[Patrick_Mucci]

Play it forward is the wrong motto, because beat your buddies should do it.

Birdies and pars are just nonsense noise that a very small percentage of golfers worry about.

People should play match play and get rid of this me against the course nonsense.

It's me against my friend in a friendly match that culminates in the loser forking over a token amount and the winner buying refreshments in the clubhouse.

So, you're going to tell us that you get great satisfaction in making a 10 when your opponent makes an 11.

That the 10 has no impact on you or your perception of yourself as a player/golfer ?

And that conversely, when you make a 10, but, your friend makes a 9, that the 10 doesn't upset you as much as losing the hole ?

Give us a break

[Garland Bayley]

Play it forward is the wrong motto, because beat your buddies should do it.

Birdies and pars are just nonsense noise that a very small percentage of golfers worry about.

People should play match play and get rid of this me against the course nonsense.

It's me against my friend in a friendly match that culminates in the loser forking over a token amount and the winner buying refreshments in the clubhouse.

So, you're going to tell us that you get great satisfaction in making a 10 when your opponent makes an 11.

That the 10 has no impact on you or your perception of yourself as a player/golfer ?

And that conversely, when you make a 10, but, your friend makes a 9, that the 10 doesn't upset you as much as losing the hole ?

Give us a break

Patrick,

I'm telling you that people that make 9s, 10s, and 11s, get satisfaction from winning the hole from their opponent. You realize that going into these number takes us into the realm of 40 handicappers. I didn't know you cared so much about or understood the women's game.
 

The pro in our pro shop tells me that most of the women buy the 10 bead strings for keeping their hole scores. He also tells me that most of them that buy them complain that there are only 10 beads.

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

Garland's second goal right behind winning is maintaining his 22 handicap. Remember, he is the guy who adjusts the course rating, as allowed by the USGA, based on his estimation of tee placement. I can't believe you are wasting your time and ours by arguing with a sandbagger. Btw.  A bagger never tees it forward until tournament time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, you said:  "...I felt that golfers who were reluctant to move up, had lost sight of an object of the game, namely, making more birdies and pars."

You covered yourself here by saying "AN" object of the game instead of "THE" object, so my comment may not fit...

That wasn't by accident.

but, too many people are totally fixed on score to the detriment of their (and others) enjoyment of the game. Just like a lot of the guys on this site who think riding in a cart is not really golf, but "cart golf," I don't think "tournament golf" is really golf. Golf for the masses is supposed to be a GAME with the object being the defeat of your opponent, regardless of how many strokes it takes to do so.

The only way to beat your opponent is to score LOWER than him.

SCORE, or rather attempting to achieve the LOWEST score is an object of the game.

All of you morons who play these phantom opponents where score isn't relevant are kidding yourselves.
And, if you play the opponent, and not the hole, you must be a lousy match play golfer.

Ask yourself, how many times have you made a par or birdie from out of nowhere.
You can't depend upon your opponent to screw up, so you have to try to make the lowest score possible.
As Hale Irwin told me, always expect your opponent to make the shot you don't want him to make.
If your play is focused on your opponent and not the hole, then you must stink.
Play the hole, but, be cognizant of the opponent.

I have the most fun playing golf when I am embroiled in a competition and the only focus for the players is winning the match.

You can ONLY win the match by scoring LOWER than your opponent on the majority of holes played

My worst days on the course are when I am playing with someone who is a "swing nut" and totally focused on their score. It is not much fun when the guy who is obviously mostly concerned with his individual score makes a couple of bogies (or, God forbid, double bogies) and declares that his round is totally ruined.

So you don't think that your opponent in match play is "totally focused on his score" ?

The guys I most enjoy on the course are the ones who have no idea what they shot after the round is over.

They're called hackers or tennis players or surfers, but, they sure as hell ain't golfer.

Sometimes those guys shoot 69, sometimes 109... doesn't matter to them or me.

NOBODY, who shoots 69 is oblivious to their round to date.
They know exactly where they stand.
They just aren't apt to admit it.

What matters is that we spent the day together trying to have a fun competition... not measuring our dicks.

Once you enter a "competition" you're "measuring your dicks" whether you want to admit it or not.

In my opinion, playing non-tournament golf for a score instead of trying to win a match is masterbation.

What's wrong with masterbation ?

