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Peter Pallotta

Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2014, 11:06:48 PM »
I think GJ is on the right/better track.

For me and the people I play with and the golfers I see, "Don't be an Idiot" is the more effective slogan.

Peter


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2014, 11:08:14 PM »
It's actually all nonsense ;) and doesn't address the real problems in golf

Play where you enjoy(which could involve rotating tees as well), and keep up with the group in front (which does address the issues)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2014, 11:24:54 PM »
There are only two problems in golf. Selfishness and cheating.  The only solution is to isolate yourself from each.  A cocktail of extreme patience and brutal honesty will set you free from these types of golfers.  Of course one misstep and you could end up playing alone.

Peter Pallotta

Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2014, 11:26:15 PM »
Jeff - I think "Don't be an Idiot" captures all that.

I'm an average golfer at best, but usually I get it off the tee far enough to be left (on most par 4s) with an 8 iron or less. If I (or the guys I tend to play with) were idiots, we might say, "Hey, we're doing good - let's move back a set of tees, we can handle it".  And for me at least, in one sense that would be good -- I like the challenge of hitting longer irons, I like trying to get better at that. But, since I try not to be an idiot, I never do move back -- and that's because I know and am truthful about my game, i.e. that the approach shots that just miss the putting surfaces with using 8 and 7 irons, usually resulting in a poor chip and at least two putts, would miss even more badly with 5 and 4 irons, and probably results in a bad pitch as well as a bad chip; and I know that, swinging harder off the tee (from the back tees) would result in more pulls and pushes and more punch outs and more missed greens, and that my scores and the time it takes me to play would go up exponentially. But at the same time, I don't play it forward, both because I tend to play quickly and I tend to stay right on the group in front of me, and because I don't have much interest in hitting 9s or PWs into greens all day -- I guess I might score better, but it feels like I wouldn't be getting any better as a golfer.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2014, 11:45:49 PM »
Peter,
with respect,
I know a lot of really. slow intelligent people who are definitely not idiots
Many tee it forward.
If teeing it forward makes people happy or golf more fun for them,I say go for it.
Heck, why not "Tee off from the fringe"?

But keep up with the group in front
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 11:47:48 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2014, 11:59:02 PM »
...
Heck, why not "Tee off from the fringe"?
...

Forrest wanted to build a par two where you tee off from the fringe, but his client wouldn't let him.

Guess we're stuck teeing it back from there.
;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2014, 02:50:30 AM »
In a perfect world (ie empty courses) I agree with GJ.  In the world I live in, I say beat your mates from tees which make for a quicker game.  I find myself less and less willing to be directed to a teeing area solely to meet the expectation of a card.  Unless there is a significant difference in  hole quality/interest I want to make a bee line for the nearest tee.  Of course most don't see it that way and the compromise I aim for is whoever has the honour chooses the tee.  

Two interesting things have come up which occurs to me may differentiate my thoughts on tee selection.  

Pietro mentions getting better.  I never think before I tee up that I am trying to get better.  If I was keen to do that I would tee it up less and spend more time alone practicing.  That doesn't appeal to me in the least so I trundle along trying to enjoy what I have.  

Satisfaction for me doesn't come from a 78 or an 81.  I would need to score far better than that to be satisfied by a medal score.  I am satisfied if I had a good time, in good company on a nice course.  Of course, winning makes it sweeter, but no more satisfactory.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2014, 01:11:29 PM »
In a perfect world (ie empty courses) I agree with GJ.  In the world I live in, I say beat your mates from tees which make for a quicker game. ...
Ciao

As discussed on another thread, on the courses I play the tees I play are almost universally those closest to the green. The courses I play have little money to add back tees that make you walk farther just because the ball goes farther now that it did before 2000. However, I am guessing that in the British Isles, the courses have been around from nearly the 19th century, so it has necessitated adding tees that make you walk backwards from the green. I saw this when I revisited the Perranporth routing I had posted. I had forgotten that was the case on such courses.

I guess then Sean has nailed it. I live in a perfect world, and he does not. ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2014, 01:59:48 PM »

I am satisfied if I had a good time, in good company on a nice course.  Of course, winning makes it sweeter, but no more satisfactory.


Happy New Year Sean!

Can you explain this comment to me? Isn't it more enjoyable to hit a 6 iron well and have it end up 10 feet from the hole then to hit it poorly into the greenside crap?

I personally would rather play very well and lose a close match than play poorly and beat someone who played worse...assuming we're talking about casual friendly matches.

