecture seemed rounded off, for lack of a better term.  Can extreme width be boring?  What about giant greens void of internal contouring (okay I'll admit to a little hyperbole there).   For crying out loud I hit all four one-shotters - the 14th was not open for play and is the most stunning hole there in my opinion (and perhaps as close to Pine Valley as I'd like to get), and lipped out birdies on the redan and punchbowl.  Damn near died coming up 18 on what must have been the only windless 100 degree day in Wisconsin this year.  I understand the impact of a routing that clubhouse panorama's dictate, but goodness it appears C & C were trying to one-up Doak's finisher at Pacific Dunes for the ultimate heart attack litmus test.

I don't have my yardage book handy so I'll need to follow up but I must say that it's an indictment against a course when I can't vividly remember each hole or draw a stick routing from memory.  Perhaps it was the heat.  For the digitally enamored crowd, I'd go with a 7.   Among moderns it's a couple of notches below personal favorites Ballyneal (which somehow gets better based upon visiting the next big things) and Bandon Trails.  In the region, it's a full notch below Lawsonia.   Coore, Crenshaw and Langford are all geniuses in my book, but only at Lawsonia is the genius on display.  Splitting 10 rounds, I go 8/2 Lawsonia over Sand Valley. 

Dallas drive-in movie critic Joe Bob Briggs says "check it out."

Bogey

Mr Bogey,

    Thank you for a detailed review.  It's refreshing to hear someone with honest viewpoint.  Lawsonia is in my top 5 short list, maybe 2018 i will fit it in....

[BCowan]

Just posted a recap of my two visits this year to Sand Valley on my blog, including photos and updates from when I was there for a walkabout on Nov. 30th:


https://geekedongolf.com/2016/12/12/the-sand-valley-story-continues/


Hope you enjoy.  With single digit temps and a covering of snow here, I am already looking forward to getting back up there in the spring.

Jason,

    Great write up as always.  Would love to see Andy Staples and or Mike Young get a shot at one of the last few courses.  I think i prefer the Kidd course to the C&C course just viewing by photos. 

[Morgan Clawson]

I was able to play Sand Valley 3x in 2016. I played the front 9 on the first trip and the full 18 on the 2nd and 3rd trips.

Here are a few thoughts.  Hopefully they address some of the questions that were asked in earlier posts.

Perfect terrain.  The familiar views of lakes and trees just outside the entrance changes dramatically once inside.  Suddenly the land has morphed into hilly terrain consisting of sand dunes and sandy hills and ridges.  The course has enough changes in elevation to offer terrific views and a variety of uphill, downhill and flattish holes.  The slopes are gradual and soft enough to make for a fairly easy walk .  The walk is less extreme than what is encountered at Erin Hills, Kingsley, Dismal Nicklaus, or even White Bear or Northland in MN.  Lawsonia or Bandon (x Trails) are better comparisons.   There are very few blind shots because the slopes are gradual.  Sand dunes and ridges provide interesting fairway contours and green sites.

Playability for different skill levels.  Duffers like me will appreciate the wide fairways that catch balls that would normally land in the rough or rattle around in a tree's branches.  Forced carries were optional on all of the holes I played.  The player can choose his line and level of risk. Low cappers can take aggressive lines over the sand to catch a speed slot and maximize distance. There are 6 tee boxes ranging from 6800 to 5300 yards (par 70).  Mike Kaiser has expressed an interest in creating courses that are more forgiving and playable.  The C+C course has accomplished that.  It is certainly less difficult than Erin Hills or Kohler's Blackwolf/Whistling courses.  Many golfers will not lose a ball during a round.

Expansive feeling.  The feeling of expansiveness is similar to what one experiences at Kingsley or Lawsonia Links. At least 7 holes are visible from the combined 1st and 10th tees.  The fairways are very wide (2-3x a parkland course) with lots of sand on the sides.  There aren't many trees left.  There are no tee boxes as the teeing areas are an extension of the fairways.  Bunkers emerge from the sandy area next to the fairways.  It's a very natural and uncluttered look.

Excellent routing.  The green to tee walks are mostly short.  The way to the next hole is intuitive in most cases and follows the natural flow of the land.  Holes move up, down, and through the sand dunes.

