[Mark Pearce]

There are others not on Sean's list.  I'd add Silloth and Saunton, possibly B&B, I suspect Sunny Old and WH New should be on there (haven't played either), Berkshire Red has a shout, Turnberry, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart and Renaissance without thinking too hard.  Machrihanish is lovely and I can see why it might be someone's favourite course but, judged purely on the course, it doesn't belong in the world top 100.  

[Ally Mcintosh]

Deal
TOC
Prestwick
Sunny Old
Sandwich
Rye
Alwoodley
St Enodoc
N Beriwck
Co Down
WHO
ST Georges Hill
The Island
Formby
Cruden Bay
Royal Aberdeen
Dornoch
Portrush
Swinley
Portstewart
Muirfield
Birkdale
Portmarnock
Sunny New
Sligo
Woking
Ganton
Sacred 9
Hoyake
Trump
_________

IMO the above are far superior to Machrihanish and there are more I would take ahead of Machrihanish.  Basically, Machrihanish is incredibly over-rated.  Wonderful front 9, very mixed bag back 9 - its a solid Doak 6 - nowhere near top the lofty rating GD has given it.  As I said before, Machrihanish is no better than Pennard (and even more solid 6) or Brora and as much as I love Pennard, it would struggle to make my top 35 GB&I.  

Ciao

Very harsh in my opinion Sean... 10 is a wonderful par-5, 11 is just a classic tough links par-3... 13th is an excellent 4 with an interesting false front and then big front to back slope.... 14 has an absolutely top-notch green and 15 is a really good mid length par-3.... Finish is weakish but it has some things going for it. All in all, a lower lying but more classic inland nine to the dunes expanse of the outward nine...

Good mix, thoroughly enjoyable round and top-10 GB&I set of greens...

[Paul Jones]

Really bad to put this up - Riviera up twice, looks like they fixed the missing #32 but now #35 and #34 are in reverse order, etc.

The Links @ Fancourt wouldn't have been my guess to fill the missing spot.

Where is The Alotian Club?

Looks like Alotian just missed out on the rankings as it is Ranked 41 and only Top 40 from US made it - http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2014-02/best-golf-courses-in-205-countries?currentPage=2

Kinda odd since I remember Alotion being ranked very high on the last Golf Digest Rankings.

Paul

[Matthew Sander]

If a publication produces 3 lists (US, Outside US and now World) shouldn't their be some correlation between the original 2 and the latter? If not doesn't the significant discrepancies discredit all 3?

Greg,

I think your concern is valid. However, in the intro GD mentions that there is input from other than just the US panelists. That could account for some of the discrepancies between this list and the others.

That said, your question about the need for some correlation is a good one, especially with some some extreme examples such as the Alotian Club.

[Sean_A]

Brian & Ally

Really, you think a Doak 6 is very harsh for Machrihanish?  Are you suggesting something significantly higher is in order?

Brian - for me, Pennard is between a 6 and 7, clearly better than Machrihanish, but perhaps just shy of great - so I settle with 6, not a bad score if truth be told.  I do tend to agree that once we get past the very best courses, the numerical ranking is less meaningful.  However, I still think there are at least 35 courses in GB&I that I would say are comfortably better than Machrihanish.  When I look at my Links100, I have Machrihanish smashed between Wallasey and Tenby just below and Silloth and Brora just above.  Maybe I will make it back to Machrihanish one day as a side trip to Dunes, but having been there twice, I am not itching to go back.  

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Brian & Ally

Really, you think a Doak 6 is very harsh for Machrihanish?  Are you suggesting something significantly higher is in order?

Brian - for me, Pennard is between a 6 and 7, clearly better than Machrihanish, but perhaps just shy of great - so I settle with 6, not a bad score if truth be told.  I do tend to agree that once we get past the very best courses, the numerical ranking is less meaningful.  However, I still think there are at least 35 courses in GB&I that I would say are comfortably better than Machrihanish.  When I look at my Links100, I have Machrihanish smashed between Wallasey and Tenby just below and Silloth and Brora just above.  Maybe I will make it back to Machrihanish one day as a side trip to Dunes, but having been there twice, I am not itching to go back.  

Ciao

Sean:

Machrihanish is a 7 in The Confidential Guide, I believe.  Pennard was a 6, but I realized that was stingy, it's a 7 now.  Brora will get a 7 as well.  Silloth was not as highly rated last time, I probably missed that [for reasons mentioned in the review] based on what Ran and Darius and others have said, but I haven't been back.

