"Play it forward" is the wrong

[Garland Bayley]

... I lean well toward the Jaka view of this side discussion than the GJB view.
...

Jaka's view is that I am a handicap cheat. My view is that I am not. You think I'm a cheat too?

I have nothing to say about Jaka's views on handicap adjustment other than I trust Dr. Knuth to get it more right that Jaka.

I apologize for including your name in that comment. I don't know what it meant. I don't know if you are a cheat and I certainly didn't want to get in a discussion with you.

No worries Tim. The primary views of this thread are mine that the majority of players would have more fun playing match play with friends and that would be more conducive to growing the game vs. Patrick's view that making more birdies and pars from playing a shorter course would result in more players having more fun and be more conducive to growing the game. Jaka is just sitting by the wayside trying to maintain his reputation of being a provocateur by sniping about me being a cheater with a sandbagger handicap.

Right now we are sidetracked by an exercise where Patrick guides me around the course. Not sure how that will work out as he has me in the rough on the first tee shot of the day, while I wanted to be in the fairway.

Garland,

I am making the argument that honest golfers who want to play in club events can not play it forward because it will unfairly lower their handicap. I'm just lucky having a sandbagger on this thread proving my point.

John,

My course has Blue and White tees at 5933 and 5752 rated for men, and Red tees at 5308 rated for women. In the last 2 years I have played the whites exclusively, with the exception of the club championship a year ago when I had to play the blues. I play the whites, because that is where my buddies want to play from. Before the recession I had one friend that always wanted to play the blues (perhaps 5 times a year) so I would play there with him, but then he left the club when the recession hit. All these rounds have been posted. I have played the red tees a couple of times with Korean lady friends, but did not post scores as they are not rated for me. One time I talked my buddies into the winner picks the tees, and I would do the USGA adjustment based on distance for posting. They didn't like that. They especially didn't like that I could move us to the reds and take OB left out of play for my slice.

So you see, my handicap is based on playing it forward, and until I played with the seniors this year from the whites in the club championship, I had to move back to the blues to play the major tournament of the year.

So you are so "lucky" as to have the exact opposite of what you claim for an example.

[Michael Moore]

Birdies and pars are just nonsense noise that a very small percentage of golfers worry about. People should play match play and get rid of this me against the course nonsense. It's me against my friend in a friendly match that culminates in the loser forking over a token amount and the winner buying refreshments in the clubhouse.

Furthermore play if forward is the wrong motto, because it is based on the ignorance of a few players that GIR has some meaning to. The high handicapper (average player) can play it forward and have little or no effect on GIR.

I'll bite on these humorless assertions.

I am on the board of a state golf association that is absolutely thriving. One of our key attractions is the weekend event, a thirty-stop tour that draws from a field of 1600 members and hands out more than $100,000 in credit every year.

The logistics of these events prevent match play. Actually, not one of our members wants to drive 50 miles to play a match when they could be competing against 150 people. Our golfers want to join up with three friends, post a nice low best-of-four, get their hopes up regarding a skin or a pin, and meet up with everybody afterwards for lunch.

Course setup is hugely important to the success of these events, and it is one of the most bitterly debated issues within the association and among our competitors. The guys who have the time and the money hit it 200 yards and do not want to spend the day hitting their third shot from 20 yards. The guys who are competing for player of the year and a spot on the USGA State or Tri-State teams hit it 300 yards and do not want to spend the day hitting their second shot from 40 yards. Going below 5900 yards or above 6200 yards is generally unpopular.

These are real events, with real golfers, for real money. Our constituents love stroke play, love greens in regulation, love birdies, and most of all, love playing together as a team.

[A.G._Crockett]

... I lean well toward the Jaka view of this side discussion than the GJB view.
...

Jaka's view is that I am a handicap cheat. My view is that I am not. You think I'm a cheat too?

I have nothing to say about Jaka's views on handicap adjustment other than I trust Dr. Knuth to get it more right that Jaka.

I apologize for including your name in that comment. I don't know what it meant. I don't know if you are a cheat and I certainly didn't want to get in a discussion with you.

