[Garland Bayley]

Either I know nothing or you missed that I'm a lefty and my fade would be turning into the left down to right slope.

[Garland Bayley]

With the high bunker on left, I think I pull 7 wood and lay up short of bunkers.

[John Kavanaugh]

With the high bunker on left, I think I pull 7 wood and lay up short of bunkers.

When you play in matches differently than how you established your handicap you are a cheat.  The above are not the words of a true 22.

[Patrick_Mucci]

...
As to your aim, there's where you're aiming and where you think you're aiming, so, until you get up on the tee and are ready to hit the ball, other than telling you to look where the pin is, and to favor the left side of the fairway...

I thought you were familiar with the bogey and worse player.

I am.

The bogey or worse player could give a rats ass where the pin is.

And that's EXACTLY why I can help him lower his score.
You can't approach the first green from the left fairway/rough, it's an impossible shot, even for a good golfer.

Awareness, in terms of the formulation of tactics to counter the architectural obstacles is a critical element that you and your bogey and worse golfing friends neither recognize nor comprehend.  It's called course management 101.   Armed with my brain, even a lousy golfer like you can improve his scores.

You think the bogey or worse golfer can "favor the left side of the fairway" on demand?

It's about "margins of error"

You wanted to aim at the right bunker, clearly a death wish tactic that only a "supreme" moron would employ, unless of course, with your fade, you enjoy playing out of the woods.

By aiming to the left fairway/rough, the golfer will avoid the woods and bunker, hit their second shot to the right fairway/rough, and have an unimpeded approach at the optimal angle into that green, allowing the golfer to have a chance to make a par, or at worse a bogey, versus the double or triple that your strategy would produce.

It seems to me that the bogey or worse golfer needs to simply consider how he is going to get the ball in play.

That more than implies a limited intellect.

For 45+ years one of our group is a 18+ handicap, a doctor, who happens to be a fearless and great putter.
He also understood course management from playing with a number of guys in our group who were low handicaps.
He was, and remains a ferocious competitor, rarely making a mistake, and cleverly tacking his way around the golf course.

He gets it.  He's gotten it for decades and was always a great partner.  He also listened and learned, something you seem reluctant to do.

How do you think I beat Kalen?

Because I wasn't caddying for him  

He had delusions of grandeur and finding the correct position and such nonsense.
I kept the ball in play as well as I could and he ended up in places unmentionable.

What's his handicap ?
You're a 22, so who gave and who received shots, or did you play even.

I can't comment on a round I didn't witness, but the next time you play, have Kalen call me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Either I know nothing or you missed that I'm a lefty and my fade would be turning into the left down to right slope.

Yeah, I forgot that, but, I still wouldn't have you aim down the right side.
Center to left center.

Even if you drive in the left rough, you can hit your second to the right front of the green and have a benign approach.,

[Garland Bayley]

With the high bunker on left, I think I pull 7 wood and lay up short of bunkers.

When you play in matches differently than how you established your handicap you are a cheat.  The above are not the words of a true 22.

With 10 par 4s and 3 par 5s, I only pull driver on 8 holes on my home course. Are you saying that I should pull it more often and be a 27 handicap?

[Garland Bayley]

...
As to your aim, there's where you're aiming and where you think you're aiming, so, until you get up on the tee and are ready to hit the ball, other than telling you to look where the pin is, and to favor the left side of the fairway...

I thought you were familiar with the bogey and worse player.

I am.

The bogey or worse player could give a rats ass where the pin is.

And that's EXACTLY why I can help him lower his score.
You can't approach the first green from the left fairway/rough, it's an impossible shot, even for a good golfer.

Why are we worried about the pin if our concern is whether or not we can approach the green? Remember the ball is above my feet on this fairway if as described it slopes down to the right.

Awareness, in terms of the formulation of tactics to counter the architectural obstacles is a critical element that you and your bogey and worse golfing friends neither recognize nor comprehend.  It's called course management 101.   Armed with my brain, even a lousy golfer like you can improve his scores.