Brent Hutto

Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2014, 02:13:52 PM »
I'm in Sean's camp on this one. I know what it takes to keep "getting better" and it takes a bunch of stuff I don't want to do. So I don't. And totally agree that a so-called improvement of my typical score of 84 or so to something like a 78 would not be particularly satisfying. I know how the game is played by good players and me hacking up in 78 strokes from the 5,700 yards tees is not really that similar to how good players play.

But Jim certainly has a point that knocking it close with a 6-iron is better than 'most any alternative outcome. Which is how I arrived at those 5,700 yard tees. I want to have several chances every round (or most, excluding those awful rounds where nothing is working) to hit one of those satisfying shots. And doing it from 600 yards longer I eventually figured out that a bogey golfer ain't knocking it to 10 feet very often with a 5-wood.

I would even be willing to consider playing the course shorter than that. But I guess I have just enough of a stroke-play mentality that if I were to move up to some 5,000 yard ladies tees or whatever the temptation would be to play a bunch of Par 4's as 5-iron/8-iron rather than driver/flip wedge.

I seem to find my joy when I can pretend to have a little bit of "strategy" going. Drivers off the tee except for the odd hole where a 4-wood or 3-iron is a better percentage shot. Lots of 6-irons and 7-irons into greens with at least a chance of the occasional hole where I "bomb" (by my standards) a drive and am rewarded with a sand wedge approach, counterbalanced by the knowledge that a few holes are going to need a solid drive to avoid the dreaded fairway wood approach shot.

But back to one of Sean's statements, I would definitely rather make a putt to win on the last hole after my opponent and I each shot a million (here's looking at you, Muldoon!) than hit a bunch of great shots, shoot under my handicap and still lose 3-and-1. Maybe it's because I play so much solo golf, I cherish competitive rounds when I get them and it's all about the ebb and flow of competition. It probably makes me a weaker player but I absolutely refuse to try and put thoughts of where I stand on this hole or in the match out of my mind and just play "me against the course" as so much advise would have it. Where's the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat and all that???
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 03:24:04 PM by Brent Hutto »

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2014, 03:06:31 PM »
Pat, you said:  "...I felt that golfers who were reluctant to move up, had lost sight of an object of the game, namely, making more birdies and pars."

You covered yourself here by saying "AN" object of the game instead of "THE" object, so my comment may not fit...

but, too many people are totally fixed on score to the detriment of their (and others) enjoyment of the game. Just like a lot of the guys on this site who think riding in a cart is not really golf, but "cart golf," I don't think "tournament golf" is really golf. Golf for the masses is supposed to be a GAME with the object being the defeat of your opponent, regardless of how many strokes it takes to do so.

I have the most fun playing golf when I am embroiled in a competition and the only focus for the players is winning the match.

My worst days on the course are when I am playing with someone who is a "swing nut" and totally focused on their score. It is not much fun when the guy who is obviously mostly concerned with his individual score makes a couple of bogies (or, God forbid, double bogies) and declares that his round is totally ruined.

The guys I most enjoy on the course are the ones who have no idea what they shot after the round is over. Sometimes those guys shoot 69, sometimes 109... doesn't matter to them or me. What matters is that we spent the day together trying to have a fun competition... not measuring our dicks.

In my opinion, playing non-tournament golf for a score instead of trying to win a match is masterbation.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2014, 03:20:18 PM »
Just a hunch, but I suspect "Play it forward" was market-tested and focus-grouped to a fare-thee-well...  And I suspect that the connotations of "forward" were extremely appealing and generally very positive.  Forward-thinking, fashion forward, forward march -- all of these  phrases denote something which is moving in the right direction.

"Make more birdies and pars" is seductive, but when the ego-driven player learns that the solution is to emasculate the experience by eschewing the tips, well, I'm not so sure the approach wouldn't backfire... What would Freud say?  

"Play it forward" emphasizes play, connotes a forward-thinking youthful attitude, suggests that playing from the back is outmoded or old-fashioned (a retreat), and as Jim K theorized, it plants the seed of the idea of playing faster.  It's a good slogan.

We came upon a 'forward-thinking' plan for our senior men's club championship. They play the middle tees on the front nine and move to the gold for the back, where it's some 450 yards shorter.  As a group, play is about 25 to 30 minutes faster and scores improve between 2 and 3 strokes.
Initially there was some hesitation about this arrangement from a few participants, but the 'group-think' of the majority prevailed. The idea was a success, in part, because as a group no one felt that they were 'surrendering' anything as an individual.