Great hole and green variety.  Each hole and most of the greens were distinct.  Some greens had tiers, some had significant contours, some had minimal contours with significant slopes, and some were rather flattish.  As a collection, they are less extreme than at many of the peer courses I've mentioned above.
 
Optimal turf.  The fescue fairways are already fast and firm. The greens are bent and are rolling smooth.

Best holes.  The front 9 is the stronger of the 2 for me. I think that the last 3 holes of both the front and back are the standouts for each 9.  Hole 7 (par 5) has a fascinating serpentine bunker that emerges from the left side and then runs in the middle of the fairway for about 30-40% of the length of the hole. Hole 8 (par 3) is the one of the best short par 3s I have played. There are a lot of elements on this little hole: uphill tee shot, infinity green, massive bunkers short, lots of wind, green with more slope than you think.  Hole 9 (par 4) is a dramatic downhill short par 4 that big hitters can reach.  The green has an interesting horseshoe-shaped back tier that makes judging the 2nd shot - even a short one - challenging.  Hole 16 (par 4) has really bold and interesting fairway contours and a great kick plate left of the green. Like number 7, this one will take more plays to figure-out the best ways to play it. Hole 17 is a long uphill par 3 to a punchbowl green that is hidden behind 2 grassed dunes. This green reminded me of some I saw at Dormie where there were many little sections within the green itself. Hole 18 is a long par 5 that travels up the hill. The green looks so far-away from the tee. Imposing bunkers must be avoided with all 3 shots.   The green is massive; I believe it's 50 yards deep.  This is a BIG hole, which is the perfect way to end your 18 hole journey.

Management.  The Kaisers and their team are dialed-in and making all the right choices.  It took many years for the short course and the Punchbowl to be built at Bandon.  They are not waiting at Sand Valley. A short pitch and putt course is being built right now. An alternate 6th hole that runs from the 5th green back to the starters/half way house has been built to create a 6 hole loop.  Beers and cocktails are $3. Burgers/brats and (awesome) Italian beef sandwiches are 4 or $5.  Some of the employees were transferred from Bandon. Clark was their front man when I visited and couldn't have been more accommodating and enthusiastic.  The on-course lodging is being built adjacent to the courses and looks to have the perfect mix of nice but laid-back finishes.

I will post some pictures soon.

[Ryan Farrow]

Michael H, I may be a bit biased having spent 2 years on the project at Sand Valley but to say you would play Lawsonia 8 out of 10 rounds there is a bit of a head scratcher. I like Lawsonia as much as the next guy but the two golf courses are not in the same league in many respects. I think Lawsonia's greens are fantastic but they lack variety in shape and size in my opinion. There are a few outliers but after my first round I suffered a bit from remembering the holes, especially on the back 9 where 7 or so holes run parallel to each other on a fairly uninspiring piece of ground.


If you are having a difficult time remembering the holes at SV I see that as more of an indictment on you The course weaves in and out of some pretty unique and varying land forms/environments and each hole and green site is vastly different from the next. I couldn't disagree more with your assessment.


The extensive width is fine to me, there are plenty of pins out there which dictate all 60-80 yards of fairway at times, it is not width for the sake of width. You also need to understand the ground out here is big and broad. With firm an fast fescue fairways you need to leave a lot room for the ball to roll out or otherwise well placed shots will end up in sand and/or native vegetation. I know you were a bit playful with your comment about green contouring but they are certainly not flat or boring. We have punch bowls, perched greens, greens with one strong consistent tilt like the 2nd, greens like the 9th with a massive tier that separates the front and back.



With that said, I recommend Lawsonia as a must play for anyone coming to visit Sand Valley. The shaping work and contours coming off of those massive bunkers is a thing of beauty in and of itself. Believe me when I say that Sand Valley will be the go to summer golf destination in the US. I know this message board kind of poo pooed the comparison to Pine Valley when this place was getting off the ground but if you had the chance to walk around the 1,000's upon 1,000's of acres they have available for golf you would have felt the same way. The future of Sand Valley is brighter than anyone could have imagined.

[BHoover]

Ryan, I have not yet played Sand Valley, so I will preface my remarks with that upfront. Having played Lawsonia, I think I understand where Bogey is coming from when he says he prefers Lawsonia over Sand Valley. I thought Lawsonia was an incredible value. I played it the same weekend I played Erin Hills. I enjoyed Erin Hills, and I'm glad that I've played it. But I could play two days (all day) at Lawsonia for the cost of a single round at Erin Hills. I don't know what the costs will be to play Sand Valley, but I think I'm safe in assuming that Lawsonia will continue to be a better value versus Sand Valley. So I probably would play Lawsonia more often than Sand Valley.