So, when you play golf, and the first hole is a par 5, you don't care what you make.
You don't try to play your best and achieve the lowest possible score, given your abilities.

Please, spare us the B.S.

Some of my most competitive, non-tournament, non-financial rounds, have been against Ran, and both of us tried to play each hole in the lowest possible score.  Anyone who claims otherwise is full of crap.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Play it forward is the wrong motto, because beat your buddies should do it.
Birdies and pars are just nonsense noise that a very small percentage of golfers worry about.
People should play match play and get rid of this me against the course nonsense.

It's me against my friend in a friendly match that culminates in the loser forking over a token amount and the winner buying refreshments in the clubhouse.

So, you're going to tell us that you get great satisfaction in making a 10 when your opponent makes an 11.

That the 10 has no impact on you or your perception of yourself as a player/golfer ?

And that conversely, when you make a 10, but, your friend makes a 9, that the 10 doesn't upset you as much as losing the hole ?

Give us a break

Patrick,

I'm telling you that people that make 9s, 10s, and 11s, get satisfaction from winning the hole from their opponent.

There is NO 5, 10, 15 or 20 handicap that gets adequate satisfaction from scoring a 9, 10 or 11 and winning a hole.

You realize that going into these number takes us into the realm of 40 handicappers.

Now you're trying to back into justifying your claim by creating a unique subset of golfers, after your initial claim.

We haven't been talking about 40+ handicappers.
When's the last time you played a match against a 40+ handicap ?
When's the last time you played for money against a 40+ handicap ?

I didn't know you cared so much about or understood the women's game.

You see, that shows how little you know about me.
I care about everyone's game, I just care more about some than others.
 
The pro in our pro shop tells me that most of the women buy the 10 bead strings for keeping their hole scores.
He also tells me that most of them that buy them complain that there are only 10 beads.

Are you sure that he was talking about golf

[Tim Martin]

It's me against my friend in a friendly match that culminates in the loser forking over a token amount and the winner buying refreshments in the clubhouse.l

So, if I could caddy for your friend and tell him that I can, through course management and swing analysis, probably produce 6 more pars and birdies in his round, he won't be interested ?  ?  ?  You either have weird friends or non-golfers for friends.

Is this Kreskin like feat going to take place over a series of plays or the first time out? We are talking about a player with a handicap of between 16 and 24 if I am reading this correctly.  When you are done with that maybe you can teach my dog to fly.....

[John Kavanaugh]

I used to play with a sandbagger who we would beg to move up a set of tees with our other older friend. In a rare honest statement he told us that he would not because it would lower his handicap. We had to let him go.

Once again it is the cheaters and the selfish who are killing the game.  Play it forward will never catch on as long as cheaters are allowed in the discussion of policy.

I will not be responding to anyone that claims adjustments are made according to length. It simply isn't true when a bagger can post a 7 on a par three played from the wrong tee.

[BCowan]

this thread is epic!

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's me against my friend in a friendly match that culminates in the loser forking over a token amount and the winner buying refreshments in the clubhouse.l

So, if I could caddy for your friend and tell him that I can, through course management and swing analysis, probably produce 6 more pars and birdies in his round, he won't be interested ?  ?  ?  You either have weird friends or non-golfers for friends.

Is this Kreskin like feat going to take place over a series of plays or the first time out? We are talking about a player with a handicap of between 16 and 24 if I am reading this correctly.  When you are done with that maybe you can teach my dog to fly.....

It's been my limited observations that high handicaps, 16-24 could probably reduce their score on a given round by at least 4 shots with proper course management and club selection, so getting another two strokes vis a vis swing analysis should be an easy task.

As to Kreskin, when he was first starting out, in the 50's, he was the magician my mother hired for my younger brother's birthday party.
Little did we realize what I celebrity he would become.
Maybe it was the advice I gave him 

[Garland Bayley]

...
And, if you play the opponent, and not the hole, you must be a lousy match play golfer.
...

A statement of arrogance ("you must be a lousy match play golfer") based on the ignorance of the highly skilled golfer.
Successful match play high handicappers watch for their opponents inevitable bad swings, and adjust their play of the hole accordingly to avoid the situations that might precipitate their own miscues.

Sorry to go all Dostoyevsky on you.