Ben Cowan  - I deal with people on the golf course all the time, and it is so much easier to get them thinking about new ideas when groups (like their buddies in the aforementioned event) try them, or trusted organizations (like the USGA and the PGA) promote them.

Pat - Even though you're almost sounding new-age, warmly accentuating the positive instead of your usual cold splash of water, I tend to believe that speeding up play is the primary issue. The few more pars or birdies are the perks, ones that forward-moving players will find all by themselves.  


p.s. and if by some chance they don't find any more pars and birdies from moving forward, they'll at least be home much sooner than their wives figured on.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 03:24:29 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

BCowan

Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2014, 03:29:43 PM »
I agree with jeffwarne

Michael- No one is forcing you to play with people ''who like to work on their swing''.  Or people would rather play the course than play a match with you.  Just as you shouldn't force or manipulate others into what you think is right.  You must not be a fan of Sir Nick Faldo.  I don't care for match play, but i don't make ridiculous analogies about it.  

If people are keeping up, keep quiet and let them play however they want!  The need to be an authoritarian is so important to so many people.  
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 03:31:27 PM by BCowan »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2014, 03:29:48 PM »
I agree with Patrick.  As an anecdote, I played my bucket list round at Sand Hills from the middle tees.  Broke 40 on the front 9 and had a blast.  Best of all was that I was able to hit the clubs into the green that the greens were designed for!

Another - The USGA came out to my club a few years ago and held a stableford tournament using a restricted flight ball.  We set up special tees for that event (close to what are now though of as the "senior tees").  All but 5 people really liked the experience.  (The other 5 guys complained that they paid for the distance gains, and felt cheated by playing up).  That was the event, by the way, where Joe Bausch had an eagle 2 on the 9th hole - quite a feat!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 03:33:19 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2014, 03:34:47 PM »

We came upon a 'forward-thinking' plan for our senior men's club championship. They play the middle tees on the front nine and move to the gold for the back, where it's some 450 yards shorter.  As a group, play is about 25 to 30 minutes faster and scores improve between 2 and 3 strokes.
...

Assuming 450 yards shorter still has to be walked, or carts that render the 450 yards insignificant. And assuming 2 to 3 shots means 10 shots for a foursome, then 25/10 is 2.5 minutes or more per shot. You are not dealing with a play it forward problem you are dealing with a glacial pace of play problem. Playing it forward really solved nothing.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2014, 04:18:34 PM »

We came upon a 'forward-thinking' plan for our senior men's club championship. They play the middle tees on the front nine and move to the gold for the back, where it's some 450 yards shorter.  As a group, play is about 25 to 30 minutes faster and scores improve between 2 and 3 strokes.
...

Assuming 450 yards shorter still has to be walked, or carts that render the 450 yards insignificant. And assuming 2 to 3 shots means 10 shots for a foursome, then 25/10 is 2.5 minutes or more per shot. You are not dealing with a play it forward problem you are dealing with a glacial pace of play problem. Playing it forward really solved nothing.

On our course it can be 6 shots per player, so about one minute per shot, and we're not even taking into account the trouble they avoid from the shorter set-up. The 1st and 9th holes respectively play about 1.5 and 2 strokes harder on the front, and the par five 7th becomes a par 4.

We've been doing this about 5 years with approximately the same results.    

« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 04:24:15 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Brent Hutto

Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2014, 04:21:52 PM »
Your paltry five years of personal experience can't possibly trump the intuition of guys half a continent away who know that your pace of play sucks and there's nothing you can do about it. Not that they've seen your course or met your players or anything. Those are just subjective details.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2014, 04:26:06 PM »
Your paltry five years of personal experience can't possibly trump the intuition of guys half a continent away who know that your pace of play sucks and there's nothing you can do about it. Not that they've seen your course or met your players or anything. Those are just subjective details.

I cut Garland some slack, it's a full continent away.  ;) ;D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Brent Hutto

Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2014, 04:27:07 PM »
Oh I wasn't talking about Garland. Really, not about him at all. Not a bit.  :-X

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2014, 05:13:18 PM »
Can you explain this comment to me? Isn't it more enjoyable to hit a 6 iron well and have it end up 10 feet from the hole then to hit it poorly into the greenside crap?

I personally would rather play very well and lose a close match than play poorly and beat someone who played worse...assuming we're talking about casual friendly matches.


Happy New Year to and yours Jim.

Sure its more enjoyable to stiff a 6 iron, or any iron for that matter, than it is to hit a crapper.  However, I am unwilling to use my limited golf time for practice to achieve this end because I find practicing boring, tedious and damn well silly for a 50 year old 9 capper.