You think the bogey or worse golfer can "favor the left side of the fairway" on demand?

It's about "margins of error"

You wanted to aim at the right bunker, clearly a death wish tactic that only a "supreme" moron would employ, unless of course, with your fade, you enjoy playing out of the woods.

Lefty remember.

By aiming to the left fairway/rough, the golfer will avoid the woods and bunker, hit their second shot to the right fairway/rough, and have an unimpeded approach at the optimal angle into that green, allowing the golfer to have a chance to make a par, or at worse a bogey, versus the double or triple that your strategy would produce.

It seems to me that the bogey or worse golfer needs to simply consider how he is going to get the ball in play.

That more than implies a limited intellect.

For 45+ years one of our group is a 18+ handicap, a doctor, who happens to be a fearless and great putter.

Is he an 18+ handicapper because he is distance challenged? Or direction challenged? I and the guys I play with are direction challenged except for the 8 handicapper.

He also understood course management from playing with a number of guys in our group who were low handicaps.
He was, and remains a ferocious competitor, rarely making a mistake, and cleverly tacking his way around the golf course.

He gets it.  He's gotten it for decades and was always a great partner.  He also listened and learned, something you seem reluctant to do.

How do you think I beat Kalen?

Because I wasn't caddying for him  

He had delusions of grandeur and finding the correct position and such nonsense.
I kept the ball in play as well as I could and he ended up in places unmentionable.

What's his handicap ?
You're a 22, so who gave and who received shots, or did you play even.

I can't comment on a round I didn't witness, but the next time you play, have Kalen call me.

[Garland Bayley]

If I aim center or left side like you say, with driver I'm either in the bunker on the parallel hole (230 yards) or I hit the tree to the left of the fairway (220 yards).

I'm still thinking 7 wood. Are you in?

[Garland Bayley]

...
What's his handicap ?
You're a 22, so who gave and who received shots, or did you play even.
...

He claimed a 16 (not having an official handicap) when he went to Kings Putter. I offered him strokes, but he declined and we played even.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If I aim center or left side like you say, with driver I'm either in the bunker on the parallel hole (230 yards) or I hit the tree to the left of the fairway (220 yards).

You stated that you faded the ball, you didn't state that you sliced the ball, and there is a significant difference.

You can't reach the bunker on the 9th hole.
And, you're hitting from a tee 45 feet or more above the DZ

That's a wide fairway, probably close to 45 yards and there's plenty of room in the left rough

I'm still thinking 7 wood. Are you in?

7-Wood off the tee is NOT the shot.

That's why you stink ?

You can't discern the visual architectural clues and formulate the proper tactical plan to play the course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

...
What's his handicap ?
You're a 22, so who gave and who received shots, or did you play even.
...

He claimed a 16 (not having an official handicap) when he went to Kings Putter. I offered him strokes, but he declined and we played even.

That's like a fellow GCA.com'er, John Kirk, a nice fellow I hosted at GCGC.
He wanted to have a match, stated that he was a 1, but, that due to my local knowledge, with me being a 4 or 5, that we should play even.
So, being a gracious host, we did.

[Garland Bayley]

If I aim center or left side like you say, with driver I'm either in the bunker on the parallel hole (230 yards) or I hit the tree to the left of the fairway (220 yards).

You stated that you faded the ball, you didn't state that you sliced the ball, and there is a significant difference.

"fade or worse" It's the first swing of the day, almost guaranteed to be the slice.

You can't reach the bunker on the 9th hole.
And, you're hitting from a tee 45 feet or more above the DZ

Ok, that's information I can't see from pictures or above. Helps alleviate my worry that if I don't catch it well that I won't carry the bunker. Although I don't know why you think I can carry the bunker (215 yards) but not reach the bunker on 9 (230 yards) from the middle of that largest teeing area.