[Tim Martin]

It's me against my friend in a friendly match that culminates in the loser forking over a token amount and the winner buying refreshments in the clubhouse.l

So, if I could caddy for your friend and tell him that I can, through course management and swing analysis, probably produce 6 more pars and birdies in his round, he won't be interested ?  ?  ?  You either have weird friends or non-golfers for friends.

Is this Kreskin like feat going to take place over a series of plays or the first time out? We are talking about a player with a handicap of between 16 and 24 if I am reading this correctly.  When you are done with that maybe you can teach my dog to fly.....

It's been my limited observations that high handicaps, 16-24 could probably reduce their score on a given round by at least 4 shots with proper course management and club selection, so getting another two strokes vis a vis swing analysis should be an easy task.

As to Kreskin, when he was first starting out, in the 50's, he was the magician my mother hired for my younger brother's birthday party.
Little did we realize what I celebrity he would become.
Maybe it was the advice I gave him 

Pat-You said and I quote " six more pars and birdies in his round" which is a lot different than your most current claim of shaving six strokes off his score. By the way I loved when Kreskin was on Johnny Carson.

[Tom_Doak]

Thirty years ago I used to argue with Pete Dye about forward tees ... he was trying to move them all up to where the average player hit 8-iron second shots like the pros do, and I said I'd rather have a variety of approach lengths [which we couldn't do for the pros, because 470 yards was driver, 8-iron for them in 1984].

I still feel the same way.  You shouldn't play ALL the tees forward, you should mix them up and play some forward and some WAY forward -- and a couple from the back tee, as long as there isn't a 230-yard carry.

[Garland Bayley]

Play it forward is the wrong motto, because beat your buddies should do it.
Birdies and pars are just nonsense noise that a very small percentage of golfers worry about.
People should play match play and get rid of this me against the course nonsense.

It's me against my friend in a friendly match that culminates in the loser forking over a token amount and the winner buying refreshments in the clubhouse.

So, you're going to tell us that you get great satisfaction in making a 10 when your opponent makes an 11.

That the 10 has no impact on you or your perception of yourself as a player/golfer ?

And that conversely, when you make a 10, but, your friend makes a 9, that the 10 doesn't upset you as much as losing the hole ?

Give us a break

Patrick,

I'm telling you that people that make 9s, 10s, and 11s, get satisfaction from winning the hole from their opponent.

There is NO 5, 10, 15 or 20 handicap that gets adequate satisfaction from scoring a 9, 10 or 11 and winning a hole.

I have been playing with a handicap between 20 and 25 for ten years and I have only seen one match play hole won with a number like that. Aren't you selling your lower handicap buddies short by even suggesting that such events take place. We are talking a minimum of one match per week for 52 weeks a year for 10 years. The one hole I saw won that way was by me against Kalen at KP at Sagebrush. I went into the trip to KP playing one handed because the arthritis in my left hand was very painful. Kalen knew I was handicapped ahead of time, and so we were both very confident he was going to win the match easily, which he did. However, I managed a 10 on a long par 5 while Kalen blew up entirely on the hole for an 11. I got great satisfaction from winning that hole and the whole KP group lorded that hole over him the rest of the weekend. We have seen little of Kalen on this website since.

You realize that going into these number takes us into the realm of 40 handicappers.

Now you're trying to back into justifying your claim by creating a unique subset of golfers, after your initial claim.

We haven't been talking about 40+ handicappers.
When's the last time you played a match against a 40+ handicap ?
When's the last time you played for money against a 40+ handicap ?

I am not creating a unique subset of golfers, I am simply reporting on the golfers that make the kind of scores your ridiculous statement suggested.

On Friday nights at my club we have 4 couples playing 4 balls in alternate shots. Many of the women in these matches carry 40+ handicaps, and if they don't have a handicap (like my wife) they are assigned a 45 handicap for the evening.
I have an 80 something friend I play with that would come out with a handicap of over 40 if it were calculated.
So I play matches with 40+ handicappers, but somehow I doubt you do.

Your ignorance and resulting arrogances seem to know no bounds.

I didn't know you cared so much about or understood the women's game.

You see, that shows how little you know about me.
I care about everyone's game, I just care more about some than others.
 
The pro in our pro shop tells me that most of the women buy the 10 bead strings for keeping their hole scores.
He also tells me that most of them that buy them complain that there are only 10 beads.

