[JC Jones]

There is often discussion around here about how, for the last 15 years or so we have been experiencing a modern golden age of architecture.  Due to the number of fantastic courses built but some truly legendary designers.  I wonder though how this era will be viewed, posthumously.  This thought was raised by someone in a discussion about the recent choice of C&C to do the new course at Sand Valley.  I made the joke on the Sand Valley thread that it should be called Streamsong north.  Someone else though made a point that caused this thread, and that point was that this choice reflects an impact larger than just having two similar resorts.  

Like the previous golden age, this one was also hit with a financial recession.  This has caused the nber of new golf course commissions to shrink dramatically.  In this period of uncertainty, developers have largely played it safe with the choice of designers being dwindled down to 2 firms.  Were I a developer, I'd probably do the same.  But what will be the long term effect of this?

When looking back to see what differentiates what most of us know think of as a new golden age of architecture (not in quantity, but in quality) and the original golden age will we see that the original brought about both greatness AND variety?

[John Kavanaugh]

All these resorts are fine but you don't make friends at resorts. Baby don't come back.

[Tom_Doak]

JC:  The Golden Age was last decade, not this one.  There was a ton of variety then - everyone from Arthur Hills and Jerry Matthews to Mike Strantz and Jim Engh was busy.  It was the same in the 1920's.

This decade is much more comparable to the 1930's.  Perry Maxwell - a former MacKenzie associate - was busy in the Midwest.  MacKenzie went to South America.  Stanley Thompson was busy in Canada and a few other places with RTJ.  Hugh Alison did his work in Japan.

There wasn't much else going on.  Macdonald had retired, Raynor had died.  Donald Ross scaled down drastically out of necessity.  Tillinghast started his consulting tours for the PGA, in order to pay his bills.  George Thomas went back to his roses.

[Terry Lavin]

So 2 courses by two different architects who know how to work without glorifying the bulldozer or making fake waterfalls is not variety to you if the same two who combined to build a great combo platter 1000 miles away?  Or is this really about the fact that you are rankled that a very creative and successful developer doesn't want to go for a quirky pick for an architect when he's risking millions of his own and a bunch of other people's money too?  Keiser took a chance with Kidd and it paid off for both parties. Same with Doak and Pac Dunes. I guess you're saying that C&C and Doak are safe, commercially bankable architects now which is boring to you and it's time for Keiser to make somebody else famous. Maybe you should invest in Pacific Gales. They're stretching the envelope in a way that might strike your whimsy.

[JC Jones]

JC:  The Golden Age was last decade, not this one.  There was a ton of variety then - everyone from Arthur Hills and Jerry Matthews to Mike Strantz and Jim Engh was busy.  It was the same in the 1920's.

This decade is much more comparable to the 1930's.  Perry Maxwell - a former MacKenzie associate - was busy in the Midwest.  MacKenzie went to South America.  Stanley Thompson was busy in Canada and a few other places with RTJ.  Hugh Alison did his work in Japan.

There wasn't much else going on.  Macdonald had retired, Raynor had died.  Donald Ross scaled down drastically out of necessity.  Tillinghast started his consulting tours for the PGA, in order to pay his bills.  George Thomas went back to his roses.

I think this is an apt analogy.

[JC Jones]

So 2 courses by two different architects who know how to work without glorifying the bulldozer or making fake waterfalls is not variety to you if the same two who combined to build a great combo platter 1000 miles away?  Or is this really about the fact that you are rankled that a very creative and successful developer doesn't want to go for a quirky pick for an architect when he's risking millions of his own and a bunch of other people's money too?  Keiser took a chance with Kidd and it paid off for both parties. Same with Doak and Pac Dunes. I guess you're saying that C&C and Doak are safe, commercially bankable architects now which is boring to you and it's time for Keiser to make somebody else famous. Maybe you should invest in Pacific Gales. They're stretching the envelope in a way that might strike your whimsy.

You're great at summarizing while using the same number of words  

I was trying to make a larger point but yes, if you want to talk about Sand Valley, I think the same guy who took the risk with Kidd and Doak is playing it safe 15 years later.  Also, I'm not sure using someone like Hanse is really "stretching the envelope."  The guy is doing the Olympics course....he has name value.