That's a wide fairway, probably close to 45 yards and there's plenty of room in the left rough

I'm still thinking 7 wood. Are you in?

7-Wood off the tee is NOT the shot.

That's why you stink ?

You can't discern the visual architectural clues and formulate the proper tactical plan to play the course.

So it seems your choice is for me to hit 8 iron from the rough as opposed to the 9 wood from the fairway like I was thinking to lay up to the green. This is going to save me strokes?

[Joe Leenheer]

I'm 6 pages late but here's my 2 dollars worth….

This past fall when my club started to get a bit wet (and cart were restricted to paths), I went out and started playing from our Junior Tees (maybe 1600 yards for 9 holes).  Played super fast, didn't have to chase balls all over the place on soggy turf, and I learned a lot about my game.

On the Front 9 I can drive 1 of the par 5's, all the par 4's (most with irons), and the par 3's all play from inside of 30 yards.

6 under is the best I could do (using the regular par for the hole).  I got so hooked the first time I did it, I played my next 4 rounds from the forward tees.  

It's fun and I think it's just as challenging as playing from any tee.  

Pat…totally agree that they got the name all wrong.  

I don't think the program will really take off, but I wish everyone would try it especially on a course you play frequently.  Even if you just move up one tee or if you can check you manhood in the pro shop and tee if from the forwards.  Let me know how pissed you are when you make a bogey!

[John Kirk]

That's like a fellow GCA.com'er, John Kirk, a nice fellow I hosted at GCGC.
He wanted to have a match, stated that he was a 1, but, that due to my local knowledge, with me being a 4 or 5, that we should play even.
So, being a gracious host, we did

At my home course, Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow), moving up to the white tees (6000 yards or so) puts the bunkers and narrow parts of fairways in the wrong places on several holes, so that I have to club down off the tee.  As a result, I don't like playing from there, and I have trouble shooting a good score.  For me, maybe my handicap stays the same if I play the course short, but it's just not fun for me.  Fortunately, they just recalibrated tee markers.  We now have a black set (7000), a blue set (6750), a green set (6300-6400) and a white set (5900) of tees for men, as well as 2-3 setups for women, so players of all ages and abilities, in different seasons of the year, can have fun.

[Garland Bayley]

Patrick,

I just noticed your post about being a bogey golfer when you had cancer. Although it is unfortunate that you had to go through that, I suspect that if you were to play a short par 3 course with me you would have been a par golfer, and I still would have been a bogey golfer.

[Garland Bayley]

... I lean well toward the Jaka view of this side discussion than the GJB view.
...

Jaka's view is that I am a handicap cheat. My view is that I am not. You think I'm a cheat too?

I have nothing to say about Jaka's views on handicap adjustment other than I trust Dr. Knuth to get it more right that Jaka.

I apologize for including your name in that comment. I don't know what it meant. I don't know if you are a cheat and I certainly didn't want to get in a discussion with you.

No worries Tim. The primary views of this thread are mine that the majority of players would have more fun playing match play with friends and that would be more conducive to growing the game vs. Patrick's view that making more birdies and pars from playing a shorter course would result in more players having more fun and be more conducive to growing the game. Jaka is just sitting by the wayside trying to maintain his reputation of being a provocateur by sniping about me being a cheater with a sandbagger handicap.

Right now we are sidetracked by an exercise where Patrick guides me around the course. Not sure how that will work out as he has me in the rough on the first tee shot of the day, while I wanted to be in the fairway.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland mentions beating Kalen more often that Johnny Miller mentions his 63 at Oakmont.

That's because he is a very good natured upbeat sole that can handle it. You don't want me mentioning the soreheads I beat do you?
And, I'm sure you don't want to hear about the 114 I shot losing to Joe Perches and Pete Lavallee.

Have you seen the threads about the GRUDGE MATCH, and the GRUDGE MATCH SEQUEL? I hope they were instructive to any high handicap followers the website may have.