No worries Tim. The primary views of this thread are mine that the majority of players would have more fun playing match play with friends and that would be more conducive to growing the game vs. Patrick's view that making more birdies and pars from playing a shorter course would result in more players having more fun and be more conducive to growing the game. Jaka is just sitting by the wayside trying to maintain his reputation of being a provocateur by sniping about me being a cheater with a sandbagger handicap.

Right now we are sidetracked by an exercise where Patrick guides me around the course. Not sure how that will work out as he has me in the rough on the first tee shot of the day, while I wanted to be in the fairway.

Garland,

I am making the argument that honest golfers who want to play in club events can not play it forward because it will unfairly lower their handicap. I'm just lucky having a sandbagger on this thread proving my point.

John,

My course has Blue and White tees at 5933 and 5752 rated for men, and Red tees at 5308 rated for women. In the last 2 years I have played the whites exclusively, with the exception of the club championship a year ago when I had to play the blues. I play the whites, because that is where my buddies want to play from. Before the recession I had one friend that always wanted to play the blues (perhaps 5 times a year) so I would play there with him, but then he left the club when the recession hit. All these rounds have been posted. I have played the red tees a couple of times with Korean lady friends, but did not post scores as they are not rated for me. One time I talked my buddies into the winner picks the tees, and I would do the USGA adjustment based on distance for posting. They didn't like that. They especially didn't like that I could move us to the reds and take OB left out of play for my slice.

So you see, my handicap is based on playing it forward, and until I played with the seniors this year from the whites in the club championship, I had to move back to the blues to play the major tournament of the year.

So you are so "lucky" as to have the exact opposite of what you claim for an example.

Garland,
Imagine my confusion.  In this post, you are pointing out to Jaka that you are something of a case study in PIF, if not an advocate. 

But through most of this lengthy thread you have been arguing AGAINST PIF with Patrick.

What am I missing?

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
With all due respect, your home course is less than 6000 yd. from the back tees, isn't it?  That you only hit driver 8 times actually proves Pat's point quite nicely. You are, in effect, already playing it forward; your course is 600 yd. shorter that the forward tees at Pat's course, I believe.  That you can play bogey golf, which isn't terrible golf by any stretch, without hitting driver on a majority of the holes on your course is exactly what Pat is advocating others might try to enjoy the game more.  I know that deep down you understand this.

With all due respect, Pat's point is that people will enjoy the game more by playing it forward and making more birdies and pars. My point is that people should forget the birdies and pars and play match play with their buddies for more enjoyment. From what I have seen on this thread is a large number of low handicappers (after all that is primarily what this website is made up with) agreeing with Pat that more birdies and pars are more fun, and the single person on the thread that plays as poorly as I agreeing with me. Well guess what. In the golf population at large, we poor players vastly out number you sticks. So the fact that I play forward and only hit driver 8 times a round proves nothing about the topic at hand. The fact that I play match play with my friends every time out might prove something, but not hitting driver only 8 times.


I'm sure that you have some statistical reason for say that hitting your driver more than 8 times on a 6000 yd. course would double your handicap, so no need to get into that.  

I don't keep any stats. The reasons are things like OB left, driver puts my ball on severe slopes, driver leaves me a half wedge instead of a full swing, etc.

That has not been my experience with 6000 yd. courses at all, and though that would be truly some unusual/weird GCA, we'll let that statement go.  But the fact is that TIF and Pat are advocating a very simple change in the way the game is played (TIF) while you are advocating a complete change (really several changes!) in the fundamental way golf is played.  

I'm advocating going back to the roots of the game, and playing match play. I don't see how that is a "complete change".

I'm still trying to get over these two quotes from your first post on the first page, which form the essence of your argument if I understand it:

"Birdies and pars are just nonsense noise that a very small percentage of golfers worry about. People should play match play and get rid of this me against the course nonsense."

"Furthermore play if forward is the wrong motto, because it is based on the ignorance of a few players that GIR has some meaning to. The high handicapper (average player) can play it forward and have little or no effect on GIR."
  
  

You want things to get over? How about this one from Patrick?
"I know, that even a "Supreme" moron would agree that golfers, irrespective of handicap, will hit more GIR on a 5,400 yard course than they will on a 7,400 yard course."