I don't think I have 100 courses rated at 8 or higher, but I probably have more than 100 rated at 7 and therefore (in theory) fighting for the last spots in my own personal top 100.  All the courses mentioned above would be of that ilk.  Wallasey and Tenby, not.

[Tom_Doak]

Looks like Alotian just missed out on the rankings as it is Ranked 41 and only Top 40 from US made it - http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2014-02/best-golf-courses-in-205-countries?currentPage=2

Kinda odd since I remember Alotion being ranked very high on the last Golf Digest Rankings.

I would bet a dollar that after the 40 courses from the U.S. that finished among the top 100 in the world in the new poll, they just listed the rest of the U.S. courses in the order of their own U.S. top 100, so as not to cast even more doubt on the discrepancies.  It just seems too much of a coincidence for Alotian to have finished 41st.  I am usually also skeptical of the courses that are listed at the bottom of any rankings, whether they were really #99 or the editors just "broke a tie" in favor of a more exotic place and moved it up from #102.  The number of American courses chosen (a round 40) sounds a bit like a quota.

[David_Tepper]

Geoff Shackelford's thoughts on the GD Top 100:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/1/9/golf-digest-unveils-first-ever-world-100-greatest.html

[Mark Chaplin]

Ally - Royal Porthcawl is a very good course but massively over achieves due to its location in Wales. If it was next to Burnham & Berrow or Prestwick it would have held a fraction of the events they've hosted.

[Scott Warren]

I finally took a good look at the list itself, ignoring the laughable editorials that accompany each entry.

It seems there's a heap of courses that received a massive boost on account of their "vibe".

Royal Dornoch, Barnbougle Dunes, Barnbougle Lost Farm, Swinley Forest, Rye and St Enodoc are all in world-beating settings and there are few places on earth I'd rather hang out than those courses and their surrounds. But the courses do not stand up to the rankings they've been assigned.

[Jim Nugent]

Royal Dornoch, Barnbougle Dunes, Barnbougle Lost Farm, Swinley Forest, Rye and St Enodoc are all in world-beating settings and there are few places on earth I'd rather hang out than those courses and their surrounds. But the courses do not stand up to the rankings they've been assigned.

Golf Magazine ranks Dornoch 14th in the world.  Golf Week ranks it 4th in GBI classics, above Ballybunion, Sunny Old and Muirfield, which probably puts it world top 20.  

GD ranks Dornoch 14th in the world.  Top 100 ranks it 12th in the world... Links ranks it 12th in the world.  

Dornoch is one of the only 10s on the Doak scale, and was top ten world in that architects poll that came out last year.  

Scott, I don't believe in consensus science, but in the case of Royal Dornoch you are definitely in a (very) small minority.  

btw, I'm pretty sure Barnie Dunes ranks top 40-50 in just about every magazine ranking as well.  

[Scott Warren]

Jim,

There's a small but significant difference in class between the world top 10-12 courses I've played and those around 15-25.

I agree Dornoch is a great course full of thrilling holes in an all-world location and it should be right NEAR the pointy end of the list, but not AT the pointy end among the six best.

Of what I have played I would have it behind PV, R. Melbourne West, National & Prairie Dunes and in the same ballpark as Sand Hills, Barnbougle Dunes, The Old Course, R. St George's and Riviera.

So this is no slight on Dornoch, and no slight on Barnbougle to say it's not worthy of number 11. If you're sitting anywhere in the top 50 you've got an outstanding bloody golf course.

[Mark Chaplin]

Golf World the definitive GB&I guide has Royal Dornoch 9, Royal Porthcawl 40, Machrihanish 48 and Rye 53 in GB&I.

[Mark Pearce]

Golf World the definitive GB&I guide has Royal Dornoch 9, Royal Porthcawl 40, Machrihanish 48 and Rye 53 in GB&I.

True.  But Dornoch is better than that.  It's certainly better than Turnberry, which sits above it in that list, I believe.  In my view, of the UK courses I have played, Dornoch sits with Muirifeld as one of the three best courses I have ever played (the third is not in the UK).  I don't consider any of these lists definitive, by the way, and nor should anyone else.

[Andrew Hastie]

With only Morfontaine and Valderama, Continental Europe seems underrepresented. Seems there could be 2-3 more on the list..... (and I am not sure Valderama belongs on it)

Frank: I'm thinking Royal Hague as the obvious one (though I haven't played it) - what others do you think merit consideration? El Saler I would probably say misses out given the lofty company...