If forced to choose, as you seem to want me to, I would rather enjoy myself than win or lose.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2014, 05:49:37 PM »

We came upon a 'forward-thinking' plan for our senior men's club championship. They play the middle tees on the front nine and move to the gold for the back, where it's some 450 yards shorter.  As a group, play is about 25 to 30 minutes faster and scores improve between 2 and 3 strokes.
...

Assuming 450 yards shorter still has to be walked, or carts that render the 450 yards insignificant. And assuming 2 to 3 shots means 10 shots for a foursome, then 25/10 is 2.5 minutes or more per shot. You are not dealing with a play it forward problem you are dealing with a glacial pace of play problem. Playing it forward really solved nothing.

On our course it can be 6 shots per player, so about one minute per shot, and we're not even taking into account the trouble they avoid from the shorter set-up. The 1st and 9th holes respectively play about 1.5 and 2 strokes harder on the front, and the par five 7th becomes a par 4.

We've been doing this about 5 years with approximately the same results.    



You said 2 to 3 shots, now you are saying 6. Which is it?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2014, 05:51:10 PM »
 8) Back in '92, an old marshall at my club (a NY transplant who liked to kick some player butt on pace of play), saw me out and about a lot after work and one day asked in passing if I'd ever broken par?  I said I'd come close from the 2nd tees but had never crossed that line, and played normally from the 3rd tees… he suggested to play each of the tees until I could match or break par and then move back; not to be punitive, as he knew we played all the courses in less than 3 hours walking, but to improve mentally.  Its a different game at around par, no to few mistakes tolerated… perhaps more pressure to the ego than money games.  

Dealt with the forward tees fairly quickly, took a little longer for the 2nd and then 3rd, but never could conquer the tips (4th tees) as a 5 index.  

I'll take being 1 under going to the 17th, the Devil's Bathtub, any day.
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2014, 05:52:16 PM »
I didn't know math and elapsed time differ on the coasts. Perhaps you can provide a tutorial Brent? ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Patrick_Mucci

Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2014, 06:33:58 PM »

Play it forward is the wrong motto, because beat your buddies should do it.

Birdies and pars are just nonsense noise that a very small percentage of golfers worry about.

Only if you consider 99 % a small percentage.


People should play match play and get rid of this me against the course nonsense.

People want to score better.
Match play only adds another tier to scoring.
And, if you play the golfer and not the hole, you can't be a very good match player.


It's me against my friend in a friendly match that culminates in the loser forking over a token amount and the winner buying refreshments in the clubhouse.

So, if I could caddy for your friend and tell him that I can, through course management and swing analysis, probably produce 6 more pars and birdies in his round, he won't be interested ?  ?  ?  You either have weird friends or non-golfers for friends.


Furthermore play if forward is the wrong motto, because it is based on the ignorance of a few players that GIR has some meaning to.

It does.
The more GIR, the greater your percentage of pars and birdies.
Unless you find it easier to make birdie from a bunker or water hazard or OB.


The high handicapper (average player) can play it forward and have little or no effect on GIR.

That's absolutely not true, in fact, it's moronic.


The high handicapper has trouble hitting it straight enough to do GIR from any range.

We're not talking about 50 handicaps.
High handicap to me is 16-24, very high, 25+


If you want the world to play golf, don't be suggesting to people that they can get GIR by playing it forward.

Not only GIR, but more pars and birdies.


If you want GIR for the high handicapper increase the par on every hole by one. He can then get close enough to the GIR in 1, 2, or 3 on previously par 3, 4, and 5 that he can get his GIR if par is 4, 5, and 6.

More moronic suggestions


Dostoyevsky wrote about the arrogance of the ignorant in "The Idiot" and boy did he get that right. ;D


Patrick_Mucci

Re: "Play it forward" is the wrong
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2014, 07:00:20 PM »
There are only two problems in golf. Selfishness and cheating.  The only solution is to isolate yourself from each.  A cocktail of extreme patience and brutal honesty will set you free from these types of golfers.  Of course one misstep and you could end up playing alone.

There's merit in what you say.

But, I had a friend who had an unusual perspective on cheaters.
He liked to play against cheaters because he felt that they were under-handicapped.
That their cheating resulted in them getting a lower handicap, one not commensurate with their abilities, and that the loss of shots due to cheating was sufficient for him to easily win the match.

He was a "hawkeye" once the match began, so his cheating opponent had little chance of winning.,


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