What we are talking about here is "teeing it forward", not moving two thousand yards forward. We are talking about moving forward two to three hundred yards. For high handicappers like me and my friends, that will not give us even one more GIR per round. Perhaps .2 GIR per round, but nothing significant that will make us enjoy the game any more than we already do. However, if we were to concentrate on our scores, we would be more likely to give up the game than to continue.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
Imagine my confusion.  In this post, you are pointing out to Jaka that you are something of a case study in PIF, if not an advocate. 

But through most of this lengthy thread you have been arguing AGAINST PIF with Patrick.

What am I missing?

No, I am advocating a social game. I don't care where I play it from. I play white with those who want to play white. I play blue with those who want to play blue. I play from 7700 yards when Rich Choi says we're short on players for the US Open preview, won't you please come play with us. An event by the way at which a low single digit handicapper said to me "I have to admit, you have more fun playing golf than I do."

[Garland Bayley]

Birdies and pars are just nonsense noise that a very small percentage of golfers worry about. People should play match play and get rid of this me against the course nonsense. It's me against my friend in a friendly match that culminates in the loser forking over a token amount and the winner buying refreshments in the clubhouse.

Furthermore play if forward is the wrong motto, because it is based on the ignorance of a few players that GIR has some meaning to. The high handicapper (average player) can play it forward and have little or no effect on GIR.

I'll bite on these humorless assertions.

I am on the board of a state golf association that is absolutely thriving. One of our key attractions is the weekend event, a thirty-stop tour that draws from a field of 1600 members and hands out more than $100,000 in credit every year.

The logistics of these events prevent match play. Actually, not one of our members wants to drive 50 miles to play a match when they could be competing against 150 people. Our golfers want to join up with three friends, post a nice low best-of-four, get their hopes up regarding a skin or a pin, and meet up with everybody afterwards for lunch.

Course setup is hugely important to the success of these events, and it is one of the most bitterly debated issues within the association and among our competitors. The guys who have the time and the money hit it 200 yards and do not want to spend the day hitting their third shot from 20 yards. The guys who are competing for player of the year and a spot on the USGA State or Tri-State teams hit it 300 yards and do not want to spend the day hitting their second shot from 40 yards. Going below 5900 yards or above 6200 yards is generally unpopular.

These are real events, with real golfers, for real money. Our constituents love stroke play, love greens in regulation, love birdies, and most of all, love playing together as a team.

And when I retire from my day job and start the Portland match play series, we'll compare notes.

[John Kavanaugh]

... I lean well toward the Jaka view of this side discussion than the GJB view.
...

Jaka's view is that I am a handicap cheat. My view is that I am not. You think I'm a cheat too?

I have nothing to say about Jaka's views on handicap adjustment other than I trust Dr. Knuth to get it more right that Jaka.

I apologize for including your name in that comment. I don't know what it meant. I don't know if you are a cheat and I certainly didn't want to get in a discussion with you.

No worries Tim. The primary views of this thread are mine that the majority of players would have more fun playing match play with friends and that would be more conducive to growing the game vs. Patrick's view that making more birdies and pars from playing a shorter course would result in more players having more fun and be more conducive to growing the game. Jaka is just sitting by the wayside trying to maintain his reputation of being a provocateur by sniping about me being a cheater with a sandbagger handicap.

Right now we are sidetracked by an exercise where Patrick guides me around the course. Not sure how that will work out as he has me in the rough on the first tee shot of the day, while I wanted to be in the fairway.

Garland,

I am making the argument that honest golfers who want to play in club events can not play it forward because it will unfairly lower their handicap. I'm just lucky having a sandbagger on this thread proving my point.

John,

My course has Blue and White tees at 5933 and 5752 rated for men, and Red tees at 5308 rated for women. In the last 2 years I have played the whites exclusively, with the exception of the club championship a year ago when I had to play the blues. I play the whites, because that is where my buddies want to play from. Before the recession I had one friend that always wanted to play the blues (perhaps 5 times a year) so I would play there with him, but then he left the club when the recession hit. All these rounds have been posted. I have played the red tees a couple of times with Korean lady friends, but did not post scores as they are not rated for me. One time I talked my buddies into the winner picks the tees, and I would do the USGA adjustment based on distance for posting. They didn't like that. They especially didn't like that I could move us to the reds and take OB left out of play for my slice.

