Courses with strict ''Pace of Play''

[Kevin_Reilly]

In the SF area, among public courses the pace of play at Gleneagles (9-hole course with tees set to accommodate an 18 hole round) is excellent.  I would credit the ethos of the current course manager who is following the lead of the previous manager the late Erik De Lambert.  The course attracts serious "golfers" who are mindful of pace of play.

On the private club side in SF, SF Club is a place where 4 hour rounds just don't happen.  Again it is the ethos of the club and slow players need not apply.  If you are a practice swinging, putt reading grinder, this isn't the club for you.

[Sean_A]

The British two ball clubs, like Rye and Huntercombe are the gold standard for pace of play. At Huntercombe, they say that if you consistently take more than three hours to play you'll get a strongly worded letter from the secretary telling you to get a move on!

Adam, so far as I am concerned, watching 70 year old members fly is the biggest incentive for me to kick it in gear.  I recall one time playing Rye with incredibly slow GCAers in front, the members behind pointed at one and said he wasn't walking with any purpose - I couldn't disagree considering we waited every single shot that day.  It was very embarassing.  Huntercombe, I swear the old boys don't putt out.  They seem to amble up the fairway then disappear to the next tee - its the damndest thing.  

Why haven't you joined Huntercombe?  Seems right up your alley.

Ciao

[Paul Gray]

Last summer, somewhat used to the less than considerate actions of cetain members at my club, my heart sank when a friend and I arrived at the first tee at Hindhead to be greeted by two older ladies (at a guess I would say septuagenarians) just about to tee off. It was a twilight round which I had been looking forward to enormously but suddenly I found myself imagining all sorts of hold ups as they bumped their tee shots 120 yards down the first......

We nearly kept up with them for five holes but, after the climb up to the sixth tee, all we saw of them was their distant silhouettes. I had hoped to run into them in the clubhouse afterwards as I was all set to buy them a drink but they were nowhere to be seen. Those two ladies will probably never know just how happy it made me to see them (or not) just getting on with playing golf.

[Adam Lawrence]

The British two ball clubs, like Rye and Huntercombe are the gold standard for pace of play. At Huntercombe, they say that if you consistently take more than three hours to play you'll get a strongly worded letter from the secretary telling you to get a move on!

Adam, so far as I am concerned, watching 70 year old members fly is the biggest incentive for me to kick it in gear.  I recall one time playing Rye with incredibly slow GCAers in front, the members behind pointed at one and said he wasn't walking with any purpose - I couldn't disagree considering we waited every single shot that day.  It was very embarassing.  Huntercombe, I swear the old boys don't putt out.  They seem to amble up the fairway then disappear to the next tee - its the damndest thing.  

Why haven't you joined Huntercombe?  Seems right up your alley.

Ciao

If I lived on the other side of Oxford I'd be begging them to let me in. As it is, given the terrible traffic round here, it's just too far from home. I'd end up playing five rounds a year there and freaking out at the cost.

[Lou_Duran]

In line with Paul's story, Lynn Shackelford and I visited Denham GC on our last day in London following the 2011 Buda.  It was to be a leisurely round, capping a busy week of golf, getting around in trains and taxis before heading to the U.S. next morning.  We had a grey day, with very light rain, around 60°; the course mostly to ourselves.

As we we're teeing off at noon, two elderly couples towing trollies and two dogs approached the first tee.  Knowing the fast play culture in the UK, I half-asked Lynn if we can stay well in front of them, and, I as recall, he replied in the affirmative.  We did fine for the first two or three holes, but soon they were dogging us (not in an aggressive way, but club ready in hand, balls in the air as soon as we we're off).  We left them through, and after a couple of holes, never saw them again until we got to the clubhouse where they seemed to be having a fine time over drinks.

BTW, Lynn and I walked the shortish but unfamiliar Denham in 3:20, probably having slowed our pace a bit after the couples went through.  The old folks played a game with which I am not familiar (it was actually a two-ball, one couple against the other, players of the subsequent shots moving forward to the landing areas before balls were in the air).

BTW2, we heard that the members of Liphook were furious because of our slow play.  Both rounds of our 4-ball (one best ball, the other singles) finished in four hours.  In the U.S., club matches often take five, six hours.

Colonial CC in Fort Worth has a good fast pace culture.  Busy as it is, it seldom takes four hours to play there.  It is mostly a function of WILL and setting the expectation that PROPER golf is played with purpose and alacrity.  

[Tim Bert]

Solve the problem with anything other than rangers. I would rather playin five hours than have a ranger following me around.  The rangers are far and away my least favorite part of the Bandon experience. They always seem unaware of the situation - did you have an open tee time in front of you??? Maybe it doesn't make sense for you to be on the prior groups heels after the 2nd hole.

Not to mention that pace of play there isn't that fast anyway so spending their time on a group that would play a 4:15 pace isn't speeding up the system. Maybe they should. Use their extensive data to track Each groups playing time without any rangers and then deploy their drill sergeants individually into groups that took longer than 4:20 to play.  Goodness knows there are enough of them roaming around out there to accomplish this.