Royal Hague should easily be in if you believe Ran, Adam and Clayts. But then I am biased.....



Others that should be considered are: Pan, Falkenstein, Fontainebleau (with a good tree removal program).

Next rung would be St. Germain, Kennemer, El Saler, Noordwijk, Zoute....

I wouldn't put Valderrama in the top 10 in Europe let alone the 100 in the world! I haven't played Morfontaine but judging from what I have read and the photos I have seen it looks superb.  Royal Hague is amazing and is getting better and better with on going work and is my personal favorite on the continent. Definitely deserves a top 100!  Royal Zoute is very good but the condition is just too soft and features like fairway bunkers being twenty meters in the rough aren't helping much either.  Noordwijk has some fabulous dunes and some great holes but there are just to many bad golf holes, over rated.  De Pan is great but could do with some tree removal.
Frank, what do you think of Oitavos dunes? Is disappointing but still there isn't much better in Europe.

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark from a GB&I perspective Golf World uses raters from within the industry - pros, top amateurs, selectors, county union officials, architects, etc.
No one searching for a bit of access or a free lunch and sleeve of balls. Most importantly there is no romantic bias which is so apparent with overseas rankings of GB&I courses.

Dornoch isn't in my top ten and I've yet to play RCD, Portrush, Turnberry, Ganton or Carnoustie so I have a few gaps in my top end knowledge. For me the round fades out after 15.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

Maybe no "romantic" bias.  Plenty of other bias evident, though.  I'm less likely to take a touring pro's opinion of rankings as many on this site.  I'd love to hear your list of 10 GB&I courses better than Dornoch, by the way, given that ity doesn't include those you listed as not having played.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark from a GB&I perspective Golf World uses raters from within the industry - pros, top amateurs, selectors, county union officials, architects, etc.
No one searching for a bit of access or a free lunch and sleeve of balls. Most importantly there is no romantic bias which is so apparent with overseas rankings of GB&I courses.

Dornoch isn't in my top ten and I've yet to play RCD, Portrush, Turnberry, Ganton or Carnoustie so I have a few gaps in my top end knowledge. For me the round fades out after 15.

Royal County Down fades out after 15, too, and it also belongs way way up there.

Perhaps what you are referring to as "romantic bias" is just that you are too close to the subject to appreciate what you've got ... you can't see the forest for the trees.  Although, the common thread with all of the courses you and Scott are knocking, is that they all feature great scenery.  Perhaps that's not as important to you as it is to some others, but suggesting that this makes their opinions unserious is a bit smarmy.

[Scott Warren]

Tom,

Can you point out where I "knocked" any course in my post?

Do you agree with Golf Digest that Dornoch is the sixth best golf course in the world and Barnbougle is #11?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Can you point out where I "knocked" any course in my post?

Do you agree with Golf Digest that Dornoch is the sixth best golf course in the world and Barnbougle is #11?

You said "the courses do not stand up to the rankings they've been assigned."  I'd call that a knock, and one with no real basis, at that.

Royal Dornoch is one of a dozen courses in the world that I rated a perfect 10.  If I had to rank those 12, it might be 6th.  I would have it above Prairie Dunes, which you listed among your top six that preclude it -- which is not to say I don't love Prairie Dunes, we are really splitting hairs here.

Barnbougle at #11 is obviously flattering, but I'm not going to say it doesn't belong.  I was just back there last month and I can honestly say it's as good a course as I've done.  I used to think maybe it is a bit overrated when you compare it to the best links in the UK and Ireland, but I've played over there a bunch in the last couple of years and I did not play many courses as interesting as Barnbougle.  I don't see why it couldn't be right with Sand Hills for the best of modern courses, and lots of people put Sand Hills in the top 10.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Can you point out where I "knocked" any course in my post?

Do you agree with Golf Digest that Dornoch is the sixth best golf course in the world and Barnbougle is #11?

You said "the courses do not stand up to the rankings they've been assigned."  I guess you knocked their rankings, but with no real basis, at that.

Royal Dornoch is one of a dozen courses in the world that I rated a perfect 10.  If I had to rank those 12, it might be 6th.  I would have it above Prairie Dunes, which you listed among your top six that preclude it -- which is not to say I don't love Prairie Dunes, we are really splitting hairs here.