So you see, my handicap is based on playing it forward, and until I played with the seniors this year from the whites in the club championship, I had to move back to the blues to play the major tournament of the year.

So you are so "lucky" as to have the exact opposite of what you claim for an example.

Garland,

You have established a 22 handicap from the up tees and then go out and make 3 consecutive natural birdies during your club championship.  You have convicted yourself as a sandbagger by your own actions.  The trial is over.  The only thing left are the victim impact statements.

These friends that you claim to play with.  Do you guys play straight up or by handicap?

[A.G._Crockett]

Garland,
I cannot for the life of me see how you can seriously contend that PIF does not result in more GIR's.  

There is a rule of thumb in golf equipment called the "24/36 Rule" I believe.  The gist of it is that the average golfer struggles to hit any club with less that 24 degrees or loft and/or a shaft of 36" or longer, which is roughly the modern 4 or 5 iron.  If you reduce the number of times that ANY golfer hits those clubs, you improve his/her accuracy, which means more GIR's.  It is pointless to argue otherwise.

Holes on every golf course in the country are handicapped based on the need of a bogey golfer to get a stroke to equalize on the hole.  The single most pertinent factor in that is the length of the hole.  Good, middling, or bad, any golfer will get to the green in fewer strokes from closer than from farther, all other things equal.  Again, it is pointless to argue otherwise.

And that is why YOU only hit driver 8 times, by your own account!  YOU say that if you hit driver more, you bring things into play that in effect would prevent you from getting to the green in the smallest possible number of strokes; sidehill lies, partial shots, OB, and so on.  

And lastly, advocating a return to matchplay IS a fundamental change.  Saying that it is going back to the way the game was originally played is also pointless; the game was also originally played with hickory shafts and balls stuffed with feathers.  There is just no matchplay ethic in this country, and there isn't going to be.  Railing against stoke play and PIF on that basis is a complete red herring and a non-starter as an alternative.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

You have established a 22 handicap from the up tees and then go out and make 3 consecutive natural birdies during your club championship.  You have convicted yourself as a sandbagger by your own actions.  The trial is over.  The only thing left are the victim impact statements.

These friends that you claim to play with.  Do you guys play straight up or by handicap?

John,

How's your health? Have you tried ginko bilboa?

I did not make 3 consecutive birdies in my club championship.

I made 3 consecutive birdies one time in nearly 50 years of playing golf. Saying that makes me a sandbagger is like saying any high handicapper that has a once in a life time event like a hole in one is a sandbagger. The birdies were not a result of good golf, but of lucking in two long putts, and hitting an 8 iron weak and thin that just happened to roll down the hill to the green finishing 10 feet directly below the hole, which is a putt I can make without a lot of luck.

[Nigel Islam]

... I lean well toward the Jaka view of this side discussion than the GJB view.
...

Jaka's view is that I am a handicap cheat. My view is that I am not. You think I'm a cheat too?

I have nothing to say about Jaka's views on handicap adjustment other than I trust Dr. Knuth to get it more right that Jaka.

I apologize for including your name in that comment. I don't know what it meant. I don't know if you are a cheat and I certainly didn't want to get in a discussion with you.

No worries Tim. The primary views of this thread are mine that the majority of players would have more fun playing match play with friends and that would be more conducive to growing the game vs. Patrick's view that making more birdies and pars from playing a shorter course would result in more players having more fun and be more conducive to growing the game. Jaka is just sitting by the wayside trying to maintain his reputation of being a provocateur by sniping about me being a cheater with a sandbagger handicap.

Right now we are sidetracked by an exercise where Patrick guides me around the course. Not sure how that will work out as he has me in the rough on the first tee shot of the day, while I wanted to be in the fairway.

Garland,

I am making the argument that honest golfers who want to play in club events can not play it forward because it will unfairly lower their handicap. I'm just lucky having a sandbagger on this thread proving my point.