"Yes, Mr Jones, you played slowly this morning. You will be paired with Walt. He will be your personal motivation to never play slow again."

[BCowan]

Great post Lou, you are confirming my hutch that i need to move to another country.  I wish my dogs were well behaved so I could take them on a golf course, they would love it. 

[Lou_Duran]

I wish my dogs were well behaved so I could take them on a golf course, they would love it. 

In England, they have bowls with water around the clubhouse (one place in the locker room) for the dogs.  But for the weather, I'd be happy joining the YANK and Rihc in the UK.

Tim Bert,

You may have heard of my encounter with the incredibly unaware marshal (at Pacific Dunes, the two green hole as I recall) during the King Putter in 2011.  Apparently, it was the talk of the caddie shack and the large table of GCAers when I joined the group that evening.  We've been waiting around most of the day and get to the tee as the group in front of us is starting to walk off.  A marshal approaches me and says something to the effect "you guys need to pick up your pace".  I look at the elderly guy (probably close to my age as I think about it) extend my hand toward the guys in front of us and say (probably not too cheerfully) "are you kidding me!".  He was not, and obviously didn't know much about golf or his job.  Of course, what went around the table is that I dressed the guy down in no uncertain terms including using salty language, which, of course, is something I never do.  When paying $$$$ to play a course, I at least expect some competence and courtesy from the staff, and in this area, Bandon has occasionally fallen woefully short (don't get me started on a couple caddie experiences I've had there).  A problem is that a significant number of Bandon employees lack a golf tradition.   And contrary to popular belief, not everyone in Bandon (the town and area) is all that pleased with the resort and the sort of folks it brings to their little part of the world.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin D,

I don't recall the exact amount of time, but permitting Mulligans added significantly to the time of play over the course of a day.

Pat,

I don't disagree at all. Was just highlighting the one way our policy differs with yours.

The rest is nearly identical and highly effective. Many people argue that these policies can only work at a private course, but I don't see why a public course can't restrict tee times of slow players as well.

My point on the mulligans is that, with a par 5 1st hole with a blind tee shot, if you didn't allow mulligans, players would still need to hit provisionals on highly errant tee shots. So the net effect of allowing mulligans isn't terribly great at my course.

That said, I don't think banning mulligans is a bad policy - even at my course. It would certainly instill, from the get go, an attitude of quick play.


Kevin,

Once the membership understands the policy, and that it will be strictly enforced, play speeds up dramatically.

And, the beauty of the system is that it's non-confrontational.

Just time out, time in and the differentials..

[Sean_A]

The British two ball clubs, like Rye and Huntercombe are the gold standard for pace of play. At Huntercombe, they say that if you consistently take more than three hours to play you'll get a strongly worded letter from the secretary telling you to get a move on!

Adam, so far as I am concerned, watching 70 year old members fly is the biggest incentive for me to kick it in gear.  I recall one time playing Rye with incredibly slow GCAers in front, the members behind pointed at one and said he wasn't walking with any purpose - I couldn't disagree considering we waited every single shot that day.  It was very embarassing.  Huntercombe, I swear the old boys don't putt out.  They seem to amble up the fairway then disappear to the next tee - its the damndest thing.  

Why haven't you joined Huntercombe?  Seems right up your alley.

Ciao

If I lived on the other side of Oxford I'd be begging them to let me in. As it is, given the terrible traffic round here, it's just too far from home. I'd end up playing five rounds a year there and freaking out at the cost.

Excuses - the English are full of em'.  Don't you think of anybody other than yourself?  

Sweet Lou

Talking of dawg bowls, I recall at Woking where a woman walking dogs saw my Burnham jumper.  She went on about looking for a good course to join in the West Country and asked me if dogs were allowed on the course.  I doubt it was my bewildered repl.  She instantly whipped back with it won't do and off she went down the path with dog mate.  

Ciao

[ChipRoyce]

Chip,

The system we developed at my club in NJ was incredibly effective....(snip)....
And, all but a few enjoyed playing at a faster pace.

That's awesome - our club is privately owned by a benevolent, mildly dictatorial, obscenely rich Billionaire. The club culture, however, is less collegial and more like a high-end resort.

We don't have speed of play issues except during tournaments and the odd, occasional group on weekends.

Hearing of programs such as that where members police themselves gives me a warm and fuzzy, both for its impact as well as being integral into the club culture.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chip,

The reason we decided to give all members of the group a slow play letter is because we didn't want to drill down into the minutia to see who slowed the group up and on what hole/s.

And, by extending the slow play letter to the entire group, it created an internal atmosphere, within the group, where the faster players, encouraged the slower players to play faster.

It's a simple and very effective system.

[Paul Gray]

Lou,

An excellent tale. I have to ask, did you call the golfers at Liphook through? If so, they can have no complaints.

Pace of play is often a misunderstood concept, in part because the powers that be have become fixated with telling everyone to keep up with the group in front. Whilst it's desirable to attempt to keep up with golfers in front it isn't always possible. After all, why expect a four ball to be as quick as a one or two ball? The key, in my humble opinion, is simply to ensure you don't get in anyone else's way. No ifs, no buts, no "but I thought we were playing at a reasonable pace." Just step aside if you are caught and there is room to breath in front of you.

