Thanks Tyler - I think Canada's own Rod Whitman may have done quite a bit of the shaping and construction management there - though I think it is the exception rather than the rule for C&C to build USGA greens it would not surprise me at all if they used that method at the Talking Stick site which is like a flat counter top made out of rock - Anthony's comment that the firmness is probably a function of lack of thatch I expect is spot on - and it will be interesting to see as Matthew notes, whether the firmness can be maintained or indeed whether an effort will be made to maintain the firmness, as I hear the club house staff have been getting a lot of questions and probably more negative than positive - it is just so out of the ordinary for the average player. The only greens I can recall that were at least as firm, if not firmer, after a few years of play, were those at Sagebrush - Prairie Club Dunes and Ballyneal probably comparable (though the firmness there is countered somewhat by the speed) but the expectations of players at places like that is so much different.