John,

My course has Blue and White tees at 5933 and 5752 rated for men, and Red tees at 5308 rated for women. In the last 2 years I have played the whites exclusively, with the exception of the club championship a year ago when I had to play the blues. I play the whites, because that is where my buddies want to play from. Before the recession I had one friend that always wanted to play the blues (perhaps 5 times a year) so I would play there with him, but then he left the club when the recession hit. All these rounds have been posted. I have played the red tees a couple of times with Korean lady friends, but did not post scores as they are not rated for me. One time I talked my buddies into the winner picks the tees, and I would do the USGA adjustment based on distance for posting. They didn't like that. They especially didn't like that I could move us to the reds and take OB left out of play for my slice.

So you see, my handicap is based on playing it forward, and until I played with the seniors this year from the whites in the club championship, I had to move back to the blues to play the major tournament of the year.

So you are so "lucky" as to have the exact opposite of what you claim for an example.

Garland,

You have established a 22 handicap from the up tees and then go out and make 3 consecutive natural birdies during your club championship.  You have convicted yourself as a sandbagger by your own actions.  The trial is over.  The only thing left are the victim impact statements.

These friends that you claim to play with.  Do you guys play straight up or by handicap?

JK, that's the problem with tournaments based on handicaps or even group matches. If one person claims to be a 15 and is really a 9 then anyone else who has designs on winning must similarly "massage" their handicap. If all 4 players in a regular group have done this then it doesn't hurt anyone until they go outside the system. Handicapping is such a flawed system.

[Garland Bayley]

A.G.,

I'm happy that you 5.6s like your medal play. I'm just saying it is not the way for 25.6s to go.

My friends and I equalize or matches by playing using handicaps. Of course, when one of us has our handicap go up we get ribbed a lot about being sandbaggers.

[John Kavanaugh]

"I guess I had another best as I birdied three in a row (gross) for the only time in my life in our club match play."

Garland, I have told a few lies myself.  I sympathize with how difficult it is to keep your story straight.

[John Kavanaugh]

Match play and sandbagging are dirty lovers.  The bagger I kicked out or our regular match play game would pick up on any par three he had lost and post a 7.  You see under ESC he could post a 7 on any hole.  He rarely posted anything less than a seven on any hole with a lost ball. I would yell at him to finish the damn hole and he would play the fast play card.  He forced me to play the find another game card.

I don't know how a bagger ever finds a game.  Our worst bagger at the club now is a professional gambler currently competing on the mini-tours.  He keeps a 1 handicap for credibility in his Vegas money games.  His favorite ploy is to shoot a 78 during the first round of local tournaments and then sucker in the rubes for big money games on Sunday.  When I pointed out to the pro shop that he had not posted any of his mini tour event scores or any score for three months the shop gave him a zero handicap.  The only thing I could do is choose not to play in the event.  He went on to win by 10 shots.

[Garland Bayley]

Match play and sandbagging are dirty lovers.  The bagger I kicked out or our regular match play game would pick up on any par three he had lost and post a 7.  You see under ESC he could post a 7 on any hole.  He rarely posted anything less than a seven on any hole with a lost ball. I would yell at him to finish the damn hole and he would play the fast play card.  He forced me to play the find another game card.

I don't know how a bagger ever finds a game.  Our worst bagger at the club now is a professional gambler currently competing on the mini-tours.  He keeps a 1 handicap for credibility in his Vegas money games.  His favorite ploy is to shoot a 78 during the first round of local tournaments and then sucker in the rubes for big money games on Sunday.  When I pointed out to the pro shop that he had not posted any of his mini tour event scores or any score for three months the shop gave him a zero handicap.  The only thing I could do is choose not to play in the event.  He went on to win by 10 shots.

I'm sorry that people are so dishonest in Indiana. No one has ever kicked me out of a regular game for sandbagging. They might consider kicking me out for being obnoxious, but not for sandbagging. Perhaps if Indiana would get its act together so people could see their scores on ghin.com, the problem might be alleviated, and I might even help you find my scores.

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G.,

I'm happy that you 5.6s like your medal play. I'm just saying it is not the way for 25.6s to go.