[Garland Bayley]

...How do you think I beat Kalen?

Because I wasn't caddying for him  
...

He didn't need you, he had Anthony Gray helping him.

[John Kavanaugh]

... I lean well toward the Jaka view of this side discussion than the GJB view.
...

Jaka's view is that I am a handicap cheat. My view is that I am not. You think I'm a cheat too?

I have nothing to say about Jaka's views on handicap adjustment other than I trust Dr. Knuth to get it more right that Jaka.

I apologize for including your name in that comment. I don't know what it meant. I don't know if you are a cheat and I certainly didn't want to get in a discussion with you.

No worries Tim. The primary views of this thread are mine that the majority of players would have more fun playing match play with friends and that would be more conducive to growing the game vs. Patrick's view that making more birdies and pars from playing a shorter course would result in more players having more fun and be more conducive to growing the game. Jaka is just sitting by the wayside trying to maintain his reputation of being a provocateur by sniping about me being a cheater with a sandbagger handicap.

Right now we are sidetracked by an exercise where Patrick guides me around the course. Not sure how that will work out as he has me in the rough on the first tee shot of the day, while I wanted to be in the fairway.

Garland,

I am making the argument that honest golfers who want to play in club events can not play it forward because it will unfairly lower their handicap. I'm just lucky having a sandbagger on this thread proving my point.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm 6 pages late but here's my 2 dollars worth….

This past fall when my club started to get a bit wet (and cart were restricted to paths), I went out and started playing from our Junior Tees (maybe 1600 yards for 9 holes).  Played super fast, didn't have to chase balls all over the place on soggy turf, and I learned a lot about my game.

On the Front 9 I can drive 1 of the par 5's, all the par 4's (most with irons), and the par 3's all play from inside of 30 yards.

6 under is the best I could do (using the regular par for the hole).  I got so hooked the first time I did it, I played my next 4 rounds from the forward tees.  

It's fun and I think it's just as challenging as playing from any tee.  

Pat…totally agree that they got the name all wrong.  

I don't think the program will really take off, but I wish everyone would try it especially on a course you play frequently.  Even if you just move up one tee or if you can check you manhood in the pro shop and tee if from the forwards.  Let me know how pissed you are when you make a bogey!

Joe,

Did you post those scores?  I've done the same thing and am sure to be the only person who has played from all 100+ tees at Victoria National. Of course I only play the "junior" tees when in non posting situations. I do not believe for a second that courses are rated for handicap using this new play it forward mentality.  The USGA has a long history of punishing those who do the right thing and protecting those who don't.

[Paul Jones]

My handicap is almost always between a 3 and 4.  Last year I moved up 1 set of tees and started to have a lot of fun.  Our back tees are 6900, but I just found it more fun to play 6500 - 6700.  

I play in a Saturday morning game - usually 4 tee times with handicap ranging from 0 - 26.  We all enter our scores after each round and 1 person keeps track of all the handicaps.  We don't care which tees anyone plays from, just adjust according.  Sometimes I play with a scratch player (he is a Pro) and he even likes to move up at times and we just add 2 strokes to his handicap.  This year our winter is actually "cold" - but we can still play - so most of us move up at least one tee and hopefully that will stick.

[Patrick_Mucci]

...How do you think I beat Kalen?

Because I wasn't caddying for him  
...

He didn't need you, he had Anthony Gray helping him. [

How did that work out for him ?/color]

[Nigel Islam]

John,
     I understand exactly what you mean. I tend to play a lot of different local courses just because I like variety. They tend to be shorter, easier courses. The downside is that because I actually post every score, my handicap is probably lower than what I actually think it should be. I rarely need a handicap so it doesn't really matter too much to me. I just got a handicap so I could play St. Andrews last year.  Only the top ten out of twenty scores actually count. Hence as a general rule, a golfer should only really play better than their index approximately 25% of the time.