Are you sure that he was talking about golf

[jeffwarne]

Thirty years ago I used to argue with Pete Dye about forward tees ... he was trying to move them all up to where the average player hit 8-iron second shots like the pros do, and I said I'd rather have a variety of approach lengths [which we couldn't do for the pros, because 470 yards was driver, 8-iron for them in 1984].

I still feel the same way.  You shouldn't play ALL the tees forward, you should mix them up and play some forward and some WAY forward -- and a couple from the back tee, as long as there isn't a 230-yard carry.

But make sure you have a designated color tee so no one has to think
and a course rating and slope for just that tee (and 15 other colored tees)
and a separate scorecard for each combination
 

Every course in America has nearly every conceiveable yardage one could ever want (except perhaps for a bomber)
but courses consistently get evaluated by where the one set of markers are they choose to play.

Tom, 470 driver 8 iron in 1984? maybe for Jim Dent.

[BCowan]

Combination tees are just unneeded.  Golf went from 2 or 3 tee boxes to 4 tee boxes, which is great IMO.  Now we have 5 or 6 tee boxes and combination cards.  Pick a tee and play from it!  Older course lacked tee progressions IMO but we went from one extreme to another extreme!  I am sure we could ask a lot of caddies about how to speed up the game of golf without making it an elaborate study!

Motto's

"The short game area is open'', ''no practice swings'', ''see your local PGA professional'', ''Brown plays shorter'', ''While we are young''

The Mucci/GJ thread is still fun, having hard time telling who said what with all the color combinations...  Sorry to interrupt...

[John Kavanaugh]

Couples outings with combo handicaps in the high 60's?!  You may as well let the Lipizzaner Stallions out on the fairways.

[Matthew Sander]

"If people are keeping up, keep quiet and let them play however they want!  The need to be an authoritarian is so important to so many people."

"Combination tees are just unneeded...Pick a tee and play from it!"

Ben,

Wow, and from the same thread to boot

I like using a combo tee, especially on a course that I play many times. If my playing partners are opposed to it, then so be it, but I find it fun to change up the character of the holes from time to time. The net result is almost always a shorter course because I usually play the course from the tips or one tee up. I guess this is a discussion for another thread though...

[BCowan]

Matthew

   You got me.  All in good fun.  I am definitely not advocating it through coercion like i feel some would do if they could.  I am just saying that we have gone from not enough tee selections to too many, maybe one could argue to much of a maint. pain cutting 6 tee boxes.  If conditions are bad, i will move up a tee box, but think it is over the top printing additional scorecards and maint.

[Garland Bayley]

Patrick,

Garland's second goal right behind winning is maintaining his 22 handicap. Remember, he is the guy who adjusts the course rating, as allowed by the USGA, based on his estimation of tee placement. I can't believe you are wasting your time and ours by arguing with a sandbagger. Btw.  A bagger never tees it forward until tournament time.

Wherever do you come up with this nonsense? I tee it forward almost every time I play as my home course is 5752 yards. I suggest you need to visit the pope more often, as you claim it absolved your hate last time.

[Garland Bayley]

Couples outings with combo handicaps in the high 60's?!  You may as well let the Lipizzaner Stallions out on the fairways.

Which part of alternate shot didn't you understand? Drinking late again tonight John?

[Jason Thurman]

Ben, it would seem that combo tees help mitigate the problem of having too many tee boxes, would it not?

Who on this thread do you think would move others up a tee through coercion? What method of coercion do you think they would use? Do you think municipal golf courses will eventually have armed guards, hired under the umbrella of "job creation," who force golfers to move up a tee if they play slowly? I must say that such a future seems realistic to me after watching the first two movies in The Hunger Games series recently.

Pat, your suggested slogan is a reminder of how much the concept of fun has been marginalized by the way golf is presented to the public. Watching Tour players grind it out and publicizing courses with long rough, long yardages, and narrow fairways has made the public image of golf one of difficulty rather than one of enjoyment. The tee it forward movement got a few of my friends to move up for a few weeks, and they all really liked it. Eventually though, they started to feel like they were cheating the system (even though most were still shooting in the 80s or 90s) and moved back to make things more difficult. You're right that it's in the best interest of the game to change the attitude that says we should all play the most difficult version of a course that we can handle, but I fear that golfers might have been taught to hate themselves too much for that to catch on now. I hope I'm wrong. I don't care what tees anyone plays from, but I do think a lot of golfers and the game itself would benefit from a greater focus on enjoyment, and making more birdies and pars certainly helps a lot of people enjoy the game more.