That said, I do hope to play at Sand Valley at some point.

[Ryan Farrow]

Ryan, I have not yet played Sand Valley, so I will preface my remarks with that upfront. Having played Lawsonia, I think I understand where Bogey is coming from when he says he prefers Lawsonia over Sand Valley. I thought Lawsonia was an incredible value. I played it the same weekend I played Erin Hills. I enjoyed Erin Hills, and I'm glad that I've played it. But I could play two days (all day) at Lawsonia for the cost of a single round at Erin Hills. I don't know what the costs will be to play Sand Valley, but I think I'm safe in assuming that Lawsonia will continue to be a better value versus Sand Valley. So I probably would play Lawsonia more often than Sand Valley.


That said, I do hope to play at Sand Valley at some point.

I played Lawsonia in the Spring for $30. Probably the best value round I ever played but you are looking at $95 in the summer, on the weekend (still a great deal). $155 all day. Keep in mind, not many people are going to travel 5,6,7,8 hours to play Lawsonia.  I am just going to ignore the fact that you valued a round of golf without ever experiencing it.

[BHoover]

Ryan, I have not yet played Sand Valley, so I will preface my remarks with that upfront. Having played Lawsonia, I think I understand where Bogey is coming from when he says he prefers Lawsonia over Sand Valley. I thought Lawsonia was an incredible value. I played it the same weekend I played Erin Hills. I enjoyed Erin Hills, and I'm glad that I've played it. But I could play two days (all day) at Lawsonia for the cost of a single round at Erin Hills. I don't know what the costs will be to play Sand Valley, but I think I'm safe in assuming that Lawsonia will continue to be a better value versus Sand Valley. So I probably would play Lawsonia more often than Sand Valley.


That said, I do hope to play at Sand Valley at some point.

I played Lawsonia in the Spring for $30. Probably the best value round I ever played but you are looking at $95 in the summer, on the weekend (still a great deal). $155 all day. Keep in mind, not many people are going to travel 5,6,7,8 hours to play Lawsonia.  I am just going to ignore the fact that you valued a round of golf without ever experiencing it.

I'll try to get to Sand Valley in 2017, but I can't say it's my top priority. Living in the Twin Cities, I did drive 4 hours to Lawsonia, and I will do so again in 2017.

[Ryan Farrow]

Twin cities, you are practically next door. It should be your top priority. Why are you not convinced?

[BHoover]

Twin cities, you are practically next door. It should be your top priority. Why are you not convinced?

I never said I wasn't convinced. I have two small boys at home who take up most of my free time. So when I do have the time to play, I'm going to maximize the value and play as much as I can, hence the reason I'll be going back to Lawsonia.


I'll get to SV when I am able to do so.

[Morgan Clawson]

Ryan -

I enjoyed meeting you at Sand Valley last year.  You have certainly done some exceptional work there.

I agree that the width of the fairways is important.  I was quite windy on all 3 of my trips there (approx. two clubs).  When the wind was coming directly from the side, the width was definitely appreciated and it made the shot really fun.  This was also a heavier rain year. In more normal years I expect that the fairways will be drier and the ball will run more.

What are the next steps for the C+C course?   

[Tim Gavrich]

Having played SV and Lawsonia in the same day back in August, I find myself between Bogey and Ryan's POVs, but closer to Ryan's. I thought the rolling shaping at SV blended the course into the surroundings nicely, and even though I shot a pleasant score, I didn't by any stretch feel as though the course was too easy or anything like that. Nor did I find the greens as lacking in internal contour. I imagine they'll get at least a little faster in the coming years, and will continue to be a lot of fun to putt and pitch to.


Ryan, I did like Lawsonia's back nine a bit more than you do. Part of it may have to do with the fact that I arrived on that open sloping bit of land late on a perfect-weather day and experienced the "Golden Hour," which I thought highlighted the contours splendidly. I was inspired, but will admit to having been taken in by the whole scene.


If pressed, I'd go 6-4 in favor of SV. But both courses exist in very different contexts. That said, visitors to SV should absolutely check out Lawsonia, at least until there are more than two or three "big" courses on-site at SV.