Was he risking millions at Bandon?  Why is that the excuse for Sand Valley but not the much riskier Bandon.  I don't think we can let Bandon's success erase the fact that, at the time, it was downright crazy to do what he did, where he did it.  Building upscale courses w/in 3 hours of two MAJOR American cities when you already are known as the greatest modern golf developer is hardly a big risk when compared to a no-name in the late 90s using a no-name architect on a piece of property 5 hours from a city best known for piercings and tattoos.

[Jud_T]

Terry,

Classic.  fyi- JC & I are considering investing in a neighboring Wisconsin property, planning on developing courses by Nuzzo, DeVries, Clayton, Urbina and Pont and undercutting Sand Valley on price (yes we will be making our own craft beer and bratwurst)...One interesting side question is how does Tom and C&C's work evolve now that their design philosophies and aesthetic have become the status quo of modern GCA?

[JC Jones]

Terry,

Classic.  fyi- JC & I are considering investing in a neighboring Wisconsin property, planning on developing courses by Nuzzo, DeVries, Clayton, Urbina and Pont and undercutting Sand Valley on price (yes we will be making our own craft beer and bratwurst)...One interesting side question is how does Tom and C&C's work evolve now that their design philosophies and aesthetic have become the status quo of modern GCA?

This is, in fact, not true.  No self respecting Michigander would ever consider owning a part of Wisconsin.

In any event, thanks to Tom Doak for being the only person to stay on topic in this thread.

[Jeff_Brauer]

JC,

While I know Kemper Sports told MK that he was nuts, I don't think its ever a huge risk to build on the ocean, at least in the US.  As exciting as Sand Valley site is, do enough golfers share the vision for a PV type course as they do for a PB/CPC type course?  If it would work anywhere, the high play states of MN and WI would be one of the best bets, though.

As to how this will be viewed, in the larger context of the current "1% of wealthy" political context, I wonder if the nicest courses will be viewed as even more "pure excess" than in any previous generation.  I know its existed in the past, but throw that notion out for discussion....why not?

Sorry for the OT diversion, (although you can argue that any ocean front course has potential to be great) but how many waterfront courses have failed financially?

[Terry Lavin]

"This is, in fact, not true.  No self respecting Michigander would ever consider owning a part of Wisconsin."

True, the lure of the "ruins tours" in No-mo-motors-city" is too powerful.

[Sven Nilsen]

Terry,

Classic.  fyi- JC & I are considering investing in a neighboring Wisconsin property, planning on developing courses by Nuzzo, DeVries, Clayton, Urbina and Pont and undercutting Sand Valley on price (yes we will be making our own craft beer and bratwurst)...One interesting side question is how does Tom and C&C's work evolve now that their design philosophies and aesthetic have become the status quo of modern GCA?

Jud:

What makes you think MK isn't considering any of names on your list for the second course at SV?

Sven

[Matt Schiffer]

"Also, I'm not sure using someone like Hanse is really "stretching the envelope."  The guy is doing the Olympics course....he has name value."

I think Mr. Lavin was referring to the selection of Dave Esler to design Pacific Gales, probably not a well-known name outside of the mid-west and certainly a bold move for a high-profile job.  Like Mr. Brauer said, given the apparent quality of the property (and certainly it's proximity to an already well known golf destination) the selection of a lesser known architect is probably less risky than than if the project had been in East Jabip.

More on-topic though, it seems to me that C&C's selection at Sand Valley versus what they're doing elsewhere in the world is only relevant to the small percentage of golfers that travel long distances to resort courses.  Wouldn't you think that the majority of Sand Valley's clientele will ultimately come from the more immediate area, where there are no other C&C courses?  For what percentage of their golfers will Sand Valley be competing against Bandon & Streamsong?

[Jud_T]

Terry,

Classic.  fyi- JC & I are considering investing in a neighboring Wisconsin property, planning on developing courses by Nuzzo, DeVries, Clayton, Urbina and Pont and undercutting Sand Valley on price (yes we will be making our own craft beer and bratwurst)...One interesting side question is how does Tom and C&C's work evolve now that their design philosophies and aesthetic have become the status quo of modern GCA?

Jud:

What makes you think MK isn't considering any of names on your list for the second course at SV?

Sven

Sven,

I'm sure he is and hope he hires one of 'em.  It might be easier to hire an up and comer when the place is firmly established and making money.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Sorry OT - deleted.

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