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Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0

No, they didn't get into much detail.  But they had breaking news - Tiger was practicing his putting.

The things I learned from the 2 segments were:
1) Keiser visited Gamble Sands and loved it.  That gave Kidd the chance.
2) Kidd's course will open in 2018, 1 year after Coore and Crenshaw's opens in 2017.
3) Kidd was able to pick the land he wanted (other than C&Cs). He chose a parcel that contains a V shaped ridge. The holes will play on both sides of the ridge. I think he said the ridge was 80 feet high in places.


Ginella's accompanying article that captures most of the above:

http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/david-mclay-kidd-sand-valley-wisconsin-14936.htm

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Exciting project irrespective of who gets the job for this course and following courses, another destination to add to our lists.
100 years from now, how will Mr Keiser be seen in terms of golf course architecture, what a pioneer he was in creating a new form of venue?
A welathy man with a passion for the game  and as such created an array of canvasses for architects to show off their craft?
Or just a good business man with a winning model to create more money.

Combination of the above.
Either way thank you Mr Keiser for giving all on this site many monets of fun in both writing and playing your creations.

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0

Ginella's accompanying article that captures most of the above:

http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/david-mclay-kidd-sand-valley-wisconsin-14936.htm


Very good article. The following paragraph from the story indicates that Doak and Whitman picked different parcels of land than Kidd did.  So, each can still build what they want for courses 3 and 4.

"What's amazing is that all three architects gravitated to three different parts of the property," says Lesnik, who was also 28 when Keiser named him the original general manager of Bandon Dunes in 1999. "Mike really likes all three routings, and with almost no overlap, chances are, he'll eventually build all three."

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
The courses I've played designed by DMK, I thought, were really good to great. Sure, there will be some disappointment that Tom Doak didn't receive the commission as it is close to his home base and his portfolio is outstanding, but it's not exactly like MK hired Fazio or Nicklaus for a "signature" design.   

Pat, totally agree with you.  I didn't mean to say DMK was a bad choice, just a slightly unexpected one.  I guess I had assumed the job would go to Doak or Hanse. 

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0

Ginella's accompanying article that captures most of the above:

http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/david-mclay-kidd-sand-valley-wisconsin-14936.htm


Very good article. The following paragraph from the story indicates that Doak and Whitman picked different parcels of land than Kidd did.  So, each can still build what they want for courses 3 and 4.

"What's amazing is that all three architects gravitated to three different parts of the property," says Lesnik, who was also 28 when Keiser named him the original general manager of Bandon Dunes in 1999. "Mike really likes all three routings, and with almost no overlap, chances are, he'll eventually build all three."

Josh Lesnik just might be the smartest and most honest guy I've ever known in the golf business, so I'll place a lot of confidence in that statement.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I can't believe the talk about 3rd and 4th courses at this stage.  I guess it is "the vision thing".  ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
The courses I've played designed by DMK, I thought, were really good to great. Sure, there will be some disappointment that Tom Doak didn't receive the commission as it is close to his home base and his portfolio is outstanding, but it's not exactly like MK hired Fazio or Nicklaus for a "signature" design.   

Pat, totally agree with you.  I didn't mean to say DMK was a bad choice, just a slightly unexpected one.  I guess I had assumed the job would go to Doak or Hanse. 

Latter rather unlikely as he wasn't on the (publicly disclosed) shortlist
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
... He chose a parcel that contains a V shaped ridge. The holes will play on both sides of the ridge. I think he said the ridge was 80 feet high in places.


Will there be hole(s) crossing the ridge? Or, didn't they go into that much detail?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #158 on: December 03, 2014, 06:48:12 PM »
RJ, there's no doubt that a rabid golfer COULD do that. If I still lived in Madison, I probably wouldn't hesitate to play 36 at Sand Valley on a day trip. But Sand Valley's business model will require and expect tourist play. As a tourist, I don't generally travel to a place so that I can drive all over hell while I'm there.

My only real point is that it comes down to a simple question of supply and demand. Is demand for high end resort golf in Wisconsin high enough to justify another high end destination course? Will demand increase simply through the construction of another must-see golf destination some 90 minutes from the others in the area? And if there isn't quite enough demand, then what happens?

Hopefully there's enough demand. I don't doubt that there is. I just wonder what happens if there isn't. It could be a really good thing - maybe Kohler and Erin Hills see a drop in play and subsequently drop their prices, which would be great for me. I'm just interested to see what happens.

Jason,

I don't know whether you have ever played golf in Scotland or Ireland, but there have long been many Americans who have been willing to "drive all over hell" to play quality golf courses.

Based on the distances Dick Daley describes, travel wouldn't seem to be a barrier. Certainly not for golf architecture junkies.
Tim Weiman

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
... He chose a parcel that contains a V shaped ridge. The holes will play on both sides of the ridge. I think he said the ridge was 80 feet high in places.


Will there be hole(s) crossing the ridge? Or, didn't they go into that much detail?


Kidd talked about getting to the other side of the ridge in a couple of spots. He said that was his biggest challenge in doing the routing.  They had a routing map sitting on an easel. But they didn't focus in tight enough to show any detail. 