Barnbougle at #11 is obviously flattering, but I'm not going to say it doesn't belong.  I was just back there last month and I can honestly say it's as good a course as I've done.  I used to think maybe it is a bit overrated when you compare it to the best links in the UK and Ireland, but I've played over there a bunch in the last couple of years and I did not play many courses as interesting as Barnbougle.  I don't see why it couldn't be right with Sand Hills for the best of modern courses, and lots of people put Sand Hills in the top 10.

[Mark Chaplin]

Tom - Ganton is a pretty solid course by all accounts and solid top 25 GB&I but it's off the tourist trail as is Allwoodly another top 30 course. Neither are in this World Top 100 list but fashionable tourist destinations up to 30 places lower in the GB&I rankings are world top 50, how does that work?

[Sean_A]

Brian & Ally

Really, you think a Doak 6 is very harsh for Machrihanish?  Are you suggesting something significantly higher is in order?

Brian - for me, Pennard is between a 6 and 7, clearly better than Machrihanish, but perhaps just shy of great - so I settle with 6, not a bad score if truth be told.  I do tend to agree that once we get past the very best courses, the numerical ranking is less meaningful.  However, I still think there are at least 35 courses in GB&I that I would say are comfortably better than Machrihanish.  When I look at my Links100, I have Machrihanish smashed between Wallasey and Tenby just below and Silloth and Brora just above.  Maybe I will make it back to Machrihanish one day as a side trip to Dunes, but having been there twice, I am not itching to go back.  

Ciao

Sean:

Machrihanish is a 7 in The Confidential Guide, I believe.  Pennard was a 6, but I realized that was stingy, it's a 7 now.  Brora will get a 7 as well.  Silloth was not as highly rated last time, I probably missed that [for reasons mentioned in the review] based on what Ran and Darius and others have said, but I haven't been back.

I don't think I have 100 courses rated at 8 or higher, but I probably have more than 100 rated at 7 and therefore (in theory) fighting for the last spots in my own personal top 100.  All the courses mentioned above would be of that ilk.  Wallasey and Tenby, not.

Tom

For me, Machrihanish doesn't have that killer hole which plays long.  It has a few good par 5s, but not a single long hole (including 4s) which really knocks me out.  For that reason, I couldn't consider it among the very best courses in the world - which I would consider courses vying for top 100 in the world. Bottom line, it needs better balanced length in its holes.  Before you go on about knocking the course, I think it does very well for course measuring less than 6000 yards from the daily tees.  When I compare Mach to Pennard, I can count several excellent long holes and that is the difference between the two.  In truth, I think it beats Mach in practically every way I can imagine - maybe it should be a 7!  I do recall thinking the last time I played after a reasonable break that I was amazed at how good Pennard was.  I guess I sort of became blase because I played it so often. 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Tom,

Can you point out where I "knocked" any course in my post?

Do you agree with Golf Digest that Dornoch is the sixth best golf course in the world and Barnbougle is #11?

You said "the courses do not stand up to the rankings they've been assigned."  I'd call that a knock, and one with no real basis, at that.

Royal Dornoch is one of a dozen courses in the world that I rated a perfect 10.  If I had to rank those 12, it might be 6th.  I would have it above Prairie Dunes, which you listed among your top six that preclude it -- which is not to say I don't love Prairie Dunes, we are really splitting hairs here.

Barnbougle at #11 is obviously flattering, but I'm not going to say it doesn't belong.  I was just back there last month and I can honestly say it's as good a course as I've done.  I used to think maybe it is a bit overrated when you compare it to the best links in the UK and Ireland, but I've played over there a bunch in the last couple of years and I did not play many courses as interesting as Barnbougle.  I don't see why it couldn't be right with Sand Hills for the best of modern courses, and lots of people put Sand Hills in the top 10.

My suggestion that Dornoch and Barnbougle are rated too highly by Golf Digest is no more a knock than you saying Prairie Dunes is rated too highly by Scott Warren. It's all subjective and there's no "knock" in anything that has been written.

And to suggest my saying so has "no real basis" is ridiculous. The basis for my opinion is my experience playing the courses. On what else would you have me base my opinion of a golf course than the golf course itself?

[Thomas Dai]

Royal Dornoch is one of a dozen courses in the world that I rated a perfect 10.

Tom,

please forgive my forgetfulness, but what were the other 11 courses that you rated a perfect 10?

Atb

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