As Jeff Foxworthy would say: If you play to your handicap more than half the time in tournaments.......you might be a sandbagger

[A.G._Crockett]

With the high bunker on left, I think I pull 7 wood and lay up short of bunkers.

When you play in matches differently than how you established your handicap you are a cheat.  The above are not the words of a true 22.

With 10 par 4s and 3 par 5s, I only pull driver on 8 holes on my home course. Are you saying that I should pull it more often and be a 27 handicap?

Garland,
With all due respect, your home course is less than 6000 yd. from the back tees, isn't it?  That you only hit driver 8 times actually proves Pat's point quite nicely. You are, in effect, already playing it forward; your course is 600 yd. shorter that the forward tees at Pat's course, I believe.  That you can play bogey golf, which isn't terrible golf by any stretch, without hitting driver on a majority of the holes on your course is exactly what Pat is advocating others might try to enjoy the game more.  I know that deep down you understand this.

I'm sure that you have some statistical reason for say that hitting your driver more than 8 times on a 6000 yd. course would double your handicap, so no need to get into that.  That has not been my experience with 6000 yd. courses at all, and though that would be truly some unusual/weird GCA, we'll let that statement go.  But the fact is that TIF and Pat are advocating a very simple change in the way the game is played (TIF) while you are advocating a complete change (really several changes!) in the fundamental way golf is played.  

I'm still trying to get over these two quotes from your first post on the first page, which form the essence of your argument if I understand it:

"Birdies and pars are just nonsense noise that a very small percentage of golfers worry about. People should play match play and get rid of this me against the course nonsense."

"Furthermore play if forward is the wrong motto, because it is based on the ignorance of a few players that GIR has some meaning to. The high handicapper (average player) can play it forward and have little or no effect on GIR."
  
  

[A.G._Crockett]

My handicap is almost always between a 3 and 4.  Last year I moved up 1 set of tees and started to have a lot of fun.  Our back tees are 6900, but I just found it more fun to play 6500 - 6700.  

I play in a Saturday morning game - usually 4 tee times with handicap ranging from 0 - 26.  We all enter our scores after each round and 1 person keeps track of all the handicaps.  We don't care which tees anyone plays from, just adjust according.  Sometimes I play with a scratch player (he is a Pro) and he even likes to move up at times and we just add 2 strokes to his handicap.  This year our winter is actually "cold" - but we can still play - so most of us move up at least one tee and hopefully that will stick.

Paul,
This is my experience exactly.  We have 4 sets of tees, plus three combo sets, ranging in 200 yd. increments from 7000 to 5800.  The player selects the tees he will play (with an age restriction of 65 for the two most forward, which is one of the combos and the front tees).  You can change twice a year when the time changes.

In our points/skins game, we have everything from a 25 yr. old aspiring Tour player to a 78 year old who is 5-6 and weighs maybe 140 lbs.  We have guys who played professionally and got their amateur status back and still play competitively at the state and national levels, and we have guys with pacemakers and artificial joints who can't see or hear.  

In my case (61 and a 5.6 index) I play a combo set at 6400 most of the year, but move up to a 6200 set in the winter.  Our 3s and 5s are on the short side, but the 4s are a bear due to several forced carries, so the winter is an issue for me.

And it all works great!  We usually have 20-25 guys at $20 a head, and it is a blast.  If there is ANY issue it is in the gross skins game; net skins and points pretty much take care of themselves despite the yardage differences.  And the gross skins aren't really an issue often; more birdies are made by the low handicappers no matter where they play from.

Since the TIF movement has started, it seems to have taken some stigma away from moving up.  Play is faster, the group is bigger, there is more money to be won, and guys seem a bit happier with the whole process.  I often hit last in my group on Sat. and Sun. because I'm up a set of tees from my younger fellow competitors, and on Tue./Thurs. in the Senior game I usually hit last from the same tees because I'm one of the younger seniors.

But it all works.

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