My friends and I equalize or matches by playing using handicaps. Of course, when one of us has our handicap go up we get ribbed a lot about being sandbaggers.

Garland,
It has nothing to do with handicaps.  Zero.  It has to do with the prevailing culture.  Matchplay is not the prevailing culture in golf, it hasn't been for many decades, and it never will be again.  You can advocate for matchplay all you like, but golfers of all handicaps will continue to play stroke play formats.  I know you know that.

And in any event, neither matchplay nor handicaps have anything to do with PIF.  Zero.

[Nigel Islam]

A.G.,

I'm happy that you 5.6s like your medal play. I'm just saying it is not the way for 25.6s to go.

My friends and I equalize or matches by playing using handicaps. Of course, when one of us has our handicap go up we get ribbed a lot about being sandbaggers.

Garland, you can't get a handicap without keeping score.

[Garland Bayley]

"I guess I had another best as I birdied three in a row (gross) for the only time in my life in our club match play."

Garland, I have told a few lies myself.  I sympathize with how difficult it is to keep your story straight.

John,

Our club championship is medal play. We have another series of lesser tournaments that I often play in. Unfortunately, all my hypothetical "sandbagging" did not allow me to win my flight in our match play, and I made the sandbagger that beat me in the match play a part of my regular group because he is so fun to play with even though it is clear he is a sandbagger, because he beat your choice for the ultimate sandbagger.

[John Kavanaugh]

Match play and sandbagging are dirty lovers.  The bagger I kicked out or our regular match play game would pick up on any par three he had lost and post a 7.  You see under ESC he could post a 7 on any hole.  He rarely posted anything less than a seven on any hole with a lost ball. I would yell at him to finish the damn hole and he would play the fast play card.  He forced me to play the find another game card.

I don't know how a bagger ever finds a game.  Our worst bagger at the club now is a professional gambler currently competing on the mini-tours.  He keeps a 1 handicap for credibility in his Vegas money games.  His favorite ploy is to shoot a 78 during the first round of local tournaments and then sucker in the rubes for big money games on Sunday.  When I pointed out to the pro shop that he had not posted any of his mini tour event scores or any score for three months the shop gave him a zero handicap.  The only thing I could do is choose not to play in the event.  He went on to win by 10 shots.

I'm sorry that people are so dishonest in Indiana. No one has ever kicked me out of a regular game for sandbagging. They might consider kicking me out for being obnoxious, but not for sandbagging. Perhaps if Indiana would get its act together so people could see their scores on ghin.com, the problem might be alleviated, and I might even help you find my scores.

One thing that upsets me about this site and the world in general is that people talk behind the backs of others and then demonize people like me who tell people to their face what they think.  Be assured Garland, you get fewer invites because you are a known sandbagger.  I don't know why more people don't tell you.

News flash.  Kinda like love, having a game and losing it is better than never having a game at all.

[Nigel Islam]

Match play and sandbagging are dirty lovers.  The bagger I kicked out or our regular match play game would pick up on any par three he had lost and post a 7.  You see under ESC he could post a 7 on any hole.  He rarely posted anything less than a seven on any hole with a lost ball. I would yell at him to finish the damn hole and he would play the fast play card.  He forced me to play the find another game card.

I don't know how a bagger ever finds a game.  Our worst bagger at the club now is a professional gambler currently competing on the mini-tours.  He keeps a 1 handicap for credibility in his Vegas money games.  His favorite ploy is to shoot a 78 during the first round of local tournaments and then sucker in the rubes for big money games on Sunday.  When I pointed out to the pro shop that he had not posted any of his mini tour event scores or any score for three months the shop gave him a zero handicap.  The only thing I could do is choose not to play in the event.  He went on to win by 10 shots.

I'm sorry that people are so dishonest in Indiana. No one has ever kicked me out of a regular game for sandbagging. They might consider kicking me out for being obnoxious, but not for sandbagging. Perhaps if Indiana would get its act together so people could see their scores on ghin.com, the problem might be alleviated, and I might even help you find my scores.

If you think this is just an Indiana issue, then I think you might be lying to yourself.  I suspect that members at JKs club come from Kentucky and Illinois as well.

