[Scott Wintersteen]

Fazio gets crushed on here and I don't necessarily understand it.  I think some of his designs do look manufactured but when he has a good site and puts in the time and effort he can end up with a good final product.  

[Jim Nugent]

Fazio gets crushed on here and I don't necessarily understand it.  I think some of his designs do look manufactured but when he has a good site and puts in the time and effort he can end up with a good final product.  

The knock here on Fazio is that he has the ability to produce strategic masterpieces -- but too often produces beautiful-looking courses that are a bit shallow, without strategic merit.  

Ballybunion Cashen takes a lot of hits, as nearly unplayable in spots.  Dismal White used to, for similar reasons, till they tweaked/changed the course.  

Valhalla is usually considered overrated.  So is Rich Harvest Farms.

[Sean_A]

Wentworth West - too difficult, no Colt left
Princes - individually good holes that are unmemorable together
Hankley Common - flat greens
The Castle Course - sooner play TOC
Gleneagles Nicklaus - why go to Gleneagles to play US golf
The Belfry - a field

The comments aren't my opinion, I've played all except for The Castle. Wentworth is a competition course now, Princes is like Troon to Prestwick, a very good course that lacks charm. I'm a massive Hankley fan, the Nicklaus course is out of context and finally The Belfry is in the hearts of European golfers as the scene of some great matches and memories.

Princes - Extremely underwhelming and visually very bleak. Nice foyer and history display, didn't enjoy the rest of it.

Castle Course. Loved it. Interesting and different. As a blank canvas, not that different to Fairmont Courses I would imagine. Great design makes it head and shoulders better. I think lots must turn up expecting or even wanting to hate it for daring to be new and expensive and not the Old Course. It is great fun in a lovely setting and presents so many options.


The Belfry, I liken as the golf course equivalent of Stephen Fry who I heard described as 'the stupid persons idea of what an intelligent person is'. The Belfry is the stupid persons idea of a top golf course.

Princes - very harsh evaluation.  There are a load of excellent holes and the Dunes 9 is a very, very good. 

Castle Course - green sites too harsh given elevation changes and wind.  Lets hope the powers that be continue to tweek the course - it needs it.  Plus, the lack of drainage is shocking.

Belfry - I don't really care for it, but its far from a bad course.  If the Belfry is bad, most courses are terrible.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Not sure about the cool part but from a Scottish perspective I notice that the Ayrshire courses with the possible exception of Prestwick and Western Gailes generally tend to get a lack of love. In particular Troon and Turnberry take a bit of a kicking which when you think of the quality of both courses bemuses me. Another terrific links that lacks the Brigadoon appeal and therefore tends to get trashed in any discussion of merit is Carnoustie.

Also generally speaking James Braid courses don't really get the kudos they perhaps deserve. The probable exception to that is Brora. Interesting that the Monarch's/Centenary/PGA/Nicklaus or whatever the hell its called now course at Gleneagles is now helping to improve the standing of the Kings course (and lesser extent Queens) by comparison.

However the single biggest mystery to me is why there aren't annual pilgrimages to the wonder that is Forfar. Shome mishtake shurely !

Niall   

[Ryan Coles]

Saunton, The Berkshire and Herbert Fowler don't seem to get as much attention on here as they deserve.

[Tom_Doak]

Not sure about the cool part but from a Scottish perspective I notice that the Ayrshire courses with the possible exception of Prestwick and Western Gailes generally tend to get a lack of love. In particular Troon and Turnberry take a bit of a kicking which when you think of the quality of both courses bemuses me. Another terrific links that lacks the Brigadoon appeal and therefore tends to get trashed in any discussion of merit is Carnoustie.   

There's a difference between respecting a course and loving it.  Not many disparage Carnoustie or Turnberry, though some do disparage Troon for its boring start.  But it's another thing to say we have to love a course just because it is full of good, tough holes.

Turnberry is a bit of an outlier in this group, because the charge there is that it achieves its high ranking partly based on the scenery, and many of the holes do not live up to that standard.

[Tom_Doak]

Saunton, The Berkshire and Herbert Fowler don't seem to get as much attention on here as they deserve.

Sure, but that's not the topic of this thread at all.  People aren't piling on those courses; they're just ignoring them because many haven't seen them.

[Brent Hutto]

I'm with Sean on thinking Princes is a fair bit better course than one might think from its lack of esteem on this forum. I suspect if it were tucked away 50 miles from any other decent links courses it might be considered a hidden gem. Being adjacent to Sandwich and close to Deal would make most courses seem a bit lackluster by comparison.

More generally speaking, I think it's not cool around here to like courses that "Don't take advantage of the dunes" often shortened to "flat". I truly enjoyed my day at Royal Birkdale for instance and think it's about as well-sorted, highly refined a championship course as one could ever hope to see. The fact that there are large-ish dunes on the property that do not have tee boxes or greens atop them does nothing to make the actual playing value of the course less than outstanding IMO.

There are probably other "flat" courses with fine turf, plenty of small-scale undulation and sufficient contour in play to provide a wonderful short-game experience that are none the less downgraded for not having numerous uphill, downhill or sidehill shots to be played.

[Sean_A]

There's a difference between respecting a course and loving it.[/quote]

Si

Ciao

[Paul Gray]

.......The Belfry, I liken as the golf course equivalent of Stephen Fry who I heard described as 'the stupid persons idea of what an intelligent person is'. The Belfry is the stupid persons idea of a top golf course.

Probably a fair comment re The Belfry but let's leave Peter Hitchens are his inane utterances out of this!

[Jim Nugent]

#10 at the Belfry looked like a great hole to me, when I watched it on TV during the Ryder Cup in the early 1990s.  Is it like that when you play it? 

[Adam Lawrence]

#10 at the Belfry looked like a great hole to me, when I watched it on TV during the Ryder Cup in the early 1990s.  Is it like that when you play it? 

If the course isn't sopping wet the tenth is a pretty cool short 4, although driving the green is a tall order for most ordinary golfers. 18 is a fine hole too. But the Belfry is a bit of a two hole course really.

[Niall C]

Not sure about the cool part but from a Scottish perspective I notice that the Ayrshire courses with the possible exception of Prestwick and Western Gailes generally tend to get a lack of love. In particular Troon and Turnberry take a bit of a kicking which when you think of the quality of both courses bemuses me. Another terrific links that lacks the Brigadoon appeal and therefore tends to get trashed in any discussion of merit is Carnoustie.   

There's a difference between respecting a course and loving it.  Not many disparage Carnoustie or Turnberry, though some do disparage Troon for its boring start.  But it's another thing to say we have to love a course just because it is full of good, tough holes.

Turnberry is a bit of an outlier in this group, because the charge there is that it achieves its high ranking partly based on the scenery, and many of the holes do not live up to that standard.

Never said you "have" to love those courses but still bemused at the lack of love anyway. I suspect Carnoustie would be tough at any time but Troon and Turnberry are by no means always a hard examination. Like all links they can be weather dependant on how the course plays. As for the charge that the first few holes at Troon are boring, that's another one that puzzles me. I suppose the problem is the opposite of Turnberry in that there's not enough dunes/exciting visual backdrops/plateau greens to please the cognoscenti.

Niall

[Andy Hodson]

Any "good" course in Texas

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