Daniel Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Very good article. The following paragraph from the story indicates that Doak and Whitman picked different parcels of land than Kidd did.  So, each can still build what they want for courses 3 and 4.

"What's amazing is that all three architects gravitated to three different parts of the property," says Lesnik, who was also 28 when Keiser named him the original general manager of Bandon Dunes in 1999. "Mike really likes all three routings, and with almost no overlap, chances are, he'll eventually build all three."

What fun it must be to have enough money to dream it *and* do it....
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0

What fun it must be to have enough money to dream it *and* do it....

No doubt

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Very good article. The following paragraph from the story indicates that Doak and Whitman picked different parcels of land than Kidd did.  So, each can still build what they want for courses 3 and 4.

"What's amazing is that all three architects gravitated to three different parts of the property," says Lesnik, who was also 28 when Keiser named him the original general manager of Bandon Dunes in 1999. "Mike really likes all three routings, and with almost no overlap, chances are, he'll eventually build all three."

What fun it must be to have enough money to dream it *and* do it....

....and to know enough people willing to fork over $40thd a piece to be a "founding member" of what will be a public facility and to act as the equity behind what is surely a construction loan.
H.P.S.

Mike Bowen

Very good article. The following paragraph from the story indicates that Doak and Whitman picked different parcels of land than Kidd did.  So, each can still build what they want for courses 3 and 4.

"What's amazing is that all three architects gravitated to three different parts of the property," says Lesnik, who was also 28 when Keiser named him the original general manager of Bandon Dunes in 1999. "Mike really likes all three routings, and with almost no overlap, chances are, he'll eventually build all three."

What fun it must be to have enough money to dream it *and* do it....

....and to know enough people willing to fork over $40thd a piece to be a "founding member" of what will be a public facility and to act as the equity behind what is surely a construction loan.

I do have to say that this is the most appealing membership I have ever heard of.  Then again I'm a man of the people and have no interest in a gated off golf course.  ;D

Todd Melrose

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm just glad to know that there could be 5 courses on this property.......
Congrats to Kidd for winning the bid- no doubt this also helps draw some more attention to what he did at Gamble Sands

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
I wish they had published that drawing of the winning routing prior to announcing who actually designed it. Reading the guesses would've been an early Christmas gift.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Am I nuts to think that given the initial huge buzz he got very early in his career and the mixed reception many of his more recent courses have gotten that the stakes are rather high for David with this project?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Am I nuts to think that given the initial huge buzz he got very early in his career and the mixed reception many of his more recent courses have gotten that the stakes are rather high for David with this project?"

Jud T -

You might be! ;) Aside from the Castle Course, what other DK courses have received a "mixed reception?" Haven't many of his recent courses have been very well received?

DT

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Am I nuts to think that given the initial huge buzz he got very early in his career and the mixed reception many of his more recent courses have gotten that the stakes are rather high for David with this project?

No bigger than others. I think the 'mixed reception' is for, if you like, David's previous batch of courses - Tetherow, Castle, Stonebrae. His recent work - Guacalito and Gamble for example - has been very well received, and from what I've seen of Comporta and Beaverbrook, I'd be surprised if they didn't go down very well too.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Jud, he's going to get a boost in name recognition no matter what and all signs point to Sand Valley turning out as an excellent golf resort and destination. How bad would the course have to be to hurt his brand as opposed to helping it? Even if it's the least popular course at the resort in 10 years, his future clients still get to say that they have "David McLay Kidd, of Bandon Dunes and Sand Valley fame" as their designer.

The stakes are high in terms of his reputation on GolfClubAtlas.com. I'm not sure that there's much risk to offset the reward he will undoubtedly reap in real life though.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Adam,

Although not recent, wouldn't Mach Dunes also be in the 'mixed' column?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jud - I would agree the initial reaction to Mach Dunes was pretty mixed, but would argue that most of the negative responses were caused by things that weren't within David's control. You have to remember the restrictions under which that course was built; they weren't allowed to move any earth, except for tees and greens complexes, and there were many areas of the site they were forced to avoid. It was largely this that led to the complaints of excessive blindness and a tough walk.

I remember shortly after we reviewed Mach Dunes in GCA receiving a letter from an American golf tour operator saying that in his opinion the course should never have been built, because the restrictions were too tight to allow something good to have been created. I disagreed at the time and still do. And it's interesting to note that, over time Scottish Natural Heritage and the golf course have developed a more cooperative, trusting relationship, and thus they've been allowed to fix a lot of the problems. I note also that negative reviews of the course are much fewer now than they were at first.

I've contrasted the development of Mach Dunes with that of Trump Aberdeen in print a number of times. In Kintyre, the developers were required to tread very carefully and proceed slowly; at Trump, the MO was bluster and confrontation, and that got him most of what he wanted. But I know which model I think is better for golf and its relations with the world around it. And I know which is more sustainable.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
The stakes are high in terms of his reputation on GolfClubAtlas.com.

This being all that matters to the cognescenti anyway... 8)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
DMK talked about Sand Valley on Morning Drive today:

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/plans-sand-valley-wisconsin/

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

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