[Paul Jones]

I was a member at a club in Atlanta and they had a flag system (Marshall that rode around in a cart with 3 different color flags): Green - Good, Yellow - Speed Up, Red Flag - Pick Up and Proceed to Next Hole.  The course was owned by one owner and no board, so if anyone wanted to complain, they had to go straight to him.

[BCowan]

Paul

   I think a private club that is owned by one or a few people is the best way to go.  I think they run much smoother and properly.  What do you think?

[Paul Jones]

It depends on the owner and the club. There are Pros and Cons for each.

[Bill_Yates]

Lou,
For you and others who are comparing the pace of play in the U.S. to that found in Great Britain and Ireland, you might be interested in reading the article I wrote for GOLF Magazine a few years ago. Enjoy!

Bill

http://www.pacemanager.com/uploaded_files/fck/files/a-wee-bit-quicker.pdf

[Bob_Garvelink]

Lou,
For you and others who are comparing the pace of play in the U.S. to that found in Great Britain and Ireland, you might be interested in reading the article I wrote for GOLF Magazine a few years ago. Enjoy!

Bill

http://www.pacemanager.com/uploaded_files/fck/files/a-wee-bit-quicker.pdf

Bill,

Great article with some fantastic points about link style courses.  Additionally, how many times have you seen a foursome look for a ball for 3 minutes and nobody in the group continues to play?

[Bill_Yates]

Bob, funny you mentioned that. For preparation in writing the article, I visited Prestwick along with several other British courses. While I was walking the course alone to observe play and do some measuring, a group of four members approached me and invited me to walk along with their game. I gladly agreed to do so.

Two were playing a best ball match against the other two. On the sixteenth tee, one player striped it down the center and the other three hit into the gorse on the right of the fairway.  When they arrived at their balls, the player in the fairway asked, "Do we have any competition?" The others said "No," picked up their balls and without even going to the green, conceded the hole and all four headed to the seventeenth tee.

Would you ever see that in the U.S.?  I think not.

[Tim_Weiman]

Best experience I had on this subject was at Saunton in the UK. I played as a single teeing off behind four members playing for the winter club championship.

I let the group clear the first green - a par four - before I teed off.

I caught them on the 16th hole and had to wait for about two minutes.

Back in the clubhouse a four members came up to me and apologized for the delay.

Even when playing for their club championship Saunton members get it.

[Sean_A]

Additionally, how many times have you seen a foursome look for a ball for 3 minutes and nobody in the group continues to play?

This really gets my goat.  Its far better to keep one guy hitting on a rotaional basis while three look.  Its especially stupid when the furthest guy from the green goes to his ball, realizes there is a lost ball issue and then instead of playing his shot first, walks over to help look for the ball.  I realize he is trying to be polite, but keeping play moving is more polite. More often than not, the ball will be found without all 4 having to look.  

Bill - it isn't just links which tend to have short green to tee walks, most of the older courses do as well.  

Ciao

[A.G._Crockett]

Chip,

The system we developed at my club in NJ was incredibly effective.

No rangers, no warnings, no on course confrontations.

No Mulligans on the first/tenth tee.

The clock starts when the last golfer tees off on # 1, the clock stops when the last golfer walks off the 18th green.

The round must be in less than 4 hours AND you can't be more than 8-10 minutes behind the group in front of you.

Violate either and the ENTIRE foursome gets a slow play letter.

Any golfer getting a second slow play letter can't tee off before 2:00 on the next two Friday, Saturday's and Sundays that he's playing.

Get a third letter, it's a month.

Get a forth letter, it's the rest of the season.

Within two weeks times went from 4:40 to 3:50.
And, all but a few enjoyed playing at a faster pace.

The only thing that the Rivermont system adds to this is clocks spread around the course that are to the pace of play standards; if your tee time is 10:00 and you are exactly on pace every clock will read 10:00 when you arrive at that green or tee.  Groups can see instantly where they stand to the minute, and it takes a lot of pressure off the staff.

[BCowan]

Is this sarcasm or are you actually giving consideration to moving to another country because the "pace of play" of a round of golf is not fast enough for your tastes?

If serious, this is indeed a first for me.

Happy New Year  Mr Cronan!  Pace of Play is seldom an issue at the muni I play!

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Neguri (Bilbao, Spain) is the course where pace of play is fastest in Spain. Usually a fourball will take 3.30 and rounds over 4.00 are unheard of. Once you finish and you enter the locker room for a shower, the first question you get asked is: how long did your round take? People rarely ask about the score, just interested in playing faster than the other groups...

[Mike Policano]

Bill,

I like your Prestwick story. How much does the USGA requirement to post all scores (as opposed to the R&A) contribute to slow play because picking up early is not a condoned option?

Of course it raises other questions about the USGA handicap requirements like requiring scores be posted from friendly Nassaus which are match play games not stroke play.