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

Garland's second goal right behind winning is maintaining his 22 handicap. Remember, he is the guy who adjusts the course rating, as allowed by the USGA, based on his estimation of tee placement. I can't believe you are wasting your time and ours by arguing with a sandbagger. Btw.  A bagger never tees it forward until tournament time.

Wherever do you come up with this nonsense? I tee it forward almost every time I play as my home course is 5752 yards. I suggest you need to visit the pope more often, as you claim it absolved your hate last time.

Are you the guy in Oregon that posts every score as a combo?  I would love to see a link to your ghin account.  I have no problem stating that you scam the system. That is cheating in an honorable game.

I can avoid slow players. I can't stop cheaters.

[BCowan]

Jason

  I knew you would go there.  Yes combo tees may limit tee boxes, but would require additional score cards to be printed (some courses printed two score cards for these and is annoying to staff).  If that isn't the case the original scorecard would look like a little too busy.  Sean and some others made it very clear that certain people should not be playing the back tees.  Coercion as in limiting longer tees as a way to limiting choice is what i would feel his next step would be if in charge.  Please reread earlier posts!

[Patrick_Mucci]

...
And, if you play the opponent, and not the hole, you must be a lousy match play golfer.
...

A statement of arrogance ("you must be a lousy match play golfer") based on the ignorance of the highly skilled golfer.

How about a highly skilled, highly intelligent golfer.

Successful match play high handicappers watch for their opponents inevitable bad swings, and adjust their play of the hole accordingly to avoid the situations that might precipitate their own miscues.

Let me see if I have this straight.

You claim, and I quote you, that "Successful match play HIGH Handicappers watch for their opponents inevitiable bad swings, and ADJUST THEIR PLAY OF THE HOLE ACCORDINGLY, to avoid situations that might precipitate their own miscues."

To quote the great JakaB, then they must be cheaters with phony handicaps.

There's not a HIGH HANDICAPPER in the world that possesses that talent, let alone the recognition skills.

Only a SUPREME MORON would make that statement.
That's right, you've gone beyond COLOSSAL, into the SUPREME category.

Yours is one of the most B.S. statements ever made on this site.

Now you're claiming that HIGH HANDICAP GOLFERS POSSESS THE SAME SKILLS RESERVED FOR LOW HANDICAP GOLFERS.

Sorry to go all Dostoyevsky on you.

Hey, I don't mind it at all, sorry to go all common sense on you  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ben, it would seem that combo tees help mitigate the problem of having too many tee boxes, would it not?

Who on this thread do you think would move others up a tee through coercion? What method of coercion do you think they would use? Do you think municipal golf courses will eventually have armed guards, hired under the umbrella of "job creation," who force golfers to move up a tee if they play slowly? I must say that such a future seems realistic to me after watching the first two movies in The Hunger Games series recently.

Pat, your suggested slogan is a reminder of how much the concept of fun has been marginalized by the way golf is presented to the public. Watching Tour players grind it out and publicizing courses with long rough, long yardages, and narrow fairways has made the public image of golf one of difficulty rather than one of enjoyment. The tee it forward movement got a few of my friends to move up for a few weeks, and they all really liked it. Eventually though, they started to feel like they were cheating the system (even though most were still shooting in the 80s or 90s) and moved back to make things more difficult. You're right that it's in the best interest of the game to change the attitude that says we should all play the most difficult version of a course that we can handle, but I fear that golfers might have been taught to hate themselves too much for that to catch on now. I hope I'm wrong. I don't care what tees anyone plays from, but I do think a lot of golfers and the game itself would benefit from a greater focus on enjoyment, and making more birdies and pars certainly helps a lot of people enjoy the game more.

Jason,

As much as I like watching great players play golf, and I appreciate that those guys are really, really good.

I think the televising of PGA Tour events has also hurt golf in terms of conditioning and play.

Golf is the one of the only games in the world where the worst players want to play the same field of play as the best players in the world.

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