[Garland Bayley]

A.G.,

I'm happy that you 5.6s like your medal play. I'm just saying it is not the way for 25.6s to go.

My friends and I equalize or matches by playing using handicaps. Of course, when one of us has our handicap go up we get ribbed a lot about being sandbaggers.

Garland, you can't get a handicap without keeping score.

Nigel,

Haven't you read the handicap manual. It tells you exactly how to post scores from your match play rounds.
I got beat one year in our match play by a player that got the scorecard from the pro to keep the score. At the end of the round, I reminded him to turn in the scorecard for handicap purposes, to which he said he couldn't, because all he had kept track of was the hole winners. I said no matter, I have all the scores. We'll just write them on the official scorecard, sign it, and turn it in. For some reason, that made him mad as hell.

John, could it be that he was a sandbagger? Shooting scores in match play that didn't match his handicap record?

Funny thing was he was quoting the golf rulebook to me the whole round like he thought I was an ignoramus or something. Of course you guys no I'm an ignoramus, so know that wouldn't teach me anything.

[Nigel Islam]

Garland, you still have to keep track of the score to post a score in match play too.

[A.G._Crockett]

Garland,
I have NEVER thought you to be an ignoramus.

I DO think you have an excessive fondness for being argumentative, possibly above all else.  Otherwise, why would a veritable poster boy for PIF be arguing against it with patently absurd statements?

[Garland Bayley]

A.G.,

I know that group events are done expediciously with stroke play.

However, match play happens a lot a clubs like mine and apparently John's, because he assumed our club championship is match play.

If Bob Huntley were to invite you to play CPC with him and asked you to play wolf with the members of the foursome, would you turn him down, because you are a medal play player? Why do you suppose the skins, nassaus, wolf, etc. are popular games? Because they are medal play games?

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, you still have to keep track of the score to post a score in match play too.

I'm don't get how you misunderstood "I got beat one year in our match play by a player that got the scorecard from the pro to keep the score. At the end of the round, I reminded him to turn in the scorecard for handicap purposes, to which he said he couldn't, because all he had kept track of was the hole winners. I said no matter, I have all the scores. We'll just write them on the official scorecard, sign it, and turn it in."

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
I cannot for the life of me see how you can seriously contend that PIF does not result in more GIR's.  

The course rating difference between the blues and whites at my club is .8 strokes. A guess may mean at my handicap it will be a little more than a stroke difference. Does that mean I will get 1 more GIR by moving from blue to white? It means I will be able to get enough closer on average to gain a stroke. As I wrote above, that is perhaps .2 GIR. I cannot for the life of me see how your seriously can dispute that.

When it comes to enjoying golf, that is and insignificant difference!

There is a rule of thumb in golf equipment called the "24/36 Rule" I believe.  The gist of it is that the average golfer struggles to hit any club with less that 24 degrees or loft and/or a shaft of 36" or longer, which is roughly the modern 4 or 5 iron.  If you reduce the number of times that ANY golfer hits those clubs, you improve his/her accuracy, which means more GIR's.  It is pointless to argue otherwise.

So if I move back a tee, I will hit my 4 or 5 iron one more time in a round. How will that significantly decrease my GIR? Or, like argument for moving forward.

Holes on every golf course in the country are handicapped based on the need of a bogey golfer to get a stroke to equalize on the hole.  The single most pertinent factor in that is the length of the hole.  Good, middling, or bad, any golfer will get to the green in fewer strokes from closer than from farther, all other things equal.  Again, it is pointless to argue otherwise.

There is a HUGE difference between getting to the proximity of the green in fewer strokes than getting ON the green.

And that is why YOU only hit driver 8 times, by your own account!  YOU say that if you hit driver more, you bring things into play that in effect would prevent you from getting to the green in the smallest possible number of strokes; sidehill lies, partial shots, OB, and so on.  

And lastly, advocating a return to matchplay IS a fundamental change.  Saying that it is going back to the way the game was originally played is also pointless; the game was also originally played with hickory shafts and balls stuffed with feathers.  There is just no matchplay ethic in this country, and there isn't going to be.  Railing against stoke play and PIF on that basis is a complete red herring and a non-starter as an alternative.