As an addendum, I think the Keisers' aggressive focus on short courses is brilliant, because a lot of the folks who were okay walking 36 in a day at Bandon a decade or more ago are getting to the age where it's going to be beyond their desire or capability at SV. 18 and a knock around the Bump & Run will be perfect. Bravo.

[Mike Hendren]

Ryan, you are justifiably proud of you work at Sand Valley, and your comments and Morgan's are far more thoughtful than mine.  I appreciate them.

I'm likely biased as we continue to be inundated with the "next big thing" almost universally sited on rollicking, heaving, dunesy landscapes in  unlikely locales.  It's a good thing for golf architecture, but I can't help but wonder if the genre might become dated a few decades down the road.  I can't help but think that Ben and Bill should have broken the mold after Sand Hills and Bandon Trails (though Friar's Head looks mighty tasty!) and Tom should have done the same after Ballyneal and Pacific Dunes.   I am so fond of their work and a man's got to make a living and I guess I'm just aggravated that they won't be building anything in my back yard during our collective lifetimes. 

Fwiw, my preference for Lawsonia has nothing to do with value.  I'm biased because it's darn near perfect for me. I think it's a solid 8 but suspect that's a point higher than most would have it.  I think Lawsonia is the quintessential American golf course, made all the better by the fact that no one has seen fit to ruin it over an extended period of time. 

I visit Madison annually in August and hope to make many more trips to Sand Valley.  After all, it's a lot more convenient than Brora.

Cheers ya'll.

[Ronald Montesano]

I echo your melancholy, amigo. We have no Doak, no CC, in Buffalo-Niagara (nor over the border, for that matter.) We have an RTJ2PostChambers north of Niagara Falls, that RTJ2 had the sense to not push up and create faux-dunes. It's a flat piece of land and he allows it to play that way.


I suspect it would be nice to have one of their tracks as a home layout, but alas, not all are fated to have that benefit.


Happy Holidays, y'all.

I am so fond of their work and a man's got to make a living and I guess I'm just aggravated that they won't be building anything in my back yard during our collective lifetimes. 

[Rob Collins]

I played 14 holes in August and walked the other four.  It's a very good golf course but perhaps I "didn't get it."  It does photograph nicely.

My overall impression is that the course was designed to be accommodating - this coming from one who needs all the accommodation an architect will grant.   There were no hard edges and the architecture seemed rounded off, for lack of a better term.  Can extreme width be boring?  What about giant greens void of internal contouring (okay I'll admit to a little hyperbole there).   For crying out loud I hit all four one-shotters - the 14th was not open for play and is the most stunning hole there in my opinion (and perhaps as close to Pine Valley as I'd like to get), and lipped out birdies on the redan and punchbowl.  Damn near died coming up 18 on what must have been the only windless 100 degree day in Wisconsin this year.  I understand the impact of a routing that clubhouse panorama's dictate, but goodness it appears C & C were trying to one-up Doak's finisher at Pacific Dunes for the ultimate heart attack litmus test.

I don't have my yardage book handy so I'll need to follow up but I must say that it's an indictment against a course when I can't vividly remember each hole or draw a stick routing from memory.  Perhaps it was the heat.  For the digitally enamored crowd, I'd go with a 7.   Among moderns it's a couple of notches below personal favorites Ballyneal (which somehow gets better based upon visiting the next big things) and Bandon Trails.  In the region, it's a full notch below Lawsonia.   Coore, Crenshaw and Langford are all geniuses in my book, but only at Lawsonia is the genius on display.  Splitting 10 rounds, I go 8/2 Lawsonia over Sand Valley. 

Dallas drive-in movie critic Joe Bob Briggs says "check it out."

Bogey

Bogey,
You have really pissed me off this time. Normally, I refrain from responding to your comments, but I can't hold back with this. What exactly is the problem with the most accomplished modern architectural company on the planet applying their philosophy to a rolling sandy terrain?   


You work so hard to be a contrarian that you lose sight of what is in front of you. I do not deny that Lawsonia is a great course -- better than SV? Come on.


In the end, what irritates me most is that you have no idea what it takes to convert raw land into what C&C built at Sand Valley. To make unfounded, intentionally contrarian comments without the foundation to back up